Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
PG wrote: Coming back to the original question, are conservatives those who want change (law of the jungle), or those who want to preserve stability (things were good back then...)? Conservatives are the dinosaur in the story. They are unmovable, lazy (they want no effort) and stupid. And I say stupid because in the end their size will be their doom. They can't have fun without 260hp... Efficient creatures (sardines, ants, cyclists, kayakers) have a much brighter future, particularly now that the barrel of oil hit $60--and rising. And they shall inherit the Earth (the meek shall...). Well, there's a revolution for them now. "The Kayakers' Revolution" Well guys, I'm not positive yet about the name of the revolution, whether banana, sardines, cyclits' or simply kayakers' revolution. But at least I've got a pretty good idea about the content, and that's good, right? Anyway, are you tired of all those revolution and counter-revolutions in Latin America that confuse you more than politics in America, and that send THOUSANDS LOOKING FOR REFUGE IN AMERICA? Well, here's YOUR revolution... *** "Do you want Revolution or Counter-Revolution--or none?" 'World Economic Forum chief economist Mr. Augusto Lopez-Claros said that the Nordic countries provide a "workable model for the rest of the world"' Latin American "revolutions"...always a violent monkey in power, who, of course, kicked out a Hungry Lion. Then all those accusations and counter-accusations, plots and counter-plots, armamentism and counter-armamentism, revolution and counter-revolution... But all this eats up the resources of the little people who must be wondering where's their part. Meanwhile nice and quietly some countries in the world lead all rankings important to people, all within Freedom and Abundance. And most importantly, they lead the way in empowering women, not a macho man. Well, I could be talking about the Banana Revolution (links below), but not quite, I'm talking some real working models that are the basis for it... Nordic countries top women/men equality ranking Nordic women enjoy a higher standard of living than women in other parts of the world. According to the 2005 Gender Gap Index published by the World Economic Forum, the Nordic countries have the most gender-equal society in the world The Most Gender-Equal Countries in the World The Nordics are providing a workable model for the rest of the world The WEF report is the first ever study to assess the size of the gap between men and women in five areas: equal pay for equal work, access to the labour market, representation of women in politics, access to education, and access to health care. The aim of the report is to allow countries to identify their strengths and weaknesses in an area that is of critical importance for development, and to provide opportunities for countries to learn from the experiences of others that have been more successful in promoting the equality of women and men. World Economic Forum chief economist Mr. Augusto Lopez-Claros said that the Nordic countries provide a "workable model for the rest of the world" and that "it is not surprising that the Nordic countries also occupy privileged positions in the global competitiveness rankings". Mr. Lopez-Claros declared that the Nordics "have understood the economic incentive behind empowering women: countries that do not fully capitalise on one-half of their human resources are clearly undermining their competitive potential". The WEF report noted that the Nordic countries are characterised by strongly liberal societies with an impressive record of openness and transparency in government, and comprehensive welfare systems that provide security to vulnerable groups in the population. That allows Nordic women to have access to a wider spectrum of educational, political and work opportunities, and to enjoy a higher standard of living than women in other parts of the world. http://www.scandinavica.com/cu__ltu...ty/equality.htm THE BANANA REVOLUTION http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote40 WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE http://committed.to/justiceforpeace COMING OUT OF THE JUNGLE http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote1 __________________ "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" -M.L. King see thread... http://www.paddling.net/message/show...ter&tid=345595 |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
The problem with most (political) revolutions is that they end up devouring
those who start them. The chaos caused by the deliberate break-down of old rules is used by the opportunistic (and ruthless) to seize control of the movement and install their own power structure. Elimination of those with principles and morals usually quickly follows. These are the true predators. As for the person who needs 260 HP to have fun, that's not a predator, that's a sheep with vision problems. The cure for that is in the works. With the price of a barrel of oil spiking towards $100 per barrel (not there yet, but soon), a lot of consumption-oriented expenditures become discretionary. I share a waterway with many boats and it brings a smile to my face when I think of how much someone is spending to propel themselves from point A to point B with no purpose other than to "have fun". Of course, there is always the idiot boater who is drunk and can't figure out where they are going or what they are prone to hit, but the same idiots are also driving their trucks and endangering other peoples' lives on land as well. Even in the kayaking world, we have the whole spectrum of those who are perfectly happy in a stubby plastic rec boat, and those who disdain anything that isn't kelvar/graphic fiber with a 30 lb. net weight. The latter group is just as consumeristic as the ones who drive SUV's or big boats. The same situation with cyclists - there are those who are happy with a single-speed upright and those who drill out their magnesium/titanium derailers. You can put a consumer mind into the most environmentally-friendly transport system, and they will still be consumers. Heh, but that's humanity for you. :-) |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
I wonder what Mark Twain's version of the Bible would look like?
