In message , Alan
Adams writes

It got too unwieldy when two individuals used it to endlessly post
derogatory messages, mainly about the BCU, and swamped all else. The users'
forum is controlled, so that doesn't happen.


In fairness - I agree completely - but the problems started somewhat
earlier with a certain gentleman from the US or Canada with his
particular brand of incessant advertising! I'm not even going to say
the "s***son" word...

It didn't bother me too much as I just set up some appropriate filters, but
others apparently didn't/couldn't get that to work, and departed.

Since I too don't like online forums, and prefer newsgroups, it doesn't get
any input from me, and I rarely can be troubled to go and see whether there
is anything. I can sympathise though.

(The big difference - newsgroups come to you, you have to go to forums.)


Again, I agree - though (and we've had this out many times before) I
reckon it's a bit like pubs - you go for a chat with your mates, and if
instead you always walk into an argument, then you rapidly start going
elsewhere for a beer. It's about tone and culture (not the much avowed
"free speech", please), and free choice. Anyway, and I think I've also
said this before, newsgroups WERE the vehicle of choice for early
Internet adopters, but most web users now have ever even heard of them -
so they appear to be dying a natural (if unfortunate) death in many
"generalist" (ie non-techy) subject areas. I've seen another newsgroup,
similar in history and age to this one, go much the same way even
without the arguments and grief. I think they simply accelerated the
process...
--
David Pearson

I think you will find the forums on UKRGB are only moderated in extreme
cases of personal abuse as the originator and most members generally
regard free speech and opinions important. It only became neccessary to
log in and identify oneself on the forums recently after a hijacking
attempt.
From being a regular user of UKRGB I have never had the impression that
it is commercially led and over several years of use I have never felt
the need to click on a commercial link. If you can't use the forum
without clicking on adverts then you obviously have a problem. They are
unobtrusive to the main use of the pages.

SatNav wrote:
"Kegs" wrote in message
...
"SatNav" writes:

"MatSav" m a t t h e w D O T s a v a g e A T d s l D O T p i p e x D OT
c o
m wrote in message ...
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 23:43:42 +0100, JH
wrote:

Does anything ever happen in this group, or are you all down with Davy
Jones?

Discussion has migrated to url:http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk


The above fake little dialogue is designed to divert gullible usenet
users
to a commercial page.

Bing! Wrong, UKRGB is a free site, with free discussion boards, and
free access to the river guides, which are contributed by the readership.

Ads and selling stuff like t-shirts are about the only ways to pay for
the, non-negligable, overheads of running a popular site like that,
without
directly charging the end-users.


My point precisely, UKRGB depends on advertising revenue to keep going. You
know what happens when your website depends financially on someone?

Even if they don't overtly call the shots, you make sure you don't upset
them. Freedom of speech goes out the window etc. etc.

This by contrast is a free AND independent NG. I regret if people post
here, announcing that 'discussion has migrated' to a commercially funded web
site.

The motivation is obvious - adverts fetch more the more hits your site gets.

"Alan Adams" wrote in message
...
In message
JH wrote:

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:19:45 +0100, "SatNav"
wrote:


"Kegs" wrote in message
...
"SatNav" writes:

"MatSav" m a t t h e w D O T s a v a g e A T d s l D O T p i p e x
D OT
c o
m wrote in message
...
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 23:43:42 +0100, JH
wrote:

Does anything ever happen in this group, or are you all down with
Davy
Jones?

Discussion has migrated to url:http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk


The above fake little dialogue is designed to divert gullible usenet
users
to a commercial page.

Bing! Wrong, UKRGB is a free site, with free discussion boards, and
free access to the river guides, which are contributed by the
readership.

Ads and selling stuff like t-shirts are about the only ways to pay
for
the, non-negligable, overheads of running a popular site like that,
without
directly charging the end-users.


My point precisely, UKRGB depends on advertising revenue to keep going.
You
know what happens when your website depends financially on someone?

Even if they don't overtly call the shots, you make sure you don't
upset
them. Freedom of speech goes out the window etc. etc.

