Ewan Scott wrote:
You only need airbags when you get swamped/ go for a swim. Until then all
they doo is take up space.

True. That's all they do when you swim, too, of course.

Steve

Thanks for the input.
Yes I realise that the bags are only any use when you go swimming, but
surely having a sensible distribution of bouyancy is helpful for
recovery. If you put 2 bags front and back on the same side (the RPM
has split front and back), the boat would float go on it's side when
full of water, which would be a pain to recover... same goes for
all-at-the-front or all-at-the-back options (although inherent buoyancy
should prevent the nose or stern (whichever doesn't have the bags)
sinking altogether) ? if it wasn't December, I'd go out and try it !
Given the cost of air bags, I'm going to investigate recycling plastic
milk bottles for the back. A combination of 2, 4 and 6 pint sizes
should fill the space quite nicely at the back... might rattle though.
The front will be more tricky, cause it needs to go past the foot rests
flat.
MB

"MB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for the input.
Yes I realise that the bags are only any use when you go swimming, but
surely having a sensible distribution of bouyancy is helpful for
recovery. If you put 2 bags front and back on the same side (the RPM
has split front and back), the boat would float go on it's side when
full of water, which would be a pain to recover... same goes for
all-at-the-front or all-at-the-back options (although inherent buoyancy
should prevent the nose or stern (whichever doesn't have the bags)
sinking altogether) ? if it wasn't December, I'd go out and try it !
Given the cost of air bags, I'm going to investigate recycling plastic
milk bottles for the back. A combination of 2, 4 and 6 pint sizes
should fill the space quite nicely at the back... might rattle though.
The front will be more tricky, cause it needs to go past the foot rests
flat.



Milk bottles might be cheaper but they are less flexible.

Don't know what sort of kayak you have, or where you paddle, but let's say
you have £500 worth of kit in your boat. You are paddling down a river, you
are somewhere where egress from the river is difficult, you go for a swim,
your boat swamps, your milk bottles dislodge (even if tied in) and you then
have a great struggle to recover self and boat. Or, fit £50 quid worth of
heavy duty airbags and at least your boat will be a/ more visible when
swamped, b/ easier to empty/ rescue, and your kit will still usually be
secure in your boat.

BTW, I'd also add that it false economy to buy cheap poly airbags. Better to
spend a little and get heavy duty ones that are tear resistant.

OTOH, milk bottles may be an excellent solution :-)

Ewan Scott

point taken.
It costs nothing to try, and it will be pretty obvious whether it is
secure or not. If they can be secured, they will certainly provide a
robust/heavy duty solution.

"MB" wrote in message
ups.com...
point taken.
It costs nothing to try, and it will be pretty obvious whether it is
secure or not. If they can be secured, they will certainly provide a
robust/heavy duty solution.


I don't mean to sound dismissive. I'm involved with Scouts and as long as
I've been involved I've come across adults who think that we can get away
with second-hand wolly jumpers, welly boots, tin cans and string and my
experience says that kids won't go with shoddy ideas any more. So when we
kitted out we went for the best we could get money for. That included poly
airbags all round. However, we are gradually changing to heavy duty bags as
the poly ones get punctured.

I've got nothing against folks who try "Heath Robinson" solutions, just that
I'm not keen on them myself.

Ewan Scott

"kids won't go with shoddy ideas any more"

True, and a bit sad also. You need stuff which is fit for purpose
(which milk cartons may not be...different debate !!!), but I think
it's sad that the only worthy option is "buy it fom the shop". Making
your own solutions can be good fun, and just as effective (and testing
the effectivness is important... but that's the same for bought goods,
as highlighted by so many regarding the thin poly airbags).
I'm also involved in scouting, and always impressed at how skilled some
of these kids can get, and yet how little creativity many of them have.
There _was_ life before GPS, Gore-Tex and cell phones, and it was just
as (if not more) fun.
My opinion anyway !
MB

MB wrote:

True, and a bit sad also. You need stuff which is fit for purpose
(which milk cartons may not be...different debate !!!), but I think
it's sad that the only worthy option is "buy it fom the shop". Making
your own solutions can be good fun, and just as effective (and testing
the effectivness is important... but that's the same for bought goods,
as highlighted by so many regarding the thin poly airbags).

