On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:55:18 +0100, "Charlie"
wrote:


"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
.. .
Good luck. Piece of advice. Learn to roll as soon as you can. It makes
life a whole lot easier if you can roll when you start taking the boat
all the way over in High Brace and Sculling and HB on the Move.

Ha! It's not like I haven't been trying! I just can't seem to get the
oomph to get the boat all the way over. I can get it about half way up then
it falls back down! Maybe something more suited to me will be easier. Good
job I like swimming really...

I'll lay odds you are being taught to do it on the right hand side of
the boat. Yes?

Find the surface of the water with the paddle, sweep it out and then
draw it down, using a hip flick to finish things off, lying back and
bringing your head up last type of thing? Yes?

Alternate strategy, extend your paddle on the LEFT hand side of the
boat, moving your grip down the shaft as far as you can get - but NOT
going to pelata. Roll upside down, find the surface of the water and
simply yank your right handdown and across your body as hard as you
can. Finishing with a hip flick. If you get it right you will catch
fresh air for about a second and roll over again on the other side. So
prepare with a brace to stop going over again.

Took me months to get the roll and then I tried it on the left and
couldn't believe how simple it was.

Rounder hulls are sometimes easier to roll. Squared hulls tend to roll
in "steps". Just a thought.




http://101waystocookabeaver.blogspot.com

Ewan Scott wrote in message
...
(snipped)


Ha! It's not like I haven't been trying! I just can't seem to get the
oomph to get the boat all the way over. I can get it about half way up
then
it falls back down! Maybe something more suited to me will be easier.
Good
job I like swimming really...

I'll lay odds you are being taught to do it on the right hand side of
the boat. Yes?

Find the surface of the water with the paddle, sweep it out and then
draw it down, using a hip flick to finish things off, lying back and
bringing your head up last type of thing? Yes?

Alternate strategy, extend your paddle on the LEFT hand side of the
boat, moving your grip down the shaft as far as you can get - but NOT
going to pelata. Roll upside down, find the surface of the water and
simply yank your right handdown and across your body as hard as you
can. Finishing with a hip flick. If you get it right you will catch
fresh air for about a second and roll over again on the other side. So
prepare with a brace to stop going over again.

Took me months to get the roll and then I tried it on the left and
couldn't believe how simple it was.

Rounder hulls are sometimes easier to roll. Squared hulls tend to roll
in "steps". Just a thought.

I could never come to terms with the (essential) "hip flick" - if thats an
issue, think about "ramming / lifting / forcing" your knee "thro the deck"
as you progress thro the roll. Following Ewan's advice above, set up with
the paddle on the left, as you start the roll ram your knee hard against the
deck - works for me!

Keep your head down until you're "up".

Personally, I found I learnt to roll with a pawlata and then just keep
shortening the grip until I had a "proper" hand position for a screw/storm
roll. There is a school of thought though that suggests it's best not to
learn this way, as it encourages brute force rather than technique but I
still favour a pawlata as my fail-safe back up when I just *have* to roll.

There is even a suggestion on one of the Australian sea-kayaking sites that
the pawlata should be the roll of choice for sea-paddlers - certainly in
conditions where a failed roll is not an option.

There's some sound advice on rolling to be found in "Kayak Rolling - the
Black Art Demystified " - Collins, L - Pesda Press - ISBN 0-9531956-8-6 -
www.pesdapress.com

Mike.

Mike Buckley wrote in message
...

Further thoughts -

Alternate strategy, extend your paddle on the LEFT hand side of the
boat, moving your grip down the shaft as far as you can get - but NOT
going to pelata. Roll upside down, find the surface of the water and
simply yank your right handdown and across your body as hard as you
can. Finishing with a hip flick. If you get it right you will catch
fresh air for about a second and roll over again on the other side. So
prepare with a brace to stop going over again.

Yes, but think in terms of ending up leaning *forward* as the roll finishes,
not "lying back".


Took me months to get the roll and then I tried it on the left and
couldn't believe how simple it was.

Rounder hulls are sometimes easier to roll. Squared hulls tend to roll
in "steps". Just a thought.

I could never come to terms with the (essential) "hip flick" - if thats an
issue, think about "ramming / lifting / forcing" your knee "thro the deck"
as you progress thro the roll. Following Ewan's advice above, set up with
the paddle on the left, as you start the roll ram your knee hard against
the
deck - works for me!

In this scenario, I forgot to say that it would be the *right" knee you're
using.

Mike.

Thanks for the tips, I have been trying it on both sides and I THINK I
naturally try and do it on my left! I'm going to try and borrow someone
else's boat tomorrow and have a go. As much as everyone says that RPM's are
great, they are defiantly not for me! Just too damn big! Anyway, it's
late, I've just finished work and I'll ramble if I write any more...

Charlie.

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:55:18 +0100, "Charlie"
wrote:


"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
.. .
Good luck. Piece of advice. Learn to roll as soon as you can. It makes
life a whole lot easier if you can roll when you start taking the boat
all the way over in High Brace and Sculling and HB on the Move.

Ha! It's not like I haven't been trying! I just can't seem to get the
oomph to get the boat all the way over. I can get it about half way up
then
it falls back down! Maybe something more suited to me will be easier.
Good
job I like swimming really...

I'll lay odds you are being taught to do it on the right hand side of
the boat. Yes?