This by contrast is a free AND independent NG. I regret if people post
here, announcing that 'discussion has migrated' to a commercially
funded web
site.

The motivation is obvious - adverts fetch more the more hits your site
gets.



Given the popularity (growing it seems to me) of "paddling", it seems
amazing that a newsgroup can be "killed" off by two individuals with a
point to prove.

Shame really, the moderators rule. (Again..)

J.

No, you misunderstand. The group is unmoderated, which was the cause of
the
problem. When it was hijacked, there was no way to stop it, other than
leaving. The forum is moderated, hence hasn't been hijacked.


How's that? An open newsgroup where anything goes, and is allegedly
hijacked by people offering a viewpoint that perhaps questions the NGB,
perhaps making people far removed from the troublesome topics feel
uncomfortable - I don't know. But having chat on moderated forums where
moderators can remove anything they don't like is okay.... seems like
turkeys voting for Christmas if you ask me.

Personally I think it goes completely against the grain and I'd much rather
put up with different opinions and challenging viewpoints, and even the odd
obnoxious outburst than face unquestioning censorship. But then again, maybe
I have driven some away from another newsgroup...

Ewan Scott

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...
But then again, maybe
I have driven some away from another newsgroup...

Ewan Scott


You? Never!

Keith

"SatNav" wrote in message
...

"Kegs" wrote in message
...
"SatNav" writes:

"MatSav" m a t t h e w D O T s a v a g e A T d s l D O T p i p e x D OT
c o
m wrote in message ...
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 23:43:42 +0100, JH
wrote:

Does anything ever happen in this group, or are you all down with Davy
Jones?

Discussion has migrated to url:http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk


The above fake little dialogue is designed to divert gullible usenet
users
to a commercial page.

Bing! Wrong, UKRGB is a free site, with free discussion boards, and
free access to the river guides, which are contributed by the readership.

Ads and selling stuff like t-shirts are about the only ways to pay for
the, non-negligable, overheads of running a popular site like that,
without
directly charging the end-users.


My point precisely, UKRGB depends on advertising revenue to keep going.
You know what happens when your website depends financially on someone?

Even if they don't overtly call the shots, you make sure you don't upset
them. Freedom of speech goes out the window etc. etc.

This by contrast is a free AND independent NG. I regret if people post
here, announcing that 'discussion has migrated' to a commercially funded
web site.

The motivation is obvious - adverts fetch more the more hits your site
gets.

That'll explain way UKRGB doesnt actually charge for its ads then. Always
worth getting the facts right.

"Keith Meredith" wrote in message
...

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...
But then again, maybe
I have driven some away from another newsgroup...

Ewan Scott


You? Never!

Hey, heat and kitchens come to mind :-)

Ewan Scott

My, my... that sound of axes grinding has an oddly familiar ring to it.
I don't recognise the name "satnav" but the tone certainly sounds like
the poster should end his rant with "not a fan of..." something.

Back in this ng's heyday (showing my age here, that was something like
1998...) I used to be one of the regular posters here. For the reasons
already discussed above, the signal-to-noise ratio got unacceptably low
for many folk, and most of us disappeared to other forums. This
happened at about the same time as website design was improving and
more people were getting faster connections, so that web-based forums
became pretty standard fare across the internet. I still pop in here
from time to time for a touch of nostalgia, careful as always not to
cut myself on the swarf from those aforementioned axes.

The ukrgb forum has essentially replaced this newsgroup as the de facto
discussion forum for touring paddlers in the UK. I've met and paddled
with the originator, and know that he is passionately in favour of a
not-for-profit *resource* for paddlers - the forum complements the
river guides. The site "owner" (in so much as a resource of that
nature can be "owned" by one person) does not charge for the ads placed
on "his" site, although I believe he occasionally receives discounted
paddling gear from several of them. He has for several years funded
all the server costs from his own pocket. The teeshirt "enterprise"
is, by his own admission, due to popular request from many of the
users. If you don't like the idea of putting money in his pocket,
no-one is forcing you to wear a shirt or click on the links.

