Hi All

I did a quick archive search but found nothing too useful. If anyone
could point me in the right direction that would be great.....

I've been getting a lot of comments recently about the size of my
paddle blades. They've been ground down considerably since 1998 and
instead of a symmetric blade shape they are now very similar to a
shrunk kinetic shape.

(This is only because I use my paddles the same way round all the
time. They were any orientation paddles, but luckily I kept using
them the same way and avoided ending up with very expensive cocktail
sticks!)

So enlighten me to the pros and cons of different blade sizes.....

I assume it's a relative assessment, but...

Large blades provide more power, but give a higher chance of injury?

Small blades allow/require a higher stroke rate for equivalent large
blade propulsion?

Is the size irrelevant, because all that is required is enough
friction to plant the blade and pull yourself past the shaft?

Should I buy some new paddles with normal sized blades?

I await your informed replies.
hf
roo

roo wrote:

I assume it's a relative assessment, but...

Large blades provide more power, but give a higher chance of injury?

Small blades allow/require a higher stroke rate for equivalent large
blade propulsion?

As a sea paddler, I find that narrower blades work better in my
particular case. It's like a lower gear on bike, you do have to keep up
a higher work rate, but putting less power into each stroke I find I can
keep going longer in comfort (never mind injury, my arms are just less
fatigued at the end of 20 miles). Also the case that paddling in big
winds is less of a problem with a smaller blade. If you look at
traditional Greenland paddles they're *very* narrow, about 3" or so, but
quite long. By routinely extending one's grip this allows more control
than you might think, and the buoyant nature of the wood makes rolling
and bracing far better than you'd imagine too. A friend of mine that
makes them has been seen happily surfing a playboat at St. Andrews using
Greenland paddles!
I use Lendal Archipelagos, which are about 10% smaller than the
Nordkapps most of the folk in my club use but otherwise the same
(Nordkapps are in turn a little smaller than Powermasters but otherwise
similar). I have Paddlok interchangable blades and a spare set of
Nordkapp blades, so I could easily test the different blades on the
exact same shaft. Doing this I chose the Archs as my main paddles.

Is the size irrelevant, because all that is required is enough
friction to plant the blade and pull yourself past the shaft?

If it is, I'm kidding myself one helluva lot in that last paragraph!

My arms aren't especially *strong*, but they have a fair bit of stamina
so can keep rolling around. The ladies in the club that have borrowed
my paddles also like them in comparison to the club's own Nordkapps. A
couple use and like Seamasters, no longer made but another narrow paddle.

Should I buy some new paddles with normal sized blades?

Do you need more raw power from single strokes? Are your current blades
proving a problem? If you like them and they do what you want, I'd keep
them!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"roo" wrote in message
om...
Hi All

I did a quick archive search but found nothing too useful. If anyone
could point me in the right direction that would be great.....

I've been getting a lot of comments recently about the size of my
paddle blades. They've been ground down considerably since 1998 and
instead of a symmetric blade shape they are now very similar to a
shrunk kinetic shape.

(This is only because I use my paddles the same way round all the
time. They were any orientation paddles, but luckily I kept using
them the same way and avoided ending up with very expensive cocktail
sticks!)

So enlighten me to the pros and cons of different blade sizes.....

I assume it's a relative assessment, but...

Large blades provide more power, but give a higher chance of injury?

Small blades allow/require a higher stroke rate for equivalent large
blade propulsion?

Is the size irrelevant, because all that is required is enough
friction to plant the blade and pull yourself past the shaft?

Should I buy some new paddles with normal sized blades?

I await your informed replies.
hf

Not an expert - so sorry for the basic knowledge, and any egg-suck teaching
going on, but:
1. Longer shaft, Longer, rounder blades = less turbulence in the water =
less power, less drag = more efficient for long distances and smooth easy
strokes. Also, they tend to be less sturdy, possibly offer less support, and
are more likely to be smacked/broken on rocks, so unsuited to shallow/white
water. Best for long distances.
2. Shorter shaft, shorter squarer blades = more turbulence = more power,
more drag = better for short distances, and powerful, controlled strokes.
However, less efficient for long distances. Suited to white water, but not
marathon/touring.

