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Hey Donal
Yes well the unlashed and free swinging part is the point I have trouble
with. As I've stated to Bob.... I have never seen it done... I have not been able to do it myself and I doubt it can be done unless the fin keeled vessel is specially designed or modified to allow it. I certainly can't picture a C&C 32 managing to do it... and I've offered a challenge to Bob to provide video footage... which he has kindly agreed to do. CM "Oz1" wrote in message ... | On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:06:45 -0300, "Capt. Mooron" | wrote: | | Yeah... sure Oz.... a fin keeler that makes way upwind on sail set alone | with the tiller free to swing..... sounds like a bare poles sailing story | to me. | | CM | | Missed the unlashed! | Still for a few minutes at a time it is possible on a well | tuned/trimmed boat with no lashing. | | | Oz1...of the 3 twins. | I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
Hey Donal
Maybe it was only one second. There was a definite delay.
Are you insane? For the rudder not to have an instant perceptable effect, Beneteau would be guilty of the all-time worst boat design since the Mac26x. RB |
Hey Donal
Properly trimmed sails will ballance the boat and rudder.
huh? |
Hey Donal
I've sailed for about 10 minutes hands off on a C&C 36 and
a C&C 34. Eventually, the course started changing back and forth enough to warrant taking back the helm from the sea. "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ... Yes... I've never seen a fin keeler that would allow the helm to be left unlashed or unstopped and make way upwind with the helm free. It won't happen... not in a month of Sundays. I could care less what trim you claimed to have.... it will round up or fall off..... but it will not make ground to the waypoint. CM "CANDChelp" wrote in message ... | I call Bull****... it can't be done on any fin keeler! | | I hope you're not serious. | | RB |
Hey Donal
"CANDChelp" wrote in message ... Maybe it was only one second. There was a definite delay. Are you insane? For the rudder not to have an instant perceptable effect, Beneteau would be guilty of the all-time worst boat design since the Mac26x. Did I sound impressed?? Sheesh! The mainsheet was controlled by a winch on the coachroof, there was no travellor, the steering was crap, etc. etc. Bear in mind that this was an 11 year old design. You probably wouldn't have noticed anything amiss. Regards Donal -- |
Hey Donal
100% true. Properly trimmed sails will ballance the boat and rudder.
RB No kidding.....what a revelation! Yup. To some. RB |
Hey Donal
Bear in mind that this was an 11 year old design. You probably wouldn't
have noticed anything amiss. Yes, I remember those "slow rudder" designs from the late 80's and early 90's. Donal, you are INSANE. RB |
Hey Donal
According to his response to Loco, it's hi-tech compared to his boat.
-- ---- Steve S/V Pony Express "Donal" wrote in message ... Bear in mind that this was an 11 year old design. You probably wouldn't have noticed anything amiss. Regards Donal -- |
Hey Donal
According to his response to Loco, it's hi-tech compared to his boat.
