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Designing my own boat



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 10th 05, 01:18 PM
William R. Watt
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"Thomas Veber" ) writes:
Hi William,

I have been wondering... Wouldn't it, from a forces point of view, be a good
idea to put the mast on one of the bulkheads?

/Thomas


I've located the unstayed mast in a raised tabernacle at the front of the
cabin wall (this cabin looks much like raised the cabin on a New England
catboat) intending it and the cabin to be supported on the same framing,
with the sideways stress being carried by the cabin wall and framing to
the gunwales and chines. It's not entirely an untested idea. You might
want to look at the way the mast is stepped in the removable partners on
the Dogskiff boat on my website. That arrangement has worked fine. If the
arrangement on the Solo15 caused any problems a hole could be cut in the
deck and the mast stepped on the cabin sole in the more traditional
manner. It's always good to have a backup plan.

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  #22  
Old March 10th 05, 02:07 PM
William R. Watt
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People should keep in minmd that sailboats don't sail flat, they sail
heeled over (mostly about 15 degrees), hence flat bottom sailboats sail on
their chines and are therefore really V-bottom boats. In addition Phil
Bolger recommends flat bottom boats have their bow fore-and-aft deadrise
angle equal to their bow half angle, which I finally realized gives them a
pretty symetrical entrance and also somewhat less weather helm than boats
with less deadrise.

When I raced club dingys we sat out and sailed them flat because they were
designed to be sailed flat and could, on occasion, be made to plane. When
the wind picks up a flat bottom boat might also plane (especially the lake
scows which are desinged to do so) but in normal winds I believe they
should be sailed heeled over. That's why I sail my small flat bottom boats
more comfortably, sitting in the center on the bottom on a cushion facing
forward. None of this scrambling from side to side with each tack and
sitting out over the gunwale in every gust.

I also paddle small home made flat bottom boats in which I am more
sensitive to resistance and can feel the difference when I heel the boats
over solo canoe style. They move in a straighter line with less effort
when heeled and moving along on the chine, again, V-bottom when heeled.

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  #23  
Old March 10th 05, 10:24 PM
Rodney Myrvaagnes
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On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:17:52 +0800, OldNick
wrote:

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:33:14 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Whereas if you _deisgn_ your own boat, you should burn it at the
_start of the sailing season, having spent your time out of season, on
your own, trying it out....
You do have to start somewhere. Maybe you can take inspiration from
supercomputer pioneer Seymore Cray. For many hears he built a new boat
every winter, and burned it at the end of the Minnesota sailing
season.


I should have said "designed and built." Since it was for his own
amusement, he could do what he liked. I felt at the time that he
should overlap them enough to gauge any improvement.

Since I don't know what would have constituted an improvement on his
terms, my feelings are meaningless in this context.

What bothers me about many threads on this NG is prospective builders
who have no idea (from using boats) what characteristics they would
like a boat to have. Nobody else can tell them that.

They have to go sailing (or whatever they do with a boat) on enough
different boats to begin to understand the problem they are trying to
solve. If building a boat is the only point, they could just avoid
disappointment by burning it before launch, as you suggested.



Rodney Myrvaagnes Opinionated old geezer

Brutal dictators are routinely reelected by 90+%
margins. Only in a truly advanced democracy can
one win an election by a negative 600,000 votes.
  #24  
Old March 11th 05, 02:37 AM
Brian D
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I think you'll like using thin plywood for building a model better than
other materials. I've tried things like paper, plastic, thin cardboard
....nope, ply is better. I use model aircraft plywood from the local hobby
shop. It bends realistically and you can cut it with scissors.

Brian D



"Thomas Veber" wrote in message
...
Hi William,

Thank you for your nice and long reply. I have been looking at your web
page, and found a lot of usefuld information. I will see if I can find the
"Blue Peter" program also. I think it is a good idea to build models in
plywood. I was thinking of building them in paper, but ofcourse thin
plywood will give a better "feel" of the real thing.

I will study your web page more, and probably return with more
questions... It is specially the weight- and strength distribution that
concerns me.

Fortunately we do not have the same regulations in Sweden to toilets as
you have in Canada. But IF there is a toilet, it must have a tank to hold
the waste.

Best regards,
Thomas


"William R. Watt" skrev i meddelandet
...

You're welcome to look at the design process for Solo15 on my website
under "Boats" (address below). It describes how I used two free hull
design programs (Carlson and Blue Peter) and compared the numbers to
lists
of boats in books. The Solo15 was an exercise to demonstrate on the
Internet how amateurs like myself might go about designing a small boat.
The design is incomplete and will not likely be built. I'd advise reading
a lot of books on boat design from the public library. Chosing the shape
is just part of it, there's chosing the right strength and weight of
materials, getting the weight distribution and sail balance right, etc.

