On Aug 22, 3:58 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
do yourself a favor and carry a hand held uhf radio or something and
if you see people, motorboat or not, acting like asses call the police/
coast guard."

That's a really good idea. You'll make so many friends and gain so much
respect that way. Be sure to curse and make obscene gestures as they go by
too. You wouldn't want to miss out on any opportunity to make an
impression.

No, you have to nice to people, even the ones that threaten your life.
It's the Christian thing to do. That's why I tell them, "Hey, don't
eat me, you can eat my banana!"


This is all a great way to ensure that, when others don't have a legal
obligation to consider your needs. they are considerate anyway and even to
be really sure that, should you ever actually need somebody with a powered
boat to assist you that they'll do so without hesitation.

Some of them are real nice, real captains. Once one in Key Largo
helped us recover a sunken kayak.

It's like there's decent people driving SUVs, just that many of them
are reckless and they have made the wrong vehicle choice.


Here are a couple of clues. Power boaters have been picked on, harassed,
limited, and taxed almost out of their activities. It takes hours for them
to get where their fishing, diving, or other activities take place because
they have to travel at idle speed to keep manatees never seen in the area,
safe just in case they every happen to be there. They pay substantially
more for the fuel that the use simply because they use it on the water.
They bought their very expensive boats either because that's what they
enjoy, because that's what it takes to do what they bought a boat for, or
because they don't have the time to use slower, more economical vessels. No
matter what the reason, they have a right and a right to expect to be able
to use them to their maximum potential when and where the law allows.

Sometimes that law doesn't exist or is not enforced and they just
follow the Law of the Jungle. If you talk about the channels their
speeds are not terribly willd, but still you are a sitting duck.

In certain spots of the intracostal and the beach, though, they just
fly over the water with their cigarette boats. It's common sight there
that they just fly by past the buoys, a few hundred feet from the
beach. If you go there to relax, their roaring motors will remind you
there's no place to hide. Well, try ear plugs perhaps.

C'mon, there's no control to this? Can't we have them stay at least 1
mile from shore?


You guys, and I, for that matter, have chosen a slower, more sedate and less
expensive mode of transportation for very different reasons. We don't us
kayaks to do the things others do in power, or sail boats. We can get closer
to nature, into places that power boats can and should not go, and generally
relax in ways unique to us. Why not do that in places best suited to what
we enjoy? Why encroach on the few places left that power boaters can use
their transportation the way the want and bitch about them doing it?

I've said the weekends belong to the predators. I even grant them the
daylight because I don't want to see their garbage. But going past the
buoys at the beach is reasonable, since staying within them would make
me a danger to the swimmers, and I don't want to become the predator.


One more thing to keep in mind. It costs you nothing to wait a minute for a
power boat to pass. It probably costs a boat 25 feet or more in length, and
certainly the high speed monohulls you guys were complaining about, anywhere
from $10 to $20 extra to slow down and return to a plane. Perhaps that will
give you at least a little understanding of why they are so reluctant to do
so.

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.


You want to cross the channel, no problem. Find someplace where speed is
limited and go for it. God knows such places are all over the Intracoastal
You want to share areas where boats go faster, great, do it out of the
channels, in shallower water where your vessel is designed to go and power
boats aren't.

There's no safe intersections in those channels, much less a signal
light.

You just go for it and pray to come out alive.


You want consideration, so do the power boaters. You want consideration
from them, try giving it to them.

I do. The problem is NOT them actually. But the whole set up where we
--kayakers and canoeists-- are exposed to uncessary dangers, and where
they can speed, drink, get high, be reckless, and get away with it.


Now, before you guys get all excited and tell everybody about the
occasionally jerk, ask yourself this. For every time a power boater
inconvenienced you, how many times do you suppose the power boater was
inconvenienced by you.

Lee

Some steering from them to avoid you is NOT an inconvenience. The
ocean is full of different species, and we all must get along, or
declare that the only law out there is the Law of the Jungle.

Hey, people who got "money to burn" can try sailing, that is more
rewarding and totally environmentally friendly. Motorboats which are
needed for fishing are OK too since they serve a purpose. And then you
can always choose the smaller motorboats out there.

Sometimes that law doesn't exist or is not enforced and they just
follow the Law of the Jungle. If you talk about the channels their
speeds are not terribly willd, but still you are a sitting duck.