Hey, Steve...got any of those slow acting rudders??!!! Maybe you can help out Donal like you helped poor scotty with his boat choice! "If Scotty was interested in resale he bought the wrong boat." Bwahaahahahahaha! RB |
Hey Donal
"CANDChelp" wrote in message ... According to his response to Loco, it's hi-tech compared to his boat. Hey, Steve...got any of those slow acting rudders??!!! Maybe you can help out Donal like you helped poor scotty with his boat choice! "If Scotty was interested in resale he bought the wrong boat." Bwahaahahahahaha! Bob, I hope that you are not trying to divert attention away from your poor performance in this thread. Let's get back onto the subject. Are you saying that all rudders, regardless of sizem will produce an immediate course change when pushed full over? Regards Donal -- |
Hey Donal
Let's get back onto the subject. Are you saying that all rudders,
regardless of sizem will produce an immediate course change when pushed full over? I'm saying that a two second delay will bring about a perceptable change right away. Two seconds and then the boat turned? Oh, Okay, Donal!!! RB |
Hey Donal
immediate course change when pushed full
over? Uh, dopey....now you're claiming you steered HARD OVER?? Lock to lock? Were you aware of where the rudder was? Oh, okay!!! Bwahahahahahaha! RB |
Hey Donal
"CANDChelp" wrote in message ... immediate course change when pushed full over? Uh, dopey....now you're claiming you steered HARD OVER?? Lock to lock? Were you aware of where the rudder was? That wasn't a claim. It was a question. Do you feel able to answer it? Regards Donal -- |
Hey Donal
Were you
aware of where the rudder was? That wasn't a claim. It was a question. Do you feel able to answer it? No one can answer your questions. We just learned that you "sailed" the boat under power 1st!!!! Anything else you want to add? Was the bottom dirty? Was the keel bent? Was there a white squall? Nope! Just a lot of white lies after you fouled yourself!!! Bwahahahahahaha! RB |
Hey Donal
Sop you effectively sailed a circle with the helm free and using only the
sails to make progress despite constant adjustment of the set.... and did so for 45 minutes. My question is how much of that time was spent going to wind ward, or making point or even if any of that time allowed you to keep a steady course or compass bearing. I will admit now that I have not as yet found an adequate sail set or trim that will keep even my full keeler tracking to a compass bearing upwind with the tiller free. CM "Donal" wrote in message ... | | "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message | ... | Yes... I've never seen a fin keeler that would allow the helm to be left | unlashed or unstopped and make way upwind with the helm free. It won't | happen... not in a month of Sundays. I could care less what trim you | claimed | to have.... it will round up or fall off..... but it will not make ground | to | the waypoint. | | | Yon can steer Setanta by constantly trimming the sails. Last year I sailed | her for 45 minutes with the tiller left free. The wind was about 10 kts and | dropping. At the end we ended up pointing almost dead downwind, and I had | to use the tiller at that point. | | | | Regards | | | Donal | -- | | |
Hey Donal
Jeff it is of paramount importance here to stress that Bob's claim
specifically states a rudder that is allowed to swing free, unlashed and not helmed with no auto pilot engaged. There is no way an Irwin 30 could make way to windward with a tiller running free. I have sailed on one. It can't be done unless the rudder is locked. CM "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... | RB confuses balancing a boat so it will hold a course 10 seconds in a protected bay, with | doing it on a full keel boat for hours at a time in the open ocean. | | I sailed an Irwin 30 for a season (not the best boat, but it was free) and it would track | for limited periods with the wheel locked. Sometimes a few minutes, other times 10 | seconds. Even my Nonsuch could do it sometimes. | | | "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message | ... | I call Bull****... it can't be done on any fin keeler! | | | CM | | "CANDChelp" wrote in message | ... | | On my first keel boat, a full keel design, the boat could be trimmed to | sail | | without | | lashing the tiller at all, if it was on a beam to close reach. | | | | Yup. I was taught how to do that in the J30, which could be a finicky | boat. | | Donal needs to learn this. | | | | RB | | | | |
Hey Donal
UP WIND?????