For a combination of inspiration and practical information for small
boats I
like the two books by designer/builder TF Jones.

You might be interested in looking at amateurn boat desing competitions.
There's one a year at www.duckworksmagazine.com. I think only the most
recent one is avaiable for viewing without paying a membership fee to
login.

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  #25  
Old March 11th 05, 02:52 AM
Brian D
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Not quite true on the resale value. I've seen several Tolmans sell for $25k
to $30k. They have a strong reputation.

Brian D


"Sal's Dad" wrote in message
...
You will see a lot of argument here over the relative merits of careful
experienced designers (Bolger comes to mind ;-) And some boats, in some
applications, can be home designed - it would be hard to build a worse
jonboat than those commercially available! But in general, a tried-and
true design, or designer is a good idea.

But there are plenty of good, serviceable, easy-to-build designs out there
that will probably meet your needs. If, after a rigorous search, you
can't find the perfect boat for you, consider making minor modifications
to an existing design.

As to Jim's warnings: Even the best home-built boat has a resale value
approaching zero. Just please, when you launch a home-designed boat, take
it out a lot, alone. Preferably before you reproduce.

Sal's Dad



"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
I have a friend who is a professional classical musician. I know how i'd
react if he said to me "Mozart, Schmozart! Though I have no training in
it
and have never done it before, I'm going to compose my own violin
concerto,
rent a hall and perform it. I expect that i'll get my usual crowd at the
usual prices.". I'd tell him to have a nice time and that i'll come if
he
gives me a ticket.

Same with boats. If you're willing to stand the risk that the boat won't
be
any good and will have zero value (or worse, drown someone), have a nice
trip.



"Thomas Veber" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

After building a simple plywood dinghy to test my capabilities, I now
feel
confident to go on and realise an old dream: To build my own sail boat.

It's
going to be trailer-able and around 15-16 feet. With centerboard and a
little cabin with sleeping capabilities for two and a half.

I have searched the net, read a lot, and found many nice designs in this
category. But then I realised... Why not take it one step further and
make
the design my self?

I have Googled some more, and found Carlson Designs "Hulls" program and
started playing with it. Fantastic that you can get such a program for

free!

But I know, that designing a Hull is one thing. Designing a seaworthy
and
yet beautiful hull is another. And then designing centerboard, rudder,

rigg,
cabin, deck and so on is another thing. How do I know that the sails
will
not tear it all apart in the first breeze? How do I ensure that the

sailing
capabilities will be Ok?

For this I am now asking here for any good advice, books, web pages etc.
which can help me. I have no particular time-frame, and I will rather do
this good, than ending up with a useless boat after spending thousinds
of
hours in the shed building it.

Best regards,
Thomas








  #26  
Old March 11th 05, 08:31 AM
[email protected]
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Hi

"Hi Per! Good to have you back - Last time we chatted, I made a
couple
suggestions; others have had similar comments:

First, if you will be posting in English, PLEASE find a good
English-language spell-check. (Your credibility will double
immediately ;-) "

True but isn't it just how it allway's been there are a real need for a
new way to perform a small boat, a cabin an aeroplane whatever and
acturly the vorse trouble is ,that the old crafts ask that much in
terms of craftmanship, that only very few can profit. As you know my
attitude are different here are a method where there are no trouble
finding the software as all you need to do is to model with Solids and
when that is done I point to a fancy new way to produce what realy
count if the hull get over 7 meter --- a way to produce the exact
framework in one go and ontop make it so, that the only material you
need is sheet material.
Bending and fiddeling allway's been a part of boatsbuilding but
avoiding the vorse fiddeling the fiddeling that you turn to becaurse
you don't know better way's than fighting the materials , that shuld be
replaced by methods that solve the vorse problems forming and
projecting the assembly for whatever to.
I know it is a very different world, but what do you expect new things
,new methods, new perception allway's must be different , --- if this
new thing was just what we already know then is it realy new ? No new
things are new and so they are different but the idear in itself shuld
prove ; isn't a method that replace 20 different profiles, stringers
knees bolts nuts and special fittings with just one plain material
promising enough.

P.C.

  #27  
Old March 11th 05, 08:42 AM
[email protected]
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Default

B.rian D write

"I think you'll like using thin plywood for building a model better
than
other materials. "

Exactly aero ply is another name for it ,it come 0,4 mm. and 0,8 mm as
thin almost as paper but increadible strong it is usealy 3 layers but
need to be prepared with thin epoxy if you plan to sail it as the glue
can be water solvent anyway steaming it can make it delaminate so make
tests before you start experiment with this great stuff.

P.C.

