Peter wrote:

It is interesting that you teach pawlata first.... I don't anymore for the
reason that people seem to rely on the leverage, and that turns into brute
force with the screw roll.

Makes sense, as that's what I did... Some people have learned starting
with a float assisted hand roll, which really helps tune the hip flick
first thing. OTOH it can be a bit dispiriting at first as it's harder,
and in my case the last time I tried I put my back out and needed two
visits to the osteopath so I'm not personally that keen on practising that!

OTOH I'm not really clued enough to teach anything else, and will
usually only try to teach when I'm all that's available there and then.
Will try an emphasize a good pawlata with prominent hip flick before
moving onto screws in future though!

Reverse Screw: the thing I did wrong for ages is I was pulling the blade
down in the water, rather than sweeping it out.

Having set up and flipped the boat I just couldn't decide what I was
meant to be doing *at all*. It wasn't doing the wrong thing, just going
"errrrrrrrrr?", resetting for a P and coming up that way instead! Down
rather than Out seems to be a common problem for a lot of people doing
any sweeping roll though, AFAICT from our pool sessions.

roll. I still don't like back deck types of rolls, but they definitely have
their uses.

I was just curious really. Main project now is getting screws on my
"bad side" just as good as the other and at a point where "default roll"
is the best side in any given situation, rather than current right
shoulder forwards side. Also working so that any degree of feather or
different control hands aren't a problem (often paddle unfeathered on
the sea if there's no headwind, if there is I sometimes swap control
side thanks to a variable joint shaft and blades that plug into either
end). Slowly getting there...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:19:49 +0000, Peter Clinch
wrote:

Peter wrote:

It is interesting that you teach pawlata first.... I don't anymore for the
reason that people seem to rely on the leverage, and that turns into brute
force with the screw roll.

Makes sense, as that's what I did... Some people have learned starting
with a float assisted hand roll, which really helps tune the hip flick
first thing. OTOH it can be a bit dispiriting at first as it's harder,
and in my case the last time I tried I put my back out and needed two
visits to the osteopath so I'm not personally that keen on practising that!

OTOH I'm not really clued enough to teach anything else, and will
usually only try to teach when I'm all that's available there and then.
Will try an emphasize a good pawlata with prominent hip flick before
moving onto screws in future though!

Reverse Screw: the thing I did wrong for ages is I was pulling the blade
down in the water, rather than sweeping it out.

Having set up and flipped the boat I just couldn't decide what I was
meant to be doing *at all*. It wasn't doing the wrong thing, just going
"errrrrrrrrr?", resetting for a P and coming up that way instead! Down
rather than Out seems to be a common problem for a lot of people doing
any sweeping roll though, AFAICT from our pool sessions.

roll. I still don't like back deck types of rolls, but they definitely have
their uses.

I was just curious really. Main project now is getting screws on my
"bad side" just as good as the other and at a point where "default roll"
is the best side in any given situation, rather than current right
shoulder forwards side. Also working so that any degree of feather or
different control hands aren't a problem (often paddle unfeathered on
the sea if there's no headwind, if there is I sometimes swap control
side thanks to a variable joint shaft and blades that plug into either
end). Slowly getting there...

Not quite age related but on the subject of teaching rolls...

There we were, four adult Coaches teaching " Star/ 3 Star to roll. By
chance we had an extra non-paddler in the pool. First time in a kayak.
My son, not then a coach and still only 17 taught this lad to roll in
five minutes. He couldn't paddle in a straight line, but boy could he
roll....

Ewan Scott
http://www.claytonwestscouts.org.uk

There we were, four adult Coaches teaching " Star/ 3 Star to roll. By
chance we had an extra non-paddler in the pool. First time in a kayak.
My son, not then a coach and still only 17 taught this lad to roll in
five minutes. He couldn't paddle in a straight line, but boy could he
roll....

Ewan Scott
http://www.claytonwestscouts.org.uk


That relates to my experiences...
The easiest people to teach rolling to are the ones with no preconception of
what should be happening.

The rest.... I try to take their minds off the rolling by shouting something
bizarre as they capsize.... "think chocolate" seems to work quite well...
they seem to roll up thinking what the hell was the coach on about...
result.

P
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I was going to stay out of this as I don't coach anymore, but:

I have found that teaching the screw roll is more effective in the past
because:
It relies on technique, you can't bypass with brute force (well it's a
lot harder to anyway)
You don't need to change your hand position so with ovalled looms you
can feel if the paddle is oriented properly
The need to move hands makes the pawlata a poor choice for river
running and I used to coach specifically towards river running
I always found it just as fast to teach and there is no need to
relearn from pawlata to screw roll (because most people don't use full
techinique with a pawlata)

I have a feeling Peter Clinch is mainly involved with sea kayaking,
where the paddler is usually less vulnerable and can take their time
setting up for a Pawlata, so I didn't feel it necessary to convert him
to the screw roll cause

Guiding the paddle (and making sure the pupil understands that they
shouldn't need to use a lot of force against your support) can be a very
good way to introduce the technique as opposed to brute force, because
you prevent it going down and sweep it out they should get the feel for
the idea that round rather than down is the secret.

As for reverse screw rolling my tips a
Lay back and bring the wrist of your rolling hand to your forehead
with the blade face pointing forward (similar to bow rudder position).
Before you capsize, rotate from your waist towards the side the paddle
is on - chances are you will capsize as you do this.
Once upside down, take a moment and make sure you have rotated as far
as you can in this direction, your head should be turned in the paddle
direction and your cheek will be near the surface
Keep your wrist against your forehead
Sit up in the boat, but keep the paddle on the surface as you do so.
To do this you need to untwist from your waist - the key is to open your
eyes and make sure your cheek is still just below the surface as you do
this - keeping that wrist against your head.
The act of sitting up will both sweep the paddle and give you most of
the hip-flick you require at the right time, you will be sitting
slightly forward at the point where you need to let the wrist wander
from the forehead for the final pull/flick. If you find you need to do
a foreward sweep at this point, do it! A reverse roll with a forward
sweep at the end is still faster and in many cases safer than a forward
roll, anyone that tells you you HAVE to get rid of the forward sweep is
talking out of their backside. Obviously if you can master finishing
fully forward ready to do a power stroke you will get a major advantage
on whitewater, but a safe reliable roll is the most important thing to
worry about.

YES, I will always maintain that reverse screw rolling is safer - anyone
arguing against it does it very differently and probably with less
success. If you reread my tips, you fill find that your head is very
close to the surface and your face is sideways to upwards so very much
less vulnerable than forward. If you lock the wrist against your
forehead, you would have to rip your head off before you could
hyperextend your shoulder and dislocate it.

JIM