"Scott" wrote in message ... "PG" wrote in message ... Frankly, I think God has a very keen sense of humor, but most of us just aren't getting the joke. "If I were to construct a God I would furnish Him with some way and qualities and characteristics which the Present lacks. He would not stoop to ask for any man's compliments, praises, flatteries; and He would be far above exacting them. I would have Him as self-respecting as the better sort of man in these regards. He would not be a merchant, a trader. He would not buy these things. He would not sell, or offer to sell, temporary benefits of the joys of eternity for the product called worship. I would have Him as dignified as the better sort of man in this regard. He would value no love but the love born of kindnesses conferred; not that born of benevolences contracted for. Repentance in a man's heart for a wrong done would cancel and annul that sin; and no verbal prayers for forgiveness be required or desired or expected of that man. In His Bible there would be no Unforgiveable Sin. He would recognize in Himself the Author and Inventor of Sin and Author and Inventor of the Vehicle and Appliances for its commission; and would place the whole responsibility where it would of right belong: upon Himself, the only Sinner. He would not be a jealous God--a trait so small that even men despise it in each other. He would not boast. He would keep private Hs admirations of Himself; He would regard self-praise as unbecoming the dignity of his position. He would not have the spirit of vengeance in His heart. Then it would not issue from His lips. There would not be any hell--except the one we live in from the cradle to the grave. There would not be any heaven--the kind described in the world's Bibles. He would spend some of His eternities in trying to forgive Himself for making man unhappy when he could have made him happy with the same effort and he would spend the rest of them in studying astronomy. - Mark Twain's Notebook |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
PG wrote: The problem with most (political) revolutions is that they end up devouring those who start them. The chaos caused by the deliberate break-down of old rules is used by the opportunistic (and ruthless) to seize control of the movement and install their own power structure. Elimination of those with principles and morals usually quickly follows. These are the true predators. Not necessarily true. Remember, America is the fruit of one.... Well, maybe that's the wrong example. But how are you going to jump start the dinosaur into action? Who's going to stop the onslaught on the environment? As for the person who needs 260 HP to have fun, that's not a predator, that's a sheep with vision problems. The cure for that is in the works. With the price of a barrel of oil spiking towards $100 per barrel (not there yet, but soon), a lot of consumption-oriented expenditures become discretionary. I share a waterway with many boats and it brings a smile to my face when I think of how much someone is spending to propel themselves from point A to point B with no purpose other than to "have fun". Of course, there is always the idiot boater who is drunk and can't figure out where they are going or what they are prone to hit, but the same idiots are also driving their trucks and endangering other peoples' lives on land as well. Even in the kayaking world, we have the whole spectrum of those who are perfectly happy in a stubby plastic rec boat, and those who disdain anything that isn't kelvar/graphic fiber with a 30 lb. net weight. The latter group is just as consumeristic as the ones who drive SUV's or big boats. The same situation with cyclists - there are those who are happy with a single-speed upright and those who drill out their magnesium/titanium derailers. You can put a consumer mind into the most environmentally-friendly transport system, and they will still be consumers. Heh, but that's humanity for you. :-) The kibbutz solve that consumeristic drive the simple way: SHARING. In our case, it could be 5 kayaks for 150 people say. I'm I getting too political? Please see... Going back to the coops, here are some good reasons why many people would join them if given the choice... "Most people are living on Kibbutz Arava for two reasons: 1.) to be able to work for themselves [no politician, no bureaucrat, no boss, in other words, no lion], and 2.) to be able to raise their children in a safe and comfortable environment [in other words, no jungle]. In a world whose cities are increasingly becoming more polarized and violent, these basic wants/needs are synonymous with life on a kibbutz. Internally, Kibbutz Arava functions rather communally and ecologically. There is a central dining room and commons area. Food that is eaten in the dining room arrives as bulk, wholesale crates, thus eliminating retail wastes such as packaging and plastic wrappers. The kibbutz is a pedestrian community. People are able to walk and ride their bikes to any kibbutz activity. In fact, there are only five leisure cars available for the 130 adult members. On kibbutz, people don't throw much away. When things break, they are fixed either by the garage, carpentry shop, or laundry. Things are not easily thrown away, as items are scarce. There are public commodities, such as a coffee and tea lounge, a pool, an entertainment area, a computer and fax room, a music studio, and a horse stable. By offering these amenities, the kibbutz eliminates the need for everyone to have their own TV, computer, etc [no consumerism, which feeds the lion]." kibbutz... http://www.objectsspace.com/encyclop...ex.php/Kibbutz Behind Consumption and Consumerism... http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRel...onsumption.asp |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