Some open Canoe paddlers I know take both and change depending upon the
stretch of water - but clearly this isn't a luxury offered to those in
Kayaks!

Ken.

Ken Catchpole wrote:

Some open Canoe paddlers I know take both and change depending upon the
stretch of water - but clearly this isn't a luxury offered to those in
Kayaks!

Just get splittable paddles...

Having said that, it's not going to be as easy to swap in a hurry as in
an open canoe!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"roo" wrote in message
om...
Hi All

Hi roo it's been a while!

Large blades provide more power, but give a higher chance of injury?

More power, yes, but you need to be stronger to get the best from them.
Excellent on white water when you need to get as much response as possible
from two or three strokes. I've never seen any evidence that they cause
injuries, but I suppose any paddle which isn't right for the use it's being
put to could do that.

Small blades allow/require a higher stroke rate for equivalent large
blade propulsion?

Short paddles allow (and probably encourage) a higher stroke rate, maybe
that's what you were thinking of. The combination of short paddles and
too-small blades is inefficient.

Is the size irrelevant, because all that is required is enough
friction to plant the blade and pull yourself past the shaft?

Yes size does matter (somebody had to say it) but in practice if you're a
normal size normal strength bloke then buy a normal paddle for the type of
stuff you do. If you're smaller than most (that often means either young or
female of course) then you might benefit from smaller blades.

Should I buy some new paddles with normal sized blades?

Depends on how you fit into the above!

Cheers,
Steve B.

(roo) wrote in message . com...
So enlighten me to the pros and cons of different blade sizes.....

I was once told by a bloke I met on The Awe, that in a normal stroke
the blade hardly moves through the water at all during the stroke. I
guess blade size affects how much it moves - too much (blades too
asmall) and the paddle stroke will be inneficient, too little (blades
too big) and the paddle stroke will be harder work and sore on the
paddler. In terms of power and stroke rate I thinmg that's much more
down to shaft length (ooh er missus) and paddling style than blade
area.

Acceleration from a standing start might be affected, I conce tried
some Inuit blades that seemed little more than a stick flattened at
each end, so felt like they had very little 'blade' area. Once you
were moving they were excellent however, very smooth and fast. Rolling
was fun though!

The above is probably related to efficient and fast forward paddling,
but when the power of the water comes into play (WW, playbobing) then
I would imagine a smaller blade are is indeed safer - I remember being
advised to let go of my blades with one hand if taking the inverted
unplanned green flush route through a big hole.

Is the size irrelevant, because all that is required is enough
friction to plant the blade and pull yourself past the shaft?

I'd guess that's the main design criterion for current blade sizes.

Should I buy some new paddles with normal sized blades?

Depends how different yours are to current models, 10% isn't going to
make much difference, 50% will.

Charlie wrote:

Acceleration from a standing start might be affected, I conce tried
some Inuit blades that seemed little more than a stick flattened at
each end, so felt like they had very little 'blade' area. Once you
were moving they were excellent however, very smooth and fast. Rolling
was fun though!

"Little more"? shurely "nothing more"? ;-)
Rolling is fine, as is bracing and extreme leaned turns, as long as you
remember that using these paddles is at least partly about routine use
of extended grip. As well as the ease of sliding them through your
hands, the very high natural buoyancy makes life easy with them too. In
the pool, at least, I find these easier to roll with than Standard Tat
Pool Paddles as they just float up to where you want them.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch wrote in message ...
Charlie wrote:

I conce tried
some Inuit blades that seemed little more than a stick flattened at
each end,

"Little more"? shurely "nothing more"? ;-)

I cant speak for Charlie directly but I think that he probably meant
"little more". Sounds like the blades were a bit more than a stick
flattened at each end? ;-) If they were "nothing more" wouldn't he
have described a stick flattened at each end that he conce tried to
paddle with.....

