A few of us intend to try some canoe access to Munros in Scotland. We
are walkers but have never canoed before. Our intention was to try a
small trip on Loch Lyon from the power station end and follow up with
a bigger trip on on Loch Ericht. We can hire canadian canoes locally.

I am looking for any and all advice ? Will we get onto the Loch s
easily ? Are there access problems ? What kind of loads can these
canoes take (tents, climbing gear and people). Any canoe problems we
will encounter ?

Or should we just get on with it and forget planning as usual.

As Peter says, an open canoe is an ideal craft for what you want to do,
but do not do it without adequate preparation which includes learning to
paddle and learning what the limitations regarding the weather are.

I heard a true story a couple of months ago about a group of walkers
several of whom were experienced kayakers who decided to open canoe
across Loch Maree to do Slioch. The wind picked up when they were in the
middle and the boats got swamped. After struggling for a bit most of
them gave up and swam for the shore. The first man ashore noticed one of
the others struggling to swim so went back for him. Eventually a power
boat got out to the 2 that were still with the boats and rescued them.
This was a summer trip and I think only 2 out of a group of 6 did not
need to go to hospital for hypothermia treatment. You want to know why
it all went wrong - they were dressed for walking not canoeing. None
were canoeists although most were river kayakers, and they simply didn't
realise the waves would be a lot bigger further out and how easily opens
can swamp. I don't think they had any self rescue experience in open
boats, and no way to bail swamped boats. Most open boaters would have
recognised the conditions and paddled around the perimeter, some very
experienced open boaters would have known how to trim the boat to handle
in the wind and would have had plenty of extra buoyancy bags and
possibly even a spray cover to make the trip across possible. Just
wearing the correct kit would have given them much longer in the water
to sort themselves out, but you do need to be well practised in sorting
yourself out because it won't keep you alive for ever!

Anyway, doom and gloom aside, yes you can take all your gear in an open
canoe and up to 3 people. 2 people is the best solution as both will be
paddling and the middle area can be filled with gear, but if you get a
16 or 17 foot boat many have a third seat and taking a smaller adult in
the middle is feasible.
Your kit needs to go in waterproof bags/containers. Giant dry bags or
barrels are ideal for this as when lashed into the boat they will
provide buoyancy and take up space that water would otherwise get into
if you swamp. Leave space to bail out, buckets, things like dustpans or
even a portable hand pump all work well - you can take a lot of water in
an open canoe so be prepared for high volume bailing! Fitting big air
bags in any unused space is a good idea too. You need to learn about
trimming your boat - where you position the weight inside can seriously
affect the handling!
Most of all double check the weather forecast and only attempt open
crossings when you are very certain you have several hours of settled
weather. Otherwise paddle around the edge of the loch, taking a note of
wind direction and stay close to the lee shore (that is so if you stop
paddling you get blown to the shore). If the wind is going the same way
as you it will give you a helping hand on your way, you can even use
bivi bags as sails, just remember that the return leg will be a real
upwind slog (you may choose to walk-in in such conditions). You'll be
used to mountain weather, so always be alert for the fact it might just
turn round over a couple of minutes and drop you in an uncomfortable
situation.

Peter mentioned sea kayaks - if you have some kayaking experience
consider them instead. Sea kayaks will take a little less kit than an
open boat, but I use mine for week long trips with all my camping gear,
food and beer stored inside so there is plenty of room! Again you need
some experience and a bit of skill but a sea kayak will not swamp
(unless you capsize and swim) so can continue to power through quite
large waves and against fairly strong winds (I've slogged against force
6 at the end of a week, so slightly less than fully laden but I really
don't recommend it, most people get frightened at force 4). If you get
second hand sea kayaks look out for watertight bulkheads (forward and
aft compartments are separate from the cockpit, so even if you swim your
kit stays dry and the boat stays afloat) and built in pumps. Most new
kayaks come with these things now but you haven't seen the price yet,
second hand is a lot easier!

For something a little less serious there are several modern touring
boats around with near sea kayak qualities but considerably less price
tag which would actually be ideal for what you want to do. Again I would
choose something with at least one bulkhead, and possibly deck lines (to
tie overflow kit on top) - look for perceptions Arcadia and Carolina
kayaks and similar. These sort of boats are slower than sea kayaks with
less room for kit, but faster than open boats and should have enough
space for your walking/climbing gear. They also feel more stable than
high performance kayaks so you would get happy paddling them much more
quickly!

There is no reason why some of you shouldn't paddle opens and others
kayaks, although there will be a tendency to see all that open space and
surreptitiously offload kit into the open boats :-)

Warnings and logistics aside, canoes and/or kayaks are a great way to
see the mountains, just do the preparation!

JIM

Peter Clinch wrote:

Fergie wrote:

A few of us intend to try some canoe access to Munros in Scotland. We
are walkers but have never canoed before. Our intention was to try a
small trip on Loch Lyon from the power station end and follow up with
a bigger trip on on Loch Ericht. We can hire canadian canoes locally.

I am looking for any and all advice ? Will we get onto the Loch s
easily ? Are there access problems ? What kind of loads can these
canoes take (tents, climbing gear and people). Any canoe problems we
will encounter ?


Can't remember what's what with Lyon, but Ericht is *potentially* a good
canoeing loch. With wind (if you can imagine such a thing up there...
oh! you can!) in the wrong direction canoes vary between hard work and
unmanageable, so you'd have to be prepared to get out and stop at almost
any point, and also be prepared to be stuck at the bothy a while (couple
of experienced friends in sea kayaks, which do bad conditions much
better than canoes, had to wait it out a couple of days last year. Since
they'd gone in to supply a walking party with a large supply of alcohol,
they barely escaped with their livers...).