As for the format, it comes down to personal choice - modern web forums
are undeniably prettier and for most people are easier to use (e.g.
inserting links, pictures is more straightforward). On the other hand,
USENET ngs have a nice solid ASCII feel to them and of course are far
easier on that old 28kbps modem you refuse to throw away.

As for content, the ukrgb forum has over 3000 registered users and
attracts seemingly dozens of new posts per day. I have seen very
little evidence of moderation - and in the rare cases when the
moderator's brush has been swished around, it has usually been welcomed
by other posters. This ng has a handful of regular posters who are
still apparently trotting out the tired old stuff about the BCU / child
abuse / David Train / blah blah blah that they have been for the past
five years.

Best,
philm

wrote:

Back in this ng's heyday (showing my age here, that was something like
1998...) I used to be one of the regular posters here. For the reasons
already discussed above, the signal-to-noise ratio got unacceptably low
for many folk, and most of us disappeared to other forums. This
happened at about the same time as website design was improving and
more people were getting faster connections, so that web-based forums
became pretty standard fare across the internet.

Pity they're still crap interfaces with a fraction of the utility of
Usenet with a decent reader, though.

The ukrgb forum has essentially replaced this newsgroup as the de facto
discussion forum for touring paddlers in the UK.

But I have no interest in labouring against a web based interface
because it takes too much time and effort, so I'd rather have no
discussion than work too hard for some. I'll just 'phone up my pal with
more touring experience than anyone else I know if I want some Important
Questions answered.

I've met and paddled
with the originator, and know that he is passionately in favour of a
not-for-profit *resource* for paddlers - the forum complements the
river guides. The site "owner" (in so much as a resource of that
nature can be "owned" by one person) does not charge for the ads placed
on "his" site, although I believe he occasionally receives discounted
paddling gear from several of them. He has for several years funded
all the server costs from his own pocket.

Well Good For Him, but it doesn't alter the fact that compared to
newsfeeds, web forums suck so much you could box them up with a brush
and crevice tool and market them as vacuum cleaners.

As for the format, it comes down to personal choice - modern web forums
are undeniably prettier and for most people are easier to use (e.g.
inserting links, pictures is more straightforward). On the other hand,
USENET ngs have a nice solid ASCII feel to them and of course are far
easier on that old 28kbps modem you refuse to throw away.

I'm reading through a direct feed to SuperJANET at several orders of
magnitude quicker than that, have been for a long time, and I still find
web forums suck. Inserting links is hard? I just type the link and
it's done.

As for content, the ukrgb forum has over 3000 registered users and
attracts seemingly dozens of new posts per day. I have seen very
little evidence of moderation - and in the rare cases when the
moderator's brush has been swished around, it has usually been welcomed
by other posters. This ng has a handful of regular posters who are
still apparently trotting out the tired old stuff about the BCU / child
abuse / David Train / blah blah blah that they have been for the past
five years.

But at least it doesn't feel like hard work to use the reading
mechanisms, and I don't have to visit several different locations with
different interfaces to follow discussions of my cycling, gaming,
mountaineering and professional interests.

Pete (not a fan of ****e user interfaces, and that's no reflection on
the site owner or the people posting there).
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"JH" wrote in message
...
(big snip)

Hmmm, this explanation of what has happened to the group rings a number of
bells. It seems to have happened on other interest groups on usenet which
I
visit.

Shame if a combination of f***wits and laziness kills off a simple, easy
to
use format (usenet) and puts in its place a cumbersome, commercially
involved, "moderated" one. (Good old Micro$oft, eh)?

But then I guess that is happening with everything.

One person's comment about a large number of .net users not even knowing
about usenet probably hits it on the head. After all, just look at the
number of experts on McDonald's latest menu, who have never cooked
anything
wholesome for themselves.

J. (back to lurking)

Usenet has it's place, even though things have moved on since it's heyday -
the likes of UKRGB has a place as well and you only have to look at the
amount of traffic to apprecaite that there are a great many people who like
and enjoy using it.

Some people still like and enjoy steam engines - most of us drive somethinga
little more modern.

JH wrote:

So where is there a sea paddling group which is UK based and not moderated?

Why not start posting here and see what happens?