Rolling is fine, as is bracing and extreme leaned turns, as long as you
remember that using these paddles is at least partly about routine use
of extended grip.

Explain the extended grip to me for use with these paddles, please.

Cheers for the info people, I'm sticking with my blades for now until
I get an offer I can't refuse.

hf
roo

Some mostly very excellent replies already, but I know you are angling
for an essay from me (I could just e-mail it I suppose...).

I can't recall seeing any wrong answers in there, basically smaller
paddles will slip at a much lower "pull" then large blades. If the
paddle slips in the water, you will be pulling it towards you rather
than you past it, therefore a bigger blade is going to get you moving
faster.

This slippage does however form a sort of safety valve. If you are sea
paddling all day you don't want a paddle that can absorb a huge amount
of power each stroke because it will tire you quickly, and you are
probably right about the injury thing - overworking could leave you
vulnerable to muscle injury. That's why Peter uses Archipelagos and I
use Kinetic touring blades on the sea, but both carry "bigger brother"
blades both as spares and as alternatives in case of waking up and
finding 2' of surf dumping on the launch spot or something A lot of
people just use Nordkapps but they always look more shattered after a
long day! I have tried my Kinetic XTis back to back with the touring
version and they do put more strain on even over a short distance.

But I know you are mostly a river runner!

In river running terms a bigger blade makes sense because when you need
a lot of power, you usually need it very quickly. But some blades out
there designed for slalom and/or white water racing really are a bit
more powerful than you would normally need. To be honest the Kinetic XTi
is probably more powerful than I really need, but I have the shoulders
to cope and my river technique involves a lot of drifting when possible.
Playboating blades are a bit of a mixed bag. Many really are incredibly
powerful, some powerful on the back as well as the face - the reason
being that it takes quite a lot of power to lift half of the boat and
paddler out of the water as so many moves require. Lendal are doing a
blade called the mystik which is designed for playboating/surf, and
which they indicate is probably too small for river running - but myself
and Mark W are experimenting with using these as river blades (in the
lightweight carbon composite construction), and whilst it's been fairly
crappy and dry until recently I have been reasonably impressed with them
so far (mine are on a fixed cranked shaft and are lighter than most
other manufacturers lightweights).

Now for the complex part - why some blades or more efficient or more
effective than others and how size isn't everything!
Your regular symmetric blade works by drag alone, but some of the water
spills around the edges and forms eddies or vortices. These vortices
required energy to start and the robbed it from what you exerted on the
paddle, so a blade that is designed to work in a way that creates less
eddies can turn more of your input power into moving forward. This
doesn't mean that an efficient blade is more tiring - you are getting
more forwards motion out of the same input. Some ways of making blades
more efficient include altering the edge that enters the water first
(make them asymmetric) changing the curvature of the face and the chord
of the foil section. I guess the ultimate expression of this would be
wing paddles although these require a quite different style of paddling
to make the most of them.

Someone suggested that your build is a factor - I would agree! And I
would have to say that you are a fairly average build (although probably
more powerful than average) so a mid sized paddle (standard werners,
mystik, etc.) would probably suit you well but you could probably use a
larger blade like a kinetic XTi or something without any problems.
Basically just a new regular blade will probably be perfect for you!

Here is a test I devised whilst struggling to steer my playboat
successfully down the Etive using my 4 year old (at the time) werners
which I still use on rocky runs like that. Paddle along and try and
sweep the bow up on the move - not like a cartwheel, just a few inches
like boofing a drop or something. Then swap paddles with someone with
new blades (or the ones you've got on demo) and try the same thing
again. If you find that the bow lifts a lot further with the new
paddles, you probably need new ones! I did this after a really
frustrating day when I'd buried the bow on every little drop of 4" or
more and failed to dodge around loads of rocks and stuff. My bow hardly
lifted at all with my werners, but with Jens new but otherwise identical
paddle I was able to lift it 6" with hardly any effort. I then went one
stage further and tried to flatwheel, not a problem with my paddle as it
was impossible to throw the bow down properly, but with Jens I was able
to smash my bow right down onto the riverbed as I usually do with my
kinetics. At this point myself and Neil had old werners that had started
out as 198's - mine measured 194 and his were 190 (or less). We had just
been using them and hadn't really noticed the performance drop off (just
thought we were paddling worse than normal) until we tried new paddles
back to back - the difference really is astonishing!

