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Donuts for Bobsprit--am I trolling?
Flying Tadpole wrote: Now, is this a troll, Bobsprit? Or am I describing reality? Let's see how fast you respond. -- The clock's ticking Bobsprit! Your last response to me was under three minutes, so there's nothing wrong with the internet paths tonight! Where are you searching for the answer? -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
DSK wrote: Flying Tadpole wrote: Doug, I tried and tried, because the catyawl is supposed to be ideal for this, but the longest I've ever been able to beat with the rudder free and stay on course is a minute or so, then some combination of wave and wind will knock the boat a small but critical amount, the free rudder will swing a bit, and suddenly we're doing donuts. It might be that because of the hard chines and/or the leeboards, you get enough momentary Z-axis torque to overcome corrective feedback from the rig. Maybe if you actively sheeted the mizzen, you could get slightly better results (or at least larger diameter donuts)? Well, yes, but I thought we were discussing a boat already sail-balanced. I can easily sail Lady Kate with the rudder free if I'm playing the mizzen all the time, but what I want to do is set the boat up and have her sail herself. She won't do it for long, unless the tiller is actually lashed (then she'll sail herself better to windward than I can) Re the chines, yes, i think that contributes, with a secondary contribution from the combination of the extreme shoal draft and the overhangs bow and stern. (We're not talking conditions big enough for her to dig the bow in and yaw). THe leeboards though are locked laterally, bilgeboards rather than leeboards, and should have no more or less contribution than an equivalent fin keel. -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
Flying Tadpole wrote:
Doug, I tried and tried, because the catyawl is supposed to be ideal for this, but the longest I've ever been able to beat with the rudder free and stay on course is a minute or so, then some combination of wave and wind will knock the boat a small but critical amount, the free rudder will swing a bit, and suddenly we're doing donuts. It might be that because of the hard chines and/or the leeboards, you get enough momentary Z-axis torque to overcome corrective feedback from the rig. Maybe if you actively sheeted the mizzen, you could get slightly better results (or at least larger diameter donuts)? (I don't mind doing donuts while I'm at the tiller, even if I did bust the mainsheet track buffers doing it once.) So I lash tillers whatever. I suspect tht if I totally lost my rudder, it would be a lot easier to sail with sails alone than with a rudder still there but swinging free... Usually the rudder swinging free creates more problems in trying to steer, and also stresses the boat/rudder/rudder post unduly. Locking it in place is much better. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Donuts for Bobsprit--am I trolling?
Yoo hoo? Bobsprit??
-- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
Doug... the topic was based on Bob's claim to be able to set or trim sails
so that a boat can hold and maintain course despite the rudder being free to swing without restriction up wind from a beam to a close reach. I called bull****. Now if you add a drogue to the stern that alone changes the "dynamics" and emergency steering systems jury rigged would no doubt alter the outcome to allow progress. It may even be believable that with sufficent and constant adjustment of sails in flat seas and steady light wind that you can split the swings to make progress upwind..... but trim to sail to a point without a rudder.... I can't see it. CM "DSK" wrote in message ... | Capt. Mooron wrote: | I'l try it again as well... I might get it to work on a reach if I | continuously adjust and trim the sails.... I'm not holding my breath. Has | anyone else managed to sail upwing with a rudder swinging free for more than | what would constitute normal momentum over a short period.??? | | | | | | The navigator© wrote: | | Yes but it requires a flat sea. | | | Not really, but if there is a sea running then it requires both skill & patience. | Can you say "dynamic equilibrium"? C'mon, say it with me now. It's really just a | fancy word for saying that the boat will swing one way, then the other, but will | be able to be steered on a course averaging between the swings. | | The trickiest part is to keep the boat close to the wind without getting thrown | through stays by some combination of gust & wave; or if the circumstances are such | that this is going to happen anyway, to coax the boat back onto the desired | course. | | I'm having a hard time imagining circumstances where one could not at least | immobilize the rudder, much less rig some type of emergency steering. In one | Bermuda Race a few years ago, one boat that lost it's rudder used a bunk lashed to | the spinnaker pole as an emergency rudder & tiller. | | Fresh Breezes- Doug King | | |
Hey Donal
Doug... the topic was based on Bob's claim to be able to set or trim sails
so that a boat can hold and maintain course despite the rudder being free to swing without restriction up wind from a beam to a close reach. I called bull****. Stop arguing. I'll provide a video. RB |
Donuts for Bobsprit--am I trolling?
I think he's in the bathroom discussing his "vertigo" on the big white
telephone... CM "Flying Tadpole" wrote in message ... | Yoo hoo? Bobsprit?? | | -- | Flying Tadpole | | ------------------------- | Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! | http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
"CANDChelp" wrote in message | Stop arguing. I'll provide a video. KILL JOY! CM |
Donuts for Bobsprit--am I trolling?