While I think I understand your admiration of the kibbutz culture, it takes
a stongly ideological person to participate and make it work. I knew one person who had been part of the kibbutz, and while one data point doesn't constitute proof of anything, he gave me the feeling that he would be a good communist if he was so inclined, as his ideological fervor was almost religious in intensity. By contrast, the majority of people I come across in the North American context seem very unwilling to share, and although most pride themselves on being "good people", there is very little enthusiasm for restricting their own freedom (to do, to consume, to enjoy the fruits of their labor) in support of the common good. Part of my work involves getting into peoples' heads to understand how and why they make various decisions (purchase of goods, selection of a service provider, deciding how to earn their living), and I am continually amazed at the mental gymnastics many make to justify their attitudes and positions (this applies to all positions on the political/economic spectrum). Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that if an incentive system doesn't offer immediate gratification, it has little chance of success. Yes, there are always exceptions to the rule, and I've met many fine, principled and aware individuals who do the right thing, but they are unfortunately in the minority. It's not to say that the rest are "bad" people, but they are not convinced that the reduction or denial of their desires will bring about a better overall situation. So to answer your question, until it is in the immediate interest of most people to stop fouling the environment, taking the necessary steps (choices) to do it won't happen. Why should anyone give up their fun and enjoyment, when the whole mass culture is reinforcing the notion that "consumption" is good, and even necessary. Those who don't buy into this concept are abnormal, by definition. I'm OK with being different - it gives me the freedom to see things from a different reference frame. I noticed that you were admiring the system in Norway. I spend some time in Sweden and the culture there is tangibly different from North America. There is much more focus on "family" and "community", and by extension the environment. On the other hand, Sweden has been a relatively homogeneous society until recently, and the influx of immigrants with very different social values has created strains. A similar view is also apparently occuring in Holland, with people less willing to put up with the non-assimilation of immigrant populations. Ultimately, as a believer in democracy, we need to elect the right leaders, who can then start steering the ship of culture in a different direction. There is yet other aspect to consider. We talk as members of the western culture, but the majority of the world's population do not belong to this group. The effect of China, India, Russia, the countries of Africa and South America will have a tremendous impact on the well-being of the environment. It is true that the majority of energy consumption is by "western" nations, but the others are trying very hard to catch up, and even if we all stop doing bad stuff in North America, it may not be enough to save the planet. Again, it appears that technology will have to be the saviour, in providing cheap, non-polluting power to all. No, it doesn't exist yet, but when the pain becomes acute enough, necessity will provide incentive to invent. And if we fail, ... guess we weren't as smart as we thought we were. In that case, the world will have another example of an over-specialized species that couldn't cope with a changing environment. I better get out and enjoy the waters with my family. And while we're at it, pick up some garbage. "donquijote1954" wrote in message oups.com... PG wrote: The problem with most (political) revolutions is that they end up devouring those who start them. The chaos caused by the deliberate break-down of old rules is used by the opportunistic (and ruthless) to seize control of the movement and install their own power structure. Elimination of those with principles and morals usually quickly follows. These are the true predators. Not necessarily true. Remember, America is the fruit of one.... Well, maybe that's the wrong example. But how are you going to jump start the dinosaur into action? Who's going to stop the onslaught on the environment? As for the person who needs 260 HP to have fun, that's not a predator, that's a sheep with vision problems. The cure for that is in the works. With the price of a barrel of oil spiking towards $100 per barrel (not there yet, but soon), a lot of consumption-oriented expenditures become discretionary. I share a waterway with many boats and it brings a smile to my face when I think of how much someone is spending to propel themselves from point A to point B with no purpose other than to "have fun". Of course, there is always the idiot boater who is drunk and can't figure out where they are going or what they are prone to hit, but the same idiots are also driving their trucks and endangering other peoples' lives on land as well. Even in the kayaking world, we have the whole spectrum of those who are