People have mentioned stroke rate and hinted at the importance of
inertia through the air, or lack of it. I think Roo will have decided on
his ideal shaft length by now based on the ratio of playing to river
running that he does (is sprinting more important than momentum?) so I
would just like to add that in my opinion lightweight paddles are far
superior because they travel through the air more easily which allows
higher stroke rates and more importantly makes it easier to vary stroke
rate and of course absorbs less of your energy over the length of the
paddling day. Some people find them hard to get the hang of because the
lack of inertia feels different, but once you get the hang of them it is
impossible to go back to normal weight paddles (Unfortunately my travel
paddles are kinetic splits so I have to from time to time!).

As for your particular situation, I'm guessing you have plenty of sea
paddling available where you live now - I reckon you should consider a
set up like Marks - 4-way paddlok split carbon composite Mystik paddles
with a short HPS shaft for river running and a longer G1F shaft
(possibly cranked) for sea paddling. Of course you could add bigger or
smaller blades to that setup at a later date if required. Lendal do have
a distributor in NZ so you should be able to get hold of them.

So, anything I've left unclear? I can write another essay tomorrow if
you want

JIM

roo wrote:

Hi All

I did a quick archive search but found nothing too useful. If anyone
could point me in the right direction that would be great.....

I've been getting a lot of comments recently about the size of my
paddle blades. They've been ground down considerably since 1998 and
instead of a symmetric blade shape they are now very similar to a
shrunk kinetic shape.

(This is only because I use my paddles the same way round all the
time. They were any orientation paddles, but luckily I kept using
them the same way and avoided ending up with very expensive cocktail
sticks!)

So enlighten me to the pros and cons of different blade sizes.....

I assume it's a relative assessment, but...

Large blades provide more power, but give a higher chance of injury?

Small blades allow/require a higher stroke rate for equivalent large
blade propulsion?

Is the size irrelevant, because all that is required is enough
friction to plant the blade and pull yourself past the shaft?

Should I buy some new paddles with normal sized blades?

I await your informed replies.
hf
roo

Inuit blades are a little more complex than Peter implies, but the
extreme styles do have blades that are probably no more than twice the
width of the shaft and most of the length of it. Being long and thin
they don't catch the wind so don't need to be feathered, I think the
shafts are ovalled for hands though as most of us are used to on our
paddles these days!

Extended paddle position - you just slide your hands along to one end,
like when you teach beginners to do pawlata rolls. The very narrow
blades mean that this is much easier, which is lucky as it's necessary
to get the extra leverage for certain strokes.

Never had a chance to try proper ones myself, although a friend made
some roughly in the style many years ago.

JIM

roo wrote:

Peter Clinch wrote in message ...

Charlie wrote:


I conce tried
some Inuit blades that seemed little more than a stick flattened at
each end,

"Little more"? shurely "nothing more"? ;-)


I cant speak for Charlie directly but I think that he probably meant
"little more". Sounds like the blades were a bit more than a stick
flattened at each end? ;-) If they were "nothing more" wouldn't he
have described a stick flattened at each end that he conce tried to
paddle with.....


Rolling is fine, as is bracing and extreme leaned turns, as long as you
remember that using these paddles is at least partly about routine use
of extended grip.


Explain the extended grip to me for use with these paddles, please.

Cheers for the info people, I'm sticking with my blades for now until
I get an offer I can't refuse.

hf
roo