Donal wrote: "Flying Tadpole" wrote in message ... Subject: Sorry, Taddy... Date: 25 Jul 2003 13:00:33 GMT From: (CANDChelp) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sailing.asa I haven't the time for involved trolls today. We're leaving for Sandy Hook later today after a stop in Jersey City to help launch a friend's boat. Then it's out into the Atlantic....there had better be wind! RB Bobsprit demonstrates his inability to decide whether the described manouevre was reality or just a troll, and 40 minutes later flees. Well done, Tadpole. Regards Donal -- Thank you. -- Flying Tadpole, bowing out for the night. ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
Of you and your ugly wife?
"CANDChelp" wrote in message ... Doug... the topic was based on Bob's claim to be able to set or trim sails so that a boat can hold and maintain course despite the rudder being free to swing without restriction up wind from a beam to a close reach. I called bull****. Stop arguing. I'll provide a video. RB |
Hey Donal
KILL JOY!
I know, I know...but I will be heading out shortly and make the video. I should have it available by Monday. RB |
Hey Donal
I know, I know...but I will be heading out shortly and make the video. I
should have it available by Monday. What's the plan, man? This is not an attack, or even the groundwork for an attack. Just curious as to where you're going and when. Also, you should take a 360 deg shot when out of sight of land to put all us doubters to shame. Too bad it isn't next weekend, I am moving the boat from NJ to Sag Harbor and we could have had our long awaited race. |
Hey Donal
Also, you should take
a 360 deg shot when out of sight of land to put all us doubters to shame. Too bad it isn't next weekend, I am moving the boat from NJ to Sag Harbor and we could have had our long awaited race. We're leaving tonight, taking the river to Jersey City. My friend's Tripp 32 gets launched there, so we'll take his slip and help him in the morning. Then it's over to Sandy Hook, I think. We have no specific plans to be "anywhere" but sailing. We may actually head your way, depending on the winds. We don't have to be back until Sunday night, but we have a longer weekend next week if we don't make it "far." I hear Sunday will be a gift of strong air from a front moving into the area. Anyone in NY harbor tomorrow or near Coney Island? We'll be sailing...I'll monitor channel 72. Capt RB |
Hey Donal
Also, you should take
a 360 deg shot when out of sight of land to put all us doubters to shame. Too bad it isn't next weekend, I am moving the boat from NJ to Sag Harbor and we could have had our long awaited race. We're leaving tonight, taking the river to Jersey City. My friend's Tripp 32 gets launched there, so we'll take his slip and help him in the morning. Then it's over to Sandy Hook, I think. We have no specific plans to be "anywhere" but sailing. We may actually head your way, depending on the winds. We don't have to be back until Sunday night, but we have a longer weekend next week if we don't make it "far." I hear Sunday will be a gift of strong air from a front moving into the area. Anyone in NY harbor tomorrow or near Coney Island? We'll be sailing...I'll monitor channel 72. Good on ya. I was over at the UN during lunch today watching the boats going past, daydreaming about when we will take off. Funny how all the sailboats seem to time the current right, but the motorboats don't seem to care, even if it means slogging through a nasty adverse current. Anyway, it looks like a good weekend for you. S - SW winds won't help you get down the jersey coast, but will make for a nice sail back. |
Hey Donal
"DSK" wrote in message
... "Capt. Mooron" wrote: Doug... the topic was based on Bob's claim to be able to set or trim sails so that a boat can hold and maintain course despite the rudder being free to swing without restriction up wind from a beam to a close reach. I called bull****. Well, as much as it pains me to look like I'm agreeing with Bubbles (who is, to coin a phrase, nuts), there is a tiny kernel of truth in his claim. Some boats, when handled properly by some sailors, can do it. There are some boats, yes. As I reported my old full keel boat would hold a close reach all afternoon with a "floating" tiller. The real issue was whether a more modern fin keeler, in particular a C&C 32, would do it. Now if you add a drogue to the stern that alone changes the "dynamics" and emergency steering systems jury rigged would no doubt alter the outcome to allow progress. Probably not to windward though. Might be able to make a couple points VMG to windward but certainly not anywhere near close hauled with a drogue. Try it if you don't believe me. It may even be believable that with sufficent and constant adjustment of sails in flat seas and steady light wind that you can split the swings to make progress upwind..... but trim to sail to a point without a rudder.... I can't see it. Like I said, it depends on the boat and very very much depends on the sailor. Some boats won't, just like some girls. Sail to a point? Only if you're not real picky about how small a point. It gets much easier if the rudder can be locked in place, preferably at or close to center. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Hey Donal
There are some boats, yes. As I reported my old full keel boat would hold a
close reach all afternoon with a "floating" tiller. The real issue was whether a more modern fin keeler, in particular a C&C 32, would do it. She will indeed. So did Ghost. Please stand by as the video will be ready shortly. RB |
Hey Donal
Jeff Morris wrote:
There are some boats, yes. As I reported my old full keel boat would hold a close reach all afternoon with a "floating" tiller. The real issue was whether a more modern fin keeler, in particular a C&C 32, would do it. Well, I only have experience with a few fin keelers that would do it, and it might be partially due to stiff steering. But I have sailed a lot of centerboard boats that would. There's a problem translating this to big-boat sailing though, usually one cannot shift crew weight to heel the boat 15 degrees to windward when desired for steering. Maybe this is how Bubbles does it? DSK |
Hey Donal
I've sailed many dozens of centerboard boats - I can't imagine one that would sail with a