It exists everywhere you're ever likely to be in your kayak. There's more
enforcement on the intracoastal, per boater, than in any city or state
anywhere near here.

Yes, you are a sitting duck, which is a really good reason not to go where
you can't be safe. I presume you would not ride your bicycle on I-95, which
would you ride you kayak in a zone where running on a plane is legal?

But going past the
buoys at the beach is reasonable, since staying within them would make
me a danger to the swimmers, and I don't want to become the predator.

Yes it is.

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.

Depends on where you are. I was talking about the channel. It's not best to
predicably paddle out in front of a power boat legally on a plane. Out by
the buoys, is a different story. Both of you are responsible. There are
boats out there on autopilot and, no matter what color your kayak is, you're
not as visible as you think.

There's no safe intersections in those channels, much less a signal
light.

Yes, there are. You just choose not to travel to one of them.

I do. The problem is NOT them actually. But the whole set up where we
--kayakers and canoeists-- are exposed to uncessary dangers, and where
they can speed, drink, get high, be reckless, and get away with it.

You can kayak to your hearts content in most of the lakes in south Florida,
places where no powerboater is allowed at all. You can kayak in any of the
no internal combustion areas in south Florida, places where power boats are
not allowed at all. You can cross any of the hundreds of acres of flats,
where power boats can't go at all. What's wrong with some places that power
boaters can go?

Some steering from them to avoid you is NOT an inconvenience.

It depends, doesn't it?

Lee

In article ,
KingOfTheApes wrote:
On Aug 22, 3:58 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
do yourself a favor and carry a hand held uhf radio or something and
if you see people, motorboat or not, acting like asses call the police/
coast guard."

Why not have a VHF? You can listen in to the VTC, and be told about the
big boats arriving in good time. I have a lot of use for that when
sailing inside VTC zones.

Some of them are real nice, real captains. Once one in Key Largo
helped us recover a sunken kayak.

It's like there's decent people driving SUVs, just that many of them
are reckless and they have made the wrong vehicle choice.


Here are a couple of clues. Power boaters have been picked on, harassed,
limited, and taxed almost out of their activities. It takes hours for them
to get where their fishing, diving, or other activities take place because
they have to travel at idle speed to keep manatees never seen in the area,
safe just in case they every happen to be there. They pay substantially
more for the fuel that the use simply because they use it on the water.
They bought their very expensive boats either because that's what they
enjoy, because that's what it takes to do what they bought a boat for, or
because they don't have the time to use slower, more economical vessels. No
matter what the reason, they have a right and a right to expect to be able
to use them to their maximum potential when and where the law allows.

The law abiding skippers sometimes have a pretty hard time with all the
other craft. Just listen to the commercial fishing skippers.

Sometimes that law doesn't exist or is not enforced and they just
follow the Law of the Jungle. If you talk about the channels their
speeds are not terribly willd, but still you are a sitting duck.

In certain spots of the intracostal and the beach, though, they just
fly over the water with their cigarette boats. It's common sight there
that they just fly by past the buoys, a few hundred feet from the
beach. If you go there to relax, their roaring motors will remind you
there's no place to hide. Well, try ear plugs perhaps.

C'mon, there's no control to this? Can't we have them stay at least 1
mile from shore?

Zoning?

You guys, and I, for that matter, have chosen a slower, more sedate and less
expensive mode of transportation for very different reasons. We don't us
kayaks to do the things others do in power, or sail boats. We can get closer
to nature, into places that power boats can and should not go, and generally
relax in ways unique to us. Why not do that in places best suited to what
we enjoy? Why encroach on the few places left that power boaters can use
their transportation the way the want and bitch about them doing it?

I've said the weekends belong to the predators. I even grant them the
daylight because I don't want to see their garbage. But going past the
buoys at the beach is reasonable, since staying within them would make
me a danger to the swimmers, and I don't want to become the predator.

With sailboats, we can escape to the ocean. Very few bubbas and incompetent
motorboat skippers there.

One more thing to keep in mind. It costs you nothing to wait a minute for a
power boat to pass. It probably costs a boat 25 feet or more in length, and
certainly the high speed monohulls you guys were complaining about, anywhere
from $10 to $20 extra to slow down and return to a plane. Perhaps that will
give you at least a little understanding of why they are so reluctant to do
so.