A pal of mine who has /lots/ of Stars (up to 5 depending on
discipline, and several disciplines) for both coaching and
attainment, has been known to use Lilos from Lidls as effective
canoe aitbags. And tested them thoroughly, before full on action
and subsequently in anger.

It's usually not that difficult to come up with quite acceptable
home made options for all sorts of things. Including the boats
themselves. Where home production generally fails to compete is
turning out lots of identical things to a predicted standard, but
that'snot generally necessary if it's just for your own use.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"cramersec" wrote in message
oups.com...

Ewan Scott wrote:
You only need airbags when you get swamped/ go for a swim. Until then
all
they doo is take up space.

True. That's all they do when you swim, too, of course.


I've heard folks claim that having airbags helps them in white water by
giving added bouyancy. I don't try to explain that they don't make any
difference because it is too counter such myths. Physics should really be
manadatory at school :-)

Ewan Scott

I've heard folks claim that having airbags helps them in white water by
giving added bouyancy. I don't try to explain that they don't make any
difference because it is too counter such myths. Physics should really be
manadatory at school :-)

Ewan Scott

I'll second the physics at school motion, if this was true I'd be paddling
quite funny, what with my single sided air bag and splits in the other. I
paid £13 for my motion research airbag and it's fine, taken a beating this
season since sept (...ahem) and still isn't punctured.

As for Milk cartons, they work till the boat fills with water, then they
give up on life and either pop the lids off or go wondering down stream. The
air bags on the same side sounds as if it might work, if it fills with a
large quantity of water it's easier to pull it up from the side to let some
water out, then lift it on it's end (the one with the airbags in so they
displace the water) and drag it onto your deck to empty. If it's just
displace water while it's being towed to the side then I'd place two at the
rear as this is the most common place to put them (unless it's a creeker
then I'd also have some infront of the foot plate. Maybe this will help with
re-surfacing...... *cough*)

Mike

In message
"RuFf!!" wrote:

I've heard folks claim that having airbags helps them in white water by
giving added bouyancy. I don't try to explain that they don't make any
difference because it is too counter such myths. Physics should really be
manadatory at school :-)

Ewan Scott

I'll second the physics at school motion, if this was true I'd be paddling
quite funny, what with my single sided air bag and splits in the other. I
paid £13 for my motion research airbag and it's fine, taken a beating this
season since sept (...ahem) and still isn't punctured.

As for Milk cartons, they work till the boat fills with water, then they
give up on life and either pop the lids off or go wondering down stream. The
air bags on the same side sounds as if it might work, if it fills with a
large quantity of water it's easier to pull it up from the side to let some
water out, then lift it on it's end (the one with the airbags in so they
displace the water) and drag it onto your deck to empty. If it's just
displace water while it's being towed to the side then I'd place two at the
rear as this is the most common place to put them (unless it's a creeker
then I'd also have some infront of the foot plate. Maybe this will help with
re-surfacing...... *cough*)


And this might be a suitable point to repeat advice I've seen elsewhere -
when rescuing a boat, i.e. deep water rescue, lift the heavier end first. By
heavier in this context I mean the end which floats lowest. It's harder to
do initially, but as it usually results from one end of the boat having
airbags, then the water will run from the end being lifted, and cannot run
into the other end. Thus the second part of the lift, onto your boat,
becomes much easier.

If you lift the airbagged end first, you then end up with the far end of the
boat full of water, and it's very hard to get it past the balance point.

Of course, drybags with kit in work as airbags too, just not so well.

I find a good system is to put the airbags in the back, uninflated. The
drybags go on top, then the airbags are inflated. This locks the drybags in,
and holds them out of any water in the boat, so they are less likely to
leak. It doesn't keep them dry when you're swimming of course, but that
shouldn't last as long.

Alan


--
Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire

http://www.nckc.org.uk/