perfectly happy in a stubby plastic rec boat, and those who disdain anything that isn't kelvar/graphic fiber with a 30 lb. net weight. The latter group is just as consumeristic as the ones who drive SUV's or big boats. The same situation with cyclists - there are those who are happy with a single-speed upright and those who drill out their magnesium/titanium derailers. You can put a consumer mind into the most environmentally-friendly transport system, and they will still be consumers. Heh, but that's humanity for you. :-) The kibbutz solve that consumeristic drive the simple way: SHARING. In our case, it could be 5 kayaks for 150 people say. I'm I getting too political? Please see... Going back to the coops, here are some good reasons why many people would join them if given the choice... "Most people are living on Kibbutz Arava for two reasons: 1.) to be able to work for themselves [no politician, no bureaucrat, no boss, in other words, no lion], and 2.) to be able to raise their children in a safe and comfortable environment [in other words, no jungle]. In a world whose cities are increasingly becoming more polarized and violent, these basic wants/needs are synonymous with life on a kibbutz. Internally, Kibbutz Arava functions rather communally and ecologically. There is a central dining room and commons area. Food that is eaten in the dining room arrives as bulk, wholesale crates, thus eliminating retail wastes such as packaging and plastic wrappers. The kibbutz is a pedestrian community. People are able to walk and ride their bikes to any kibbutz activity. In fact, there are only five leisure cars available for the 130 adult members. On kibbutz, people don't throw much away. When things break, they are fixed either by the garage, carpentry shop, or laundry. Things are not easily thrown away, as items are scarce. There are public commodities, such as a coffee and tea lounge, a pool, an entertainment area, a computer and fax room, a music studio, and a horse stable. By offering these amenities, the kibbutz eliminates the need for everyone to have their own TV, computer, etc [no consumerism, which feeds the lion]." kibbutz... http://www.objectsspace.com/encyclop...ex.php/Kibbutz Behind Consumption and Consumerism... http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRel...onsumption.asp |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
"donquijote1954" wrote in message oups.com... PG wrote: Coming back to the original question, are conservatives those who want change (law of the jungle), or those who want to preserve stability (things were good back then...)? Conservatives are the dinosaur in the story. They are unmovable, lazy (they want no effort) and stupid. And I say stupid because in the end their size will be their doom. They can't have fun without 260hp... In that case, some of the most conservative people I know are liberals. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
PG wrote: While I think I understand your admiration of the kibbutz culture, it takes a stongly ideological person to participate and make it work. I knew one person who had been part of the kibbutz, and while one data point doesn't constitute proof of anything, he gave me the feeling that he would be a good communist if he was so inclined, as his ideological fervor was almost religious in intensity. By contrast, the majority of people I come across in the North American context seem very unwilling to share, and although most pride themselves on being "good people", there is very little enthusiasm for restricting their own freedom (to do, to consume, to enjoy the fruits of their labor) in support of the common good. Part of my work involves getting into peoples' heads to understand how and why they make various decisions (purchase of goods, selection of a service provider, deciding how to earn their living), and I am continually amazed at the mental gymnastics many make to justify their attitudes and positions (this applies to all positions on the political/economic spectrum). Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that if an incentive system doesn't offer immediate gratification, it has little chance of success. Yes, there are always exceptions to the rule, and I've met many fine, principled and aware individuals who do the right thing, but they are unfortunately in the minority. It's not to say that the rest are "bad" people, but they are not convinced that the reduction or denial of their desires will bring about a better overall situation. So to answer your question, until it is in the immediate interest of most people to stop fouling the environment, taking the necessary steps (choices) to do it won't happen. Why should anyone give up their fun and enjoyment, when the whole mass culture is reinforcing the notion that "consumption" is good, and even necessary. Those who don't buy into this concept are abnormal, by definition. I'm OK with being different - it gives me the freedom to see things from a different reference frame. I noticed that you were admiring the system in Norway. I spend some time in Sweden and the culture there is tangibly different from North America. There is much more focus on "family" and "community", and by extension the environment. On the other hand, Sweden has been a relatively homogeneous society until recently, and the influx of immigrants with very different social values has created strains. A similar view is also apparently occuring in Holland, with people less willing to put up with the non-assimilation of immigrant