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.

A word from some commercial captains I know.

Pleasure boaters are normally not aware of the traffic control and zone
separation in place; and even some quite experiencd amateur skippers are
clueless about how a large, commercial vessel stops. Hint: You don't want
to be in front of them.

They try to manouver as well as they can; but they really need the zone
space they are given in and out of ports. If you cross the separation zones
please do so at a fixed course and speed at as sharp an angle to the lanes
as you can. The large ships have automatic anti-collision trackers that
are _extremely_ useful in such waters, but they tend to give lots of
false alarms on small craft that zigzag in and out of lanes.

I just cheched the Miami area on commercial charts. It is chock full
of separation sones and report requirements almost halfway to Bahamas.
If you are unaware of these zones you will make a lot of commercial ships
hate you intensely when you are there, even in a Kayak. Especially
in a kayak.

You want to cross the channel, no problem. Find someplace where speed is
limited and go for it. God knows such places are all over the Intracoastal
You want to share areas where boats go faster, great, do it out of the
channels, in shallower water where your vessel is designed to go and power
boats aren't.

There's no safe intersections in those channels, much less a signal
light.

Nope. But when you cross, do so in a way predictable to the large vessels.

They also need 5-7 knots of speed to be able to manouver properly. With
less than 3 knots they are dead in the water and need thrusters and/or
tugs to operate. You really DON'T want them to have to press the brake for
you.

You just go for it and pray to come out alive.

You want consideration, so do the power boaters. You want consideration
from them, try giving it to them.

I do. The problem is NOT them actually. But the whole set up where we
--kayakers and canoeists-- are exposed to uncessary dangers, and where
they can speed, drink, get high, be reckless, and get away with it.

A few inquests has done away with that here. Suddenly the promising
salarymen were cons with drug&alcohol and violence crimes on their
records. Not what you would like on your CV.

Several of these inquests had other, experienced boaters who kept
their calm as witnesses.

Now, before you guys get all excited and tell everybody about the
occasionally jerk, ask yourself this. For every time a power boater
inconvenienced you, how many times do you suppose the power boater was
inconvenienced by you.

Lee

Some steering from them to avoid you is NOT an inconvenience. The
ocean is full of different species, and we all must get along, or
declare that the only law out there is the Law of the Jungle.

Hey, people who got "money to burn" can try sailing, that is more
rewarding and totally environmentally friendly. Motorboats which are
needed for fishing are OK too since they serve a purpose. And then you
can always choose the smaller motorboats out there.

Money to burn, indeed. I could buy a complete set of diving gear
for what a new Genua costs. And I have a 22 year old 36' boat.

-- mrr

Morten Reistad wrote:

Money to burn, indeed. I could buy a complete
set of diving gear for what a new Genua costs.
And I have a 22 year old 36' boat.

That might depend on what calls a 'complete' set.

As in everything else, there's the bare-bones basics and then there's
the more serious stuff, particularly when it comes to specialized
ares. For example, the Ikelite SS-200 strobe heads I have for my old
35mm underwater camera cost me $1K each...and they aren't compatible
with going digital. Another high ticket item is a quality drysuit for
use in colder climates. Figure spending $2K for that with one basic
set of underwear. Its all too easy to have the same stereotype of
'bubba diver' recreationalist as it is for power boating in a 17ft
fiberglass runabout with too much horsepower & beer.


-hh

In article ,
-hh wrote:
Morten Reistad wrote:

Money to burn, indeed. I could buy a complete
set of diving gear for what a new Genua costs.
And I have a 22 year old 36' boat.

That might depend on what calls a 'complete' set.

As in everything else, there's the bare-bones basics and then there's
the more serious stuff, particularly when it comes to specialized
ares. For example, the Ikelite SS-200 strobe heads I have for my old
35mm underwater camera cost me $1K each...and they aren't compatible
with going digital. Another high ticket item is a quality drysuit for
use in colder climates. Figure spending $2K for that with one basic
set of underwear. Its all too easy to have the same stereotype of
'bubba diver' recreationalist as it is for power boating in a 17ft
fiberglass runabout with too much horsepower & beer.