  #28  
Old March 11th 05, 01:56 PM
Sal's Dad
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Per,

Maybe I missed it, but did you address, acknowledge (or even read!) anything
that I wrote?

Sal's Dad


wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi

"Hi Per! Good to have you back - Last time we chatted, I made a
couple
suggestions; others have had similar comments:

First, if you will be posting in English, PLEASE find a good
English-language spell-check. (Your credibility will double
immediately ;-) "

True but isn't it just how it allway's been there are a real need for a
new way to perform a small boat, a cabin an aeroplane whatever and
acturly the vorse trouble is ,that the old crafts ask that much in
terms of craftmanship, that only very few can profit. As you know my
attitude are different here are a method where there are no trouble
finding the software as all you need to do is to model with Solids and
when that is done I point to a fancy new way to produce what realy
count if the hull get over 7 meter --- a way to produce the exact
framework in one go and ontop make it so, that the only material you
need is sheet material.
Bending and fiddeling allway's been a part of boatsbuilding but
avoiding the vorse fiddeling the fiddeling that you turn to becaurse
you don't know better way's than fighting the materials , that shuld be
replaced by methods that solve the vorse problems forming and
projecting the assembly for whatever to.
I know it is a very different world, but what do you expect new things
,new methods, new perception allway's must be different , --- if this
new thing was just what we already know then is it realy new ? No new
things are new and so they are different but the idear in itself shuld
prove ; isn't a method that replace 20 different profiles, stringers
knees bolts nuts and special fittings with just one plain material
promising enough.

P.C.



  #29  
Old March 11th 05, 06:25 PM
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi

"Maybe I missed it, but did you address, acknowledge (or even read!)
anything
that I wrote? "

No my only concern is that anyone with a bit drive ,can make a nice
boat in the best technike , you know sheet material are the only
materal with 3D-H no bending or fiddeling needed ,I find the most
important issue that if anyone want to profit from making it yourself
be my guest. .
When I ansver I ofcaurse drive my Pony, but this is not bad you se,
digital and crafts work perfect together and I gladly share my thoughts
offer better new options, except fact is that you get bad mood, when
realising how low the CAD standard is that still most is 2D and the
Romans don't even know what 3D is. You know my Pony it's about
offering you and any other skilled want to do it mysef'r , who can
handle somthing as simple as a carpenter tool , this option ,want a
cheap strong easy boat ,well pay four times as much if you find this
clever othervise, get to know just one new tool, that acturly make the
computer just work.

P.C.

  #30  
Old March 16th 05, 12:56 AM
Mark Dunlop
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Default

In article , Thomas Veber
writes
Hi all,

After building a simple plywood dinghy to test my capabilities, I now feel
confident to go on and realise an old dream: To build my own sail boat. It's
going to be trailer-able and around 15-16 feet. With centerboard and a
little cabin with sleeping capabilities for two and a half.

Sounds rather like a Wayfarer dinghy, minus the little cabin.

I have searched the net, read a lot, and found many nice designs in this
category. But then I realised... Why not take it one step further and make
the design my self?

The only reason to design a boat yourself, is if you believe you can
produce a boat which is better, in specific ways, than existing designs.
What specific improvements do you feel your design would incorporate?
Would you be better off taking your design ideas to an established yacht
designer for them to incorporate in a professional design? Eg, if you
have an ingenious idea for a demountable lightweight folding cabin,
which offers advantages over existing cockpit tent arrangements, that
could possibly be a goer.

If you really want to design and build your own sailboat, then first
design and build a model racing yacht or three, or maybe an
International Moth, and race it. That will give you the most practical
insight into sailboat design for the least cost, plus contact with a
supportive community of similarly minded eccentrics.

I have Googled some more, and found Carlson Designs "Hulls" program and
started playing with it. Fantastic that you can get such a program for free!

But I know, that designing a Hull is one thing. Designing a seaworthy and
yet beautiful hull is another. And then designing centerboard, rudder, rigg,
cabin, deck and so on is another thing. How do I know that the sails will
not tear it all apart in the first breeze?


You could buy an old Wayfarer or Leisure 17 or whatever, use the rig and
rudder on a similar size and displacement hull of your own design.

How do I ensure that the sailing
capabilities will be Ok?


By sailing it, that is the only way (unless maybe you have your own
testing tank and computer modelling facilities, or you are already an
experienced designer)

For this I am now asking here for any good advice, books, web pages etc.
which can help me. I have no particular time-frame, and I will rather do
this good, than ending up with a useless boat after spending thousinds of
hours in the shed building it.


More than 500 hrs for a 15-16 foot boat is a bit excessive. 50 hours,
once you get good at it. 20 hrs for a model yacht.

--
Mark Dunlop
 




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