Find the surface of the water with the paddle, sweep it out and then
draw it down, using a hip flick to finish things off, lying back and
bringing your head up last type of thing? Yes?

Alternate strategy, extend your paddle on the LEFT hand side of the
boat, moving your grip down the shaft as far as you can get - but NOT
going to pelata. Roll upside down, find the surface of the water and
simply yank your right handdown and across your body as hard as you
can. Finishing with a hip flick. If you get it right you will catch
fresh air for about a second and roll over again on the other side. So
prepare with a brace to stop going over again.

Took me months to get the roll and then I tried it on the left and
couldn't believe how simple it was.

Rounder hulls are sometimes easier to roll. Squared hulls tend to roll
in "steps". Just a thought.




http://101waystocookabeaver.blogspot.com


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In article ,
Charlie wrote:

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...
Good luck. Piece of advice. Learn to roll as soon as you can. It
makes life a whole lot easier if you can roll when you start
taking the boat all the way over in High Brace and Sculling and
HB on the Move.
Ha! It's not like I haven't been trying! I just can't seem to get
the oomph to get the boat all the way over. I can get it about
half way up then it falls back down! Maybe something more suited
to me will be easier. Good job I like swimming really...
If your head comes out of the water and then you roll back down again,
almost certainly you are using the roll action to bring your head out
of the water (too soon) rather than turning the kayak.

The head comes out of the water after the kayak has rotated back past
the vertical. This is where Mike's push with the knee comes in, it
starts the kayak rotating back to the surface. You can help keep your
head in the water by looking at the paddle blade as you sweep it out
to the side of the kayak and roll back up.

The hip flick, or pushing with the knee and keeping your head down can
be learnt by practising eskimo rescues. When you start to do them it
is sometimes really hard to get back up, but if you experiment with
the technique using a hip flick, or knee push to first rotate the
kayak, you suddenly find a way of doing it that is really easy.

[High brace - hasn't this proved to be a good technique for
dislocating a shoulder ?. I don't normally teach a high brace because
of this. Am I wrong ?.]

Bill

--
Dan,Rob,Bill and Celia Oldroyd. We live in Tadcaster, UK.
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/oldieshome/

I could never come to terms with the (essential) "hip flick" - if thats an
issue, think about "ramming / lifting / forcing" your knee "thro the deck"
as you progress thro the roll.

Hah! I almost never call it a hip flick - I usually say lift you
right/ left knee... but I thought that using that term here would
result in a flood of abuse :-)
http://101waystocookabeaver.blogspot.com

[High brace - hasn't this proved to be a good technique for
dislocating a shoulder ?. I don't normally teach a high brace because
of this. Am I wrong ?.]

High brace in front quarter to midship area. On the move you need to
brace in the front quarter as the movement of the boat through the
water will sweep the arm back. If you start midship you will end up in
the rear quarter and in a potential dislocation scenario.
But if we don't teach it how do people know how to use it when they
need it...


http://101waystocookabeaver.blogspot.com

Ha! It's not like I haven't been trying! I just can't seem to get the
oomph to get the boat all the way over. I can get it about half way up then
it falls back down! Maybe something more suited to me will be easier. Good
job I like swimming really...

practice your eskimo rescue useing your hip flip this will help you in rolling.

t.t.f.n david

Mike Buckley wrote:

Personally, I found I learnt to roll with a pawlata and then just keep
shortening the grip until I had a "proper" hand position for a screw/storm
roll. There is a school of thought though that suggests it's best not to
learn this way, as it encourages brute force rather than technique but I
still favour a pawlata as my fail-safe back up when I just *have* to roll.

I learnt that way too, and I think there is an issue with the BFI. So I
could see that a screw and pawlata may be best taught separately, but I
certainly like the p. for my "I need to roll", and if I miss a screw
I'll try again with a pawlata. With a Pawlata there's no need for brute
force, or even a hip flick for that matter! (though it certainly helps)

There is even a suggestion on one of the Australian sea-kayaking sites that
the pawlata should be the roll of choice for sea-paddlers - certainly in
conditions where a failed roll is not an option.

It's one of those context things. Setting up a pawlata in surf is not
something I can see being terribly clever, both in terms of time to set
up and chance of success (coming up to start with, and staying up once
you're there). I don't think anyone saying you ought to do a certain
type of roll just because you're in the sea has thought through the
variety of situations a sea paddler might be in.

Though I did the groundwork in the pool, it was going surfing that got
everything rather more together. Simply a case that it's not if you go
over, but when, so you get lots of practice of rolling "in anger". And
after quite a bit of swimming at first, you generally make the rolls.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

You might like to look at EJ's rolling amnd bracing video / DVD. Common
sense no-nonsense and from someone with twenty years of instructional
experience and probably a better paddler than anyone on here!

It covers mental approaches as well as physical and how to coach the roll
etc...etc...etc

I reckon it's great and you get a glimpse at the new river play boats from
EJ whilst your at it!

Beginners should learn from the highest level of coach...the BCU scheme goes
at it back-to-front!
"David Thompson " wrote in message
...
Ha! It's not like I haven't been trying! I just can't seem to get the
oomph to get the boat all the way over. I can get it about half way up
then
it falls back down! Maybe something more suited to me will be easier.
Good
job I like swimming really...

practice your eskimo rescue useing your hip flip this will help you in
rolling.

t.t.f.n david