Basic, cheap dacron 140% Genua for 14.65 meter mast : $3500
150% dacron with some fibres for stiffening : $4500
Mylar 150% deck-swiper with woven fibres : $6000
...
Kevlar/Carbon racing genua, 150% : $14000

I guess you could just squeeze in ABC/wetsuit/tank/bcd/reg+bottom timer for $3500.

$14k should buy you a decent computer, doubles, drysuit&undergarments and a camera too.

-- mrr

On Aug 25, 6:07*pm, Morten Reistad wrote:
In article ,



-hh wrote:
Morten Reistad wrote:

Money to burn, indeed. I could buy a complete
set of diving gear for what a new Genua costs.
And I have a 22 year old 36' boat.

That might depend on what calls a 'complete' set.

As in everything else, there's the bare-bones basics and then there's
the more serious stuff, particularly when it comes to specialized
ares. *For example, the Ikelite SS-200 strobe heads I have for my old
35mm underwater camera cost me $1K each...and they aren't compatible
with going digital. *Another high ticket item is a quality drysuit for
use in colder climates. *Figure spending $2K for that with one basic
set of underwear. *Its all too easy to have the same stereotype of
'bubba diver' recreationalist as it is for power boating in a 17ft
fiberglass runabout with too much horsepower & beer.

Basic, cheap dacron 140% Genua for 14.65 meter mast : $3500
150% dacron with some fibres for stiffening * * * * : $4500
Mylar 150% deck-swiper with woven fibres * * * * * *: $6000
..
Kevlar/Carbon racing genua, 150% * * * * * * * * * *: $14000

I guess you could just squeeze in ABC/wetsuit/tank/bcd/reg+bottom timer for $3500.

$14k should buy you a decent computer, doubles, drysuit&undergarments and a camera too.

In the old days of 35mm film, a Nikonos V body was $700, the Nikkor
15mm WA lens with viewfinder was $2K, plus the strobe heads that I
currently have were $1K each, plus strobe arms, chargers & other
bits. I figure that I had spent around $6K for my current setup.

In going digital:

$~3.K - Canon 5D replacement that's rumored to be announced tomorrow
$1.6K - "cheap" (pexiglass) Ikelite housing
$0.6K - 8" port for above, with one modular extension
$0.8K - decent WA lens (17-35mm L)
$1.0K - Ikelite DS-160 strobe head, synch cord & charger
$0.8K - Ikelite DS-160 strobe head & synch cord
$0.2K - two spare strobe battery packs
$~.5K - Ultralite strobe arms (if I'm lucky)
--------
$8.5K and counting. Still haven't picked up the misc bits or a case
to transport it in.

If you want to take it to a high end system, add another $2-$3K to
move up from a pexiglass housing to metal casting, as well as another
$3K-$5K to go to a Pro camera body (1Ds Mark III)...and bump the
strobes up to the digital replacement model of what I have now
(DS-200)...and add a few more lenses and matching port extensions.
Very easy to crack $14K for just the UW camera.


-hh

On Aug 25, 5:51*pm, -hh wrote:

If you want to take it to a high end system, add another $2-$3K to
move up from a pexiglass housing to metal casting, as well as another
$3K-$5K to go to a Pro camera body (1Ds Mark III)...and bump the
strobes up to the digital replacement model of what I have now
(DS-200)...and add a few more lenses and matching port extensions.
Very easy to crack $14K for just the UW camera.

Not sure the pro camera bodies are worth it. Plenty of u/w "pros" are
using "semi-pro". Speaking of which, I picked up an extra D200 body,
brand new, for under $1,000 from B&H. That's the problem with digital
camera housings, once your camera becomes obsolete and it floods,
prepare to buy a new housing or find what you can on eBay. This will
be an insurance policy to extend the life of my expensive housing,
plus serve as a land camera since I can leave the strap on full-time.

So now, packing my camera for Bonaire next week, I'm bringing 2 camera
bodies, 4 lenses, 4 camera batteries, camera battery charger, various
filters and diopters, 3 strobes, 4 strobe battery packs, 3 strobe
battery chargers, 2 sync cords, focus light, assorted arms and clamps,
camera housing, extended viewfinder, two ports, various extension
rings and focus gears, all packed in a nice indestructable case that
comes out to just over 65 lbs full. Oh, and the laptop, memory cards,
and memory card reader, can't forget those. The cameras and lenses
and laptop obviously have to go in carry-on, along with the regs and
computers, and now the airlines have cut luggage limits to 50 lbs, one
bag per passenger.