CM "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... | I've sailed for about 10 minutes hands off on a C&C 36 and | a C&C 34. Eventually, the course started changing back and | forth enough to warrant taking back the helm from the sea. | | "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message | ... | Yes... I've never seen a fin keeler that would allow the helm to be left | unlashed or unstopped and make way upwind with the helm free. It won't | happen... not in a month of Sundays. I could care less what trim you | claimed | to have.... it will round up or fall off..... but it will not make ground | to | the waypoint. | | CM | | "CANDChelp" wrote in message | ... | | I call Bull****... it can't be done on any fin keeler! | | | | I hope you're not serious. | | | | RB | | | | |
Hey Donal
Yes, I'd have to agree. But, RB sails in a protected sound where flat seas and steady
thermals are common. Its possible in those conditions for a well trimmed boat to hold course for brief periods. RB would extrapolate a 10 second experience in ideal conditions to a general claim. "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ... Jeff it is of paramount importance here to stress that Bob's claim specifically states a rudder that is allowed to swing free, unlashed and not helmed with no auto pilot engaged. There is no way an Irwin 30 could make way to windward with a tiller running free. I have sailed on one. It can't be done unless the rudder is locked. CM "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... | RB confuses balancing a boat so it will hold a course 10 seconds in a protected bay, with | doing it on a full keel boat for hours at a time in the open ocean. | | I sailed an Irwin 30 for a season (not the best boat, but it was free) and it would track | for limited periods with the wheel locked. Sometimes a few minutes, other times 10 | seconds. Even my Nonsuch could do it sometimes. | | | "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message | ... | I call Bull****... it can't be done on any fin keeler! | | | CM | | "CANDChelp" wrote in message | ... | | On my first keel boat, a full keel design, the boat could be trimmed to | sail | | without | | lashing the tiller at all, if it was on a beam to close reach. | | | | Yup. I was taught how to do that in the J30, which could be a finicky | boat. | | Donal needs to learn this. | | | | RB | | | | |
Hey Donal
Not upwind he wouldn't... not unless his rudder is so stiff as to act as a
friction dampener. Not for ten seconds unless you calculate momentum and not for a minute without a locked helm or a bungee cord. Like I said... regardless of seastate or wind strength.... it can't be done. CM "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... | Yes, I'd have to agree. But, RB sails in a protected sound where flat seas and steady | thermals are common. Its possible in those conditions for a well trimmed boat to hold | course for brief periods. RB would extrapolate a 10 second experience in ideal conditions | to a general claim. | | | "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message | ... | Jeff it is of paramount importance here to stress that Bob's claim | specifically states a rudder that is allowed to swing free, unlashed and not | helmed with no auto pilot engaged. There is no way an Irwin 30 could make | way to windward with a tiller running free. I have sailed on one. It can't | be done unless the rudder is locked. | | CM | | "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message | ... | | RB confuses balancing a boat so it will hold a course 10 seconds in a | protected bay, with | | doing it on a full keel boat for hours at a time in the open ocean. | | | | I sailed an Irwin 30 for a season (not the best boat, but it was free) and | it would track | | for limited periods with the wheel locked. Sometimes a few minutes, other | times 10 | | seconds. Even my Nonsuch could do it sometimes. | | | | | | "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message | | ... | | I call Bull****... it can't be done on any fin keeler! | | | | | | CM | | | | "CANDChelp" wrote in message | | ... | | | On my first keel boat, a full keel design, the boat could be trimmed | to | | sail | | | without | | | lashing the tiller at all, if it was on a beam to close reach. | | | | | | Yup. I was taught how to do that in the J30, which could be a finicky | | boat. | | | Donal needs to learn this. | | | | | | RB | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Hey Donal
Not upwind he wouldn't... not unless his rudder is so stiff as to act as a
friction dampener. Let's let the video be the judge. No point in aguing further until then. RB |
Hey Donal
if by ''rapid development '', you mean maturing and leaving the group, then
yes, you have my say so. Scotty "SkitchNYC" wrote ... I think I speak for the group when I say we would all like to see a little more rapid development from you. |
Hey Donal
Ask him to see a copy of his marriage license. Watch the excuses fly.
SV "SkitchNYC" wrote in message ... with little art and no finish. There are pics of my boat. Pics of the work I did on her. Pics of the crew and my wife. There are NO pics of your boat. None. You may be Christopher Reeves for all we Unfortunately, no pics of your wife's boat actually sailing. I guess it is to be expected from someone in the media biz that a "pic" is proof enough of anything, but most of us are able to convey the truth without relying on such tangibles. |
Hey Donal
Yup, I knew that.