I would personally suggest you wait until you have some canoe
experience. For a short, trivial paddle you can pretty much get into an
open canoe and get about and have fun with no experience, but a loaded
wilderness trip around Drumochter isn't trivial. Aside from the safety
aspect, you'll have a much easier time of it and probably a lot more fun
if you get some instruction in open paddling fist: handling a boat
*well* involves quite a bit of skill.

Once you have got some experience you'll find an open boat is a
wonderful tool for carrying loads in the right conditions, with easy
transport of far more stuff than you could ever walk or cycle with.
You'll want a good supply of dry bags, though.

Pete.

I would personally suggest you wait until you have some canoe
experience. For a short, trivial paddle you can pretty much get into an
open canoe and get about and have fun with no experience, but a loaded
wilderness trip around Drumochter isn't trivial. Aside from the safety
aspect, you'll have a much easier time of it and probably a lot more fun
if you get some instruction in open paddling fist: handling a boat
*well* involves quite a bit of skill.

Once you have got some experience you'll find an open boat is a
wonderful tool for carrying loads in the right conditions, with easy
transport of far more stuff than you could ever walk or cycle with.
You'll want a good supply of dry bags, though.


I would second this. Even with some fairly extensive kayak experience it
took a couple of intesive days to become competent in a canadian. Yes, it's
easy to jump in and go, but without decent training, you'll spend a lot of
time either going round in circles, or fighting your partner. So, one
important benefit from a bit of training would be a much more energy
efficient boat - meaning greater and speedier distances (=greater confort
and greater safety). At the very least, you wouldn't want to venture out
without proper capsize training. Though it's not that easy to get one
upside-down, if it does happen the amount of water that a canadian can hold
means you're going to be in trouble unless you know what you are doing.
You'd also be well served by getting some appreciation of how difficult the
wind can be.

One of the things that struck me is how much skill is required to paddle a
canadian. With kayaks, what you have to do is fairly transparent and a great
deal can come naturally (= easy 'pick-up-and-go'). Due to size, weight, and
manning differences, canadians are far less straightforward, and a great
deal more technical, to learn.

Thanks a lot for the info guys ..very much appreciated.

Peter Clinch wrote:

Jim Wallis wrote:

Peter mentioned sea kayaks - if you have some kayaking experience
consider them instead. Sea kayaks will take a little less kit than an
open boat


Quite a bit less, and whatever you take has to load through relatively
small hatches so it takes practice to optimise the space you do have.
Having said that, I can pack roughly two full expedition rucksack loads
into mine without too much trouble, and weight is effectively a
non-issue.

:-)

I can certainly load far more weight and volume of kit into my sea kayak
than I could ever carry in one go. In fact I doubt if I could transfer
it all from car to boat in less than 3 trips, so even of you want to
take a load of stuff to set up a base camp for a few days or a week of
walking/climbing you should have no trouble. Packing becomes an art though!

As an example, at Easter I had paddling and camping kit for myself for a
week, the stove and fuel (offloaded the pans) and around a third of the
food (between 3 of us), around 5 litres of water, plus my SLR in it's
pelicase and several other creature comforts. But the first things into
the boat were 12 cans of beer, 4 bottles of beer, a bottle of wine and
my hip flask..... I did have some stuff on deck though :-)

If you consider my previous warnings and consider some training
essential, I would recommend kayaking or canoeing as an extension to
exploring the mountains!

If you travel lightweight (with canoes or lightweight kayaks rather than
sea kayaks) you could even carry your boats on the mountain and use them
on another loch system to get to other mountains or return a different
way. Sounds a bit way out, but I've met an American who (with a group of
people) hiked for 3 days over Mt Whitney (well a pass over the shoulder)
carrying whitewater kayaks for a descent of the headwaters of the Kern
river. They had originally planned to use horses to carry most of their
kit, but due to a late snowmelt the horses weren't acclimatised in time
so they carried it all on their backs....
I've also heard stories of such things in Scotland (hiking over a Munro
to get to the upper reaches of the Feshie for example) so whilst unusual
it wouldn't be unique!

JIM

Peter Clinch wrote in message
...
snip
Quite a bit less, and whatever you take has to load through relatively
small hatches so it takes practice to optimise the space you do have.
Having said that, I can pack roughly two full expedition rucksack loads
into mine without too much trouble, and weight is effectively a
non-issue.

snip again .......

I wouldn't think it's that realistic as there's not much opportunity to
hire boats :-(

On the subject of hiring boats EKC hired some recently from Port Edgar in
Edinburgh which were pretty good for hire boats (Seayaks and Zodiaks if I
remember correctly)- much better than expected in fact! Ok so they were
plastic but they did have VERY big hatches which didn't leak and were much
less hassle to pack than the small ones on people's own fibreglass boats.
They were new boats this year so were very bright and shiny (though they
sustained a few scrapes on our trip around Lismore). We got charged £35 per
boat Friday-Sunday I think - not sure what their policy is on lending to
individuals rather than clubs, but maybe worth a try.

Also on the subject of hiring boats I was wondering whether to put a section
on where to hire boats in Scotland on the SCA website. Would anyone find
this useful? (I was thinking of including contact details of any
organisations which hire boats with details of cost, type, number, and any
restrictions e.g club use only, can only be used at a set location etc.)
Could anyone with comments on this contact me direct as well as posting here
please.

--
Cheers
Janet

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