Which reminds me, time to renew my insurance on all that since I dare
not lock any of it for TSA, and Bonaire isn't exactly the most crime-
free destination.

10 Cyclists Struck by a Taxi on the Causeway to Miami Beach

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=457751


"A civilized society cannot let the law of the jungle rule its roads;
if we want to ensure fairness, government must act to protect the
weak."

And why should we protect the monkey, not the lion? Because then the
lion will eat the monkey, stupid. And that keeps the other monkeys
terrorized, which is not what we want. We want them to come out,
right?

Here's a smart comment on the subject...

"The purpose of the police power is to protect public health, safety,
and welfare. When it comes down to cars vs. bicycles, the latter need
greater protection than the former -- after all, cars kill more
Americans than guns do, whereas beds kill more Americans than bikes
do.

That's why places which truly embrace bicycling as a valid (and safe)
mode of transportation have laws that aren't fair: bicycles get more
rights than cars. In many northern European countries, the driver is
always at fault in a bicycle-car crash. Some municipalities even
completely exempt bicycles from many road regulations (like one-way
traffic flow) -- since such regulations are often intended to regulate
cars (in the one-way example, that street might be too narrow for two
cars to pass but plenty wide for two bikes to pass).

A civilized society cannot let the law of the jungle rule its roads;
if we want to ensure fairness, government must act to protect the
weak.

The #1 reason that people cite for not bicycling more often is that
they feel that biking is unsafe. It isn't, really -- in fact, not
bicycling degrades your life expectancy more than bicycling -- but it
can be made much safer through good policies, enforced fairly."

Posted by PCC | June 25, 2008 8:30 PM

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.c..._hierarchy.php

On Aug 24, 7:07*am, Morten Reistad wrote:

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.

A word from some commercial captains I know.

Pleasure boaters are normally not aware of the traffic control and zone
separation in place; and even some quite experiencd amateur skippers are
clueless about how a large, commercial vessel stops. Hint: You don't want
to be in front of them.

They try to manouver as well as they can; but they really need the zone
space they are given in and out of ports. If you cross the separation zones
please do so at a fixed course and speed at as sharp an angle to the lanes
as you can. The large ships have automatic anti-collision trackers that
are _extremely_ useful in such waters, but they tend to give lots of
false alarms on small craft that zigzag in and out of lanes.

I just cheched the Miami area on commercial charts. It is chock full
of separation sones and report requirements almost halfway to Bahamas.
If you are unaware of these zones you will make a lot of commercial ships
hate you intensely when you are there, even in a Kayak. Especially
in a kayak.

Basically there are two kinds of zones he "THE HAVES" & "THE HAVES
NOT."

And the kayakers must stay in the area of the haves not, because if
not they are fair game.

Otherwise, go out when the haves are working or sleeping.

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT), ComandanteBanana
wrote:

On Aug 24, 7:07=A0am, Morten Reistad wrote:

The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you
at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and
hopefully they'll steer around you.

A word from some commercial captains I know.

Pleasure boaters are normally not aware of the traffic control and zone
separation in place; and even some quite experiencd amateur skippers are
clueless about how a large, commercial vessel stops. Hint: You don't want
to be in front of them.

They try to manouver as well as they can; but they really need the zone
space they are given in and out of ports. If you cross the separation zon=
es
please do so at a fixed course and speed at as sharp an angle to the lane=
s
as you can. The large ships have automatic anti-collision trackers that
are _extremely_ useful in such waters, but they tend to give lots of
false alarms on small craft that zigzag in and out of lanes.

I just cheched the Miami area on commercial charts. It is chock full
of separation sones and report requirements almost halfway to Bahamas.
If you are unaware of these zones you will make a lot of commercial ships
hate you intensely when you are there, even in a Kayak. Especially
in a kayak.

Basically there are two kinds of zones he "THE HAVES" & "THE HAVES
NOT."

And the kayakers must stay in the area of the haves not, because if
not they are fair game.

Otherwise, go out when the haves are working or sleeping.
Damn, what an ass, you must be French