SV "Donal" wrote They are a very nice cruising boat, which has very comfortable accomodation for a 31 footer. The 311 is an Oceanis, which is quite different to my boat. The last time that I helmed an Oceanis, I thought that there was a serious problem with the wheel steering. It turned out that I just wasn't used to the small rudder. Regards Donal -- |
Hey Donal
"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ... Not upwind he wouldn't... not unless his rudder is so stiff as to act as a friction dampener. Not for ten seconds unless you calculate momentum and not for a minute without a locked helm or a bungee cord. Like I said... regardless of seastate or wind strength.... it can't be done. I'm not so sure! If I get a chance I'll try it this weekend. When you say that it can't be done by sail trim alone, are you assuming that the sails are going to be set, and left in position? When I say that I can steer the boat with the sails I mean that the main is being constantly adjusted, and the jenny less so. In most wind/sea states I wouldn't be able to hold a steady course, but I would be able to steer to my destination. That was the purpose of my trials last year .... to see if I needed an emergency rudder. The result was that I don't. Regards Donal -- |
Hey Donal
"Scott Vernon" wrote in message ... Yup, I knew that. SV "Donal" wrote They are a very nice cruising boat, which has very comfortable accomodation for a 31 footer. The 311 is an Oceanis, which is quite different to my boat. The last time that I helmed an Oceanis, I thought that there was a serious problem with the wheel steering. It turned out that I just wasn't used to the small rudder. Welcome back, and thanks for giving me the chance to give Bobby the soundest thrashing that he has had for a few weeks. It's not over yet. Regards Donal -- |
Hey Donal
I could do it with the Mac.
"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ... Yes well the unlashed and free swinging part is the point I have trouble with. As I've stated to Bob.... I have never seen it done... I have not been able to do it myself and I doubt it can be done unless the fin keeled vessel is specially designed or modified to allow it. I certainly can't picture a C&C 32 managing to do it... and I've offered a challenge to Bob to provide video footage... which he has kindly agreed to do. CM "Oz1" wrote in message ... | On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:06:45 -0300, "Capt. Mooron" | wrote: | | Yeah... sure Oz.... a fin keeler that makes way upwind on sail set alone | with the tiller free to swing..... sounds like a bare poles sailing story | to me. | | CM | | Missed the unlashed! | Still for a few minutes at a time it is possible on a well | tuned/trimmed boat with no lashing. | | | Oz1...of the 3 twins. | I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
Hey Donal
You're welcome. Enjoy your trophy.
Scotty "Donal" wrote in message ... "Scott Vernon" wrote in message ... Yup, I knew that. SV "Donal" wrote They are a very nice cruising boat, which has very comfortable accomodation for a 31 footer. The 311 is an Oceanis, which is quite different to my boat. The last time that I helmed an Oceanis, I thought that there was a serious problem with the wheel steering. It turned out that I just wasn't used to the small rudder. Welcome back, and thanks for giving me the chance to give Bobby the soundest thrashing that he has had for a few weeks. It's not over yet. Regards Donal -- |
Hey Donal
"Oz1" wrote in message ... On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:20:06 +0100, "Donal" wrote: . That was the purpose of my trials last year .... to see if I needed an emergency rudder. The result was that I don't. You do! Steering by sails is fine in fair conditions but other times you will need it. Actually, I think that you are right. The wind on the day that we tried it was only about 10kts max. However, I did learn a lot by trying it. Regards Donal -- |
Hey Donal
Yup. Close Hauled. Several times actually. More times on
the C&C 34, single reefed 100% jib. Both sails very tired. "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ... UP WIND????? CM "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... | I've sailed for about 10 minutes hands off on a C&C 36 and | a C&C 34. Eventually, the course started changing back and | forth enough to warrant taking back the helm from the sea. | | "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message | ... | Yes... I've never seen a fin keeler that would allow the helm to be left | unlashed or unstopped and make way upwind with the helm free. It won't | happen... not in a month of Sundays. I could care less what trim you | claimed | to have.... it will round up or fall off..... but it will not make ground | to | the waypoint. | | CM | | "CANDChelp" wrote in message | ... | | I call Bull****... it can't be done on any fin keeler! | | | | I hope you're not serious. | | | | RB | | | | |
Hey Donal
FYI, these were wheeled boats, not tillers.