populations. Ultimately, as a believer in democracy, we need to elect the right leaders, who can then start steering the ship of culture in a different direction. There is yet other aspect to consider. We talk as members of the western culture, but the majority of the world's population do not belong to this group. The effect of China, India, Russia, the countries of Africa and South America will have a tremendous impact on the well-being of the environment. It is true that the majority of energy consumption is by "western" nations, but the others are trying very hard to catch up, and even if we all stop doing bad stuff in North America, it may not be enough to save the planet. Again, it appears that technology will have to be the saviour, in providing cheap, non-polluting power to all. No, it doesn't exist yet, but when the pain becomes acute enough, necessity will provide incentive to invent. And if we fail, ... guess we weren't as smart as we thought we were. In that case, the world will have another example of an over-specialized species that couldn't cope with a changing environment. I better get out and enjoy the waters with my family. And while we're at it, pick up some garbage. Good idea about the garbage, but more like likely than not it'll be TOO LITTLE TOO LATE. The HUNGRY SHARK forces people to become predators of their own--small ones, big ones--until they devour each other. I bet you SARDINES want to remain sardines if they had a chance of survival by cooperating. Both the forces COMPETITION AND COOPERATION ARE PRESENT IN NATURE (yes, even predators cooperate) but cooperation is conspicuously absent in a jungle called capitalism. Well, the results are also conspicuous... Kalifornia Kritter wrote: Hey, the House of Mouse has done pretty well for central Florida. You have paved roads and a lot of infrastructure built up in what was once a mosquito-infested swamp. I remember what it looked like 40 years ago. Wall to wall bugs... When I returned to Kalifornia from Florida, I had a palmetto bug hitchhiker hiding under the seat of my Jaguar. I kept killing palmetto bugs and thought I'd got the last one, but there was always one more... Just like your posts, Donkey. Always one more. If you answer, for Dulcinea's sake, let that post be the last one! Dear Gawd, please make Donkey stop!!!! Yeah, all your polluting California stupid sprawl (read "Fast Food Nation")brought to Florida is 5 hurricanes in a year. Florida had a nice train to Key West and it went the way the of the trolleys in LA. Watch "Roger Rabbit" if you don't believe me. |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Steve Shank wrote: "donquijote1954" wrote in message oups.com... PG wrote: Coming back to the original question, are conservatives those who want change (law of the jungle), or those who want to preserve stability (things were good back then...)? Conservatives are the dinosaur in the story. They are unmovable, lazy (they want no effort) and stupid. And I say stupid because in the end their size will be their doom. They can't have fun without 260hp... In that case, some of the most conservative people I know are liberals. Liberal is a label and may be used for camouflage purposes. That happens in the jungle (and the sea) quite a bit. Conservative shouldn't be a derogatory word, being opposed to evolution while being a pig should... |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Chuck Norris wrote:
I guess then forget it Jack, even though where I live, I see cyclist all the time. Why even bother, I will continue to ride, no matter what. I will eventually get hit by a car and get seriously hurt. It is funny that while the D.O.T. tries to make things safer for automobiles all the time, people such as yourself think that cyclist asking to not be killed in the roads is a special interest case, and not worthy of any tax dollars at all. Whatever, Jack, I'll just continue to ride my white ass to work each and everyday, just so I can smile and nod to the SUV driver as he sucks down the dino goo. Small Fish (such as sardines) do not figure in the plans of the Big Fish, as these includes plans for big appetites. Well, I hate to throw that example he Sardines find safety in numbers but cyclists are out there alone. |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Another way to look at it. That guy in the SUV is paying road use taxes
with every gallon of gasoline that he buys. The bicyclist isn't paying his way. donquijote1954 wrote: Chuck Norris wrote: I guess then forget it Jack, even though where I live, I see cyclist all the time. Why even bother, I will continue to ride, no matter what. I will eventually get hit by a car and get seriously hurt. It is funny that while the D.O.T. tries to make things safer for automobiles all the time, people such as yourself think that cyclist asking to not be killed in the roads is a special interest case, and not worthy of any tax dollars at all. Whatever, Jack, I'll just continue to ride my white ass to work each and everyday, just so I can smile and nod to the SUV driver as he sucks down the dino goo. Small Fish (such as sardines) do not figure in the plans of the Big Fish, as these includes plans for big appetites. Well, I hate to throw that example he Sardines find safety in numbers but cyclists are out there alone. |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Are there Conservative Kayakers? | General | |||
Are there Conservative Kayakers? | General | |||
OT Conservative pigs! What do you think NOW? | General |