free tiller without some active control of weight and sails. In fact, many centerboard boats can be sailed without a rudder. But this is not the same as tracking a straight line unattended for and extended distance. "DSK" wrote in message ... Jeff Morris wrote: There are some boats, yes. As I reported my old full keel boat would hold a close reach all afternoon with a "floating" tiller. The real issue was whether a more modern fin keeler, in particular a C&C 32, would do it. Well, I only have experience with a few fin keelers that would do it, and it might be partially due to stiff steering. But I have sailed a lot of centerboard boats that would. There's a problem translating this to big-boat sailing though, usually one cannot shift crew weight to heel the boat 15 degrees to windward when desired for steering. Maybe this is how Bubbles does it? DSK |
Hey Donal
Jeff Morris wrote:
I've sailed many dozens of centerboard boats - I can't imagine one that would sail with a free tiller without some active control of weight and sails. Right. That's exactly what it takes.... active & skilled control of the boat using trim of both weight and sails. Did anybody say otherwise? In fact, many centerboard boats can be sailed without a rudder. But this is not the same as tracking a straight line unattended for and extended distance. Right again, but I never claimed I could "track a straight line unattended for an extended distance" with the rudder swinging free. It seems you're looking for something that is not here. Maybe a soul that has achieved Nirvana can sail along a perfectly straight course with no hand on the helm, just through sheer virtue & force of personality. However, I doubt anybody hanging around this newsgroup is there yet. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Hey Donal
"DSK" wrote in message | Right again, but I never claimed I could "track a straight line unattended for an extended | distance" with the rudder swinging free. It seems you're looking for something that is not | here. That's exactly the assumption I am contesting. Bob stated clearly he can accomplish this feat with sail trim alone and that's the reason I called Bull****. No doubt you can get some progress in optimim conditions... but in no way can I see a boat sailing to weather with a free helm... you'd have to have neutral helm to even approach to accomplish that. Weather helm would make short work of the effort. CM |
Hey Donal
Bob tends to take something he heard someone say and then apply it
incorrectly: General to specific or vice-versa. -- Using Virtual Access http://www.soft-shop.com Sent using Virtual Access 5.51 - download your freeware copy now http://www.atlantic-coast.com/downloads/vasetup.exe |
Hey Donal
"DSK" wrote
| Right again, but I never claimed I could "track a straight line unattended for an extended | distance" with the rudder swinging free. It seems you're looking for something that is not | here. "Capt. Mooron" wrote: That's exactly the assumption I am contesting. Bob stated clearly he can accomplish this feat with sail trim alone and that's the reason I called Bull****. Ah so. Well, Bubbles is nuts. I very rarely read his posts and skipped that one. I thought the thread was talking about simply getting the boat to go where you want. No doubt you can get some progress in optimim conditions... but in no way can I see a boat sailing to weather with a free helm... you'd have to have neutral helm to even approach to accomplish that. Weather helm would make short work of the effort. Well, weather helm can be negated or exaggerated. I think that you're making too much of it, many boats can be sailed towards a destination with a free swinging rudder. That doesn't mean it has to track perfectly straight along the way. And a locked rudder makes it much easier. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Hey Donal
Peter Wiley wrote: Not to buy into this, because my expertise is zero, but Tom Colvin says and claims to have demonstrated that he can sail one of his schooner rigged designs, balanced, on all points, without a rudder, by proper sail trim. Given that he's now nearly 80 I'm inclined to believe him. What, old folks have greater credibility, just because of longevity? Note that his hulls are cruising designs, not fin keeled obsolete/failed racing designs recycled as cruiser/racers. Do I detect some bitterness in your tone? Anyway, a boat that sails well is never obsolete. The sea hasn't changed. BTW the debate wasn't whether a boat can be balanced by sail (at which a long keeled schooner would excel), but whether it could do so with the helm swinging free, a more difficult proposition. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Hey Donal
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 21:16:21 -0400, DSK
wrote: Peter Wiley wrote: Not to buy into this, because my expertise is zero, but Tom Colvin says and claims to have demonstrated that he can sail one of his schooner rigged designs, balanced, on all points, without a rudder, by proper sail trim. Given that he's now nearly 80 I'm inclined to believe him. What, old folks have greater credibility, just because of longevity? Nope, the fact that he's been sailing, designing & building boats longer than most of us have been alive, let alone sailing. Note that his hulls are cruising designs, not fin keeled obsolete/failed racing designs recycled as cruiser/racers. Do I detect some bitterness in your tone? Hell, no. I have a set of building plans for a Saugeen Witch, all I lack is the time & shed to build it and I'm working on the shed. I don't own or want to own a fin keel cruiser/racer or racer/cruiser. In the future I may change my mind - I'm not hampered by consistency. Nothing to do with their sailing performance either, more to do with working on them/hauling without a good marine railway and sailing in thin water. Like everything else made, different styles of boat have different mixes of strengths & weaknesses - there is rarely any 'better' or 'worse' until you define the intended use. Anyway, a boat that sails well is never obsolete. The sea hasn't changed. Couldn't agree more. BTW the debate wasn't whether a boat can be balanced by sail (at which a long keeled schooner would excel), but whether it could do so with the helm swinging free, a more difficult proposition. Yeah, Doug, I caught that. Peter Wiley |
Hey Donal
What, old folks have greater credibility, just because of longevity?