"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ... UP WIND????? CM "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... | I've sailed for about 10 minutes hands off on a C&C 36 and | a C&C 34. Eventually, the course started changing back and | forth enough to warrant taking back the helm from the sea. | | "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message | ... | Yes... I've never seen a fin keeler that would allow the helm to be left | unlashed or unstopped and make way upwind with the helm free. It won't | happen... not in a month of Sundays. I could care less what trim you | claimed | to have.... it will round up or fall off..... but it will not make ground | to | the waypoint. | | CM | | "CANDChelp" wrote in message | ... | | I call Bull****... it can't be done on any fin keeler! | | | | I hope you're not serious. | | | | RB | | | | |
Hey Donal
I'l try it again as well... I might get it to work on a reach if I
continuously adjust and trim the sails.... I'm not holding my breath. Has anyone else managed to sail upwing with a rudder swinging free for more than what would constitute normal momentum over a short period.??? CM "Donal" wrote in message ... | | "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message | ... | Not upwind he wouldn't... not unless his rudder is so stiff as to act as a | friction dampener. Not for ten seconds unless you calculate momentum and | not | for a minute without a locked helm or a bungee cord. | | Like I said... regardless of seastate or wind strength.... it can't be | done. | | | I'm not so sure! If I get a chance I'll try it this weekend. | | When you say that it can't be done by sail trim alone, are you assuming | that the sails are going to be set, and left in position? When I say that | I can steer the boat with the sails I mean that the main is being constantly | adjusted, and the jenny less so. | | | In most wind/sea states I wouldn't be able to hold a steady course, but I | would be able to steer to my destination. That was the purpose of my trials | last year .... to see if I needed an emergency rudder. The result was that | I don't. | | | | Regards | | | Donal | -- | | | |
Hey Donal
Yes but it requires a flat sea.
Cheers MC Capt. Mooron wrote: I'l try it again as well... I might get it to work on a reach if I continuously adjust and trim the sails.... I'm not holding my breath. Has anyone else managed to sail upwing with a rudder swinging free for more than what would constitute normal momentum over a short period.??? CM "Donal" wrote in message ... | | "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message | ... | Not upwind he wouldn't... not unless his rudder is so stiff as to act as a | friction dampener. Not for ten seconds unless you calculate momentum and | not | for a minute without a locked helm or a bungee cord. | | Like I said... regardless of seastate or wind strength.... it can't be | done. | | | I'm not so sure! If I get a chance I'll try it this weekend. | | When you say that it can't be done by sail trim alone, are you assuming | that the sails are going to be set, and left in position? When I say that | I can steer the boat with the sails I mean that the main is being constantly | adjusted, and the jenny less so. | | | In most wind/sea states I wouldn't be able to hold a steady course, but I | would be able to steer to my destination. That was the purpose of my trials | last year .... to see if I needed an emergency rudder. The result was that | I don't. | | | | Regards | | | Donal | -- | | | |
Hey Donal
"Scott Vernon" wrote in message | I could do it with the Mac. So you are stating you sail like Bob??????? CM |
Hey Donal
Damn Mooron, I drew my .45 when I read that! You're lucky you're 'up
there'. Scotty, nothing , absolutely nothing like booby. "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ... "Scott Vernon" wrote in message | I could do it with the Mac. So you are stating you sail like Bob??????? CM |
Hey Donal
Capt. Mooron wrote:
I'l try it again as well... I might get it to work on a reach if I continuously adjust and trim the sails.... I'm not holding my breath. Has anyone else managed to sail upwing with a rudder swinging free for more than what would constitute normal momentum over a short period.??? The navigator© wrote: Yes but it requires a flat sea. Not really, but if there is a sea running then it requires both skill & patience. Can you say "dynamic equilibrium"? C'mon, say it with me now. It's really just a fancy word for saying that the boat will swing one way, then the other, but will be able to be steered on a course averaging between the swings. The trickiest part is to keep the boat close to the wind without getting thrown through stays by some combination of gust & wave; or if the circumstances are such that this is going to happen anyway, to coax the boat back onto the desired course. I'm having a hard time imagining circumstances where one could not at least immobilize the rudder, much less rig some type of emergency steering. In one Bermuda Race a few years ago, one boat that lost it's rudder used a bunk lashed to the spinnaker pole as an emergency rudder & tiller. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Hey Donal
DSK wrote: Capt. Mooron wrote: I'l try it again as well... I might get it to work on a reach if I continuously adjust and trim the sails.... I'm not holding my breath. Has anyone else managed to sail upwing with a rudder swinging free for more than what would constitute normal momentum over a short period.??? The navigator© wrote: Yes but it requires a flat sea. Not really, but if there is a sea running then it requires both skill & patience. Can you say "dynamic equilibrium"? C'mon, say it with me now. It's really just a fancy word for saying that the boat will swing one way, then the other, but will be able to be steered on a course averaging between the swings. The trickiest part is to keep the boat close to the wind without getting thrown through stays by some combination of gust & wave; or if the circumstances are such that this is going to happen anyway, to coax the boat back onto the desired course. I'm having a hard time imagining circumstances where one could not at least immobilize the rudder, much less rig some type of emergency steering. In one Bermuda Race a few years ago, one boat that lost it's rudder used a bunk lashed to the spinnaker pole as an emergency rudder & tiller. Fresh Breezes- Doug King Doug, I tried and tried, because the catyawl is supposed to be ideal for this, but the longest I've ever been able to beat with the rudder free and stay on course is a minute or so, then some combination of wave and wind will knock the boat a small but critical amount, the free rudder will swing a bit, and suddenly we're doing donuts. (I don't mind doing donuts while I'm at the tiller, even if I did bust the mainsheet track buffers doing it once.) So I lash tillers whatever. I suspect tht if I totally lost my rudder, it would be a lot easier to sail with sails alone than with a rudder still there but swinging free... -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
and suddenly
we're doing donuts. Wow, just like Gay Ganzy! RB |
Hey Donal
Bobsprit sweetie, do you know what I'm actually talking about? I
don't know what you might call the manoeuvre under sail over there. CANDChelp wrote: and suddenly we're doing donuts. Wow, just like Gay Ganzy! RB -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Hey Donal
Bobsprit sweetie, do you know what I'm actually talking about? I
don't know what you might call the manoeuvre under sail over there. It's called, "why would you let go of the tiller, dopey?" RB |
Donuts for Bobsprit--am I trolling?
CANDChelp wrote: Bobsprit sweetie, do you know what I'm actually talking about? I don't know what you might call the manoeuvre under sail over there. It's called, "why would you let go of the tiller, dopey?" RB Pick a good sailing breeze (say, 15-18knots). Helm hard over. Tack. Keep the helm hard over. Jibe. Keep the helm hard over. Tack. (Keep the helm hard over. Jibe. With appropriate sail handling and a fin keeler, if you've done it rightyou should by now be spinning the boat through multiple 360sin close to her own length, not moving anywhere in terms of VMG. It is a test of the boats manoeuvrability and the crew's ability to handle sails. Repeat until someone throws up from vertigo or the watching crowd at the whatever Boat Festival applauds at the skill. finesse and co-ordination it demonstrates. I do it singlehanded. Now, is this a troll, Bobsprit? Or am I describing reality? Let's see how fast you respond. -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
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