Peter Wiley wrote: Nope, the fact that he's been sailing, designing & building boats longer than most of us have been alive, let alone sailing. Agreed. Respect for elders is actually a very positive value... usually an Oriental stereotype, but our culture certainly has it too. ... I have a set of building plans for a Saugeen Witch, Excellent boat. I have a booklet on her that my father got from Tom Colvin decades ago. .... all I lack is the time & shed to build it and I'm working on the shed. I don't own or want to own a fin keel cruiser/racer or racer/cruiser. In the future I may change my mind - I'm not hampered by consistency. Nothing to do with their sailing performance either, more to do with working on them/hauling without a good marine railway and sailing in thin water. Like everything else made, different styles of boat have different mixes of strengths & weaknesses - there is rarely any 'better' or 'worse' until you define the intended use. Definitely agreed, and this is something that most people gloss over (or ignore completely). The reason why so many people have fin-keel racer/cruisers is not out of conscious choice, but rather because they have have been mass produced for two generations now. They are cheap and plentiful and familiar. Most of them also suffer from most of the ills of any product intended for mass consumption. Disregarding the marketing blitzes associated with one brand or another, some of them are still quite good boats. There are some things that none of them will ever do, like stand up on their own on a tidal grid for bottom work, or go to windward against a chop without loud thumps & crashes, or have the easy motion of a heavy full keeler (although some of the wing keels damp motion in heave & pitch nicely). Needless to say, like some other mass-produced items, some fin-keel racer/cruisers are total sacks of ****, yet were marketed successfully anyway. Some were made from molds of racing designs that were "successful" due to some quirk in rating rules, not because they sailed well. I think this is why so many discerning sailors, folks who are knowledgable of a wider range of sailing craft, hold their noses at the very suggestion of fin keels or the term "racer/cruiser." But it's not a valid endictment against the whole genre (BTW Peter I don't mean to accuse you of this, I'm just waxing philosophical over 2nd cup of coffee). BTW the debate wasn't whether a boat can be balanced by sail (at which a long keeled schooner would excel), but whether it could do so with the helm swinging free, a more difficult proposition. Yeah, Doug, I caught that. OK, wasn't sure. I missed it first time around. My first thought was "WTF would anybody do that?!?" then the slower memory cells kicked in and I remembered a few times I had done it. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Hey Donal
The Captains Nemesis wrote in message ... Should I make an offer http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....75&category=20 30 Better than the Morgan I've been looking at? Wow! That car ooozes a degree of class that will really suit you! Go for it Oz. You should check these cars out. I think that you would really feel at home in one of these .. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/england/1809106.stm Regards Donal -- |
Hey Donal
The Captains Nemesis wrote in message ... On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 19:05:54 -0000, "Donal" wrote: Wow! That car ooozes a degree of class that will really suit you! Go for it Oz. Great looking beast. Do you know why it was designated GT40? No.... but I have an awful feeling that you would like to enlighten me. Feel free, but bear in mind that I am not really interested in cars. Ahh yes, My wife looked at one of these http://www.smartstore.uk.com/ but felt uncomfortable sitting so far forward so she's decided to stich with theMitsubishi. They are very suitable for women who like to park. Regards Donal -- |
Hey Donal
No.... but I have an awful feeling that you would like to enlighten me.
Feel free, but bear in mind that I am not really interested in cars. Or boats. It shows. RB |
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