On 13 Mar 2005 12:57:34 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:


(snipped)

The process I'd decided on involved opening the front passenger door
and placing a third pool noodle (with a longitudinal slice to the
mid-point) over/along the top of the door frame. The kayak was then
placed on the ground at an angle -- with a vertex just past the right
rear bumper and with the kayak veering just to the right of the open
passenger door. I then lifted the front end of the kayak onto the open
door. With the front end of the kayak secure (OK, it was wobbly) on top
of the front door frame, I then walked to the back of the kayak and
hoisted the back end onto the roof rack. Next, back to the front end,
and lifting the front off the door frame and onto the front of the roof
rack. Voila! Now it was just a matter of tying down the kayak. This
could easily be done by me (a little more height would have been
advantageous). A plastic dairy crate came in handy when tying the boat
to the car.

NOTE: I'M OPEN TO ALTERNATE, BETTER WAYS OF GETTING A 90+ POUND KAYAK
ONTO AN AEROSTAR VAN

Well, if you're willing to take the chance that you'll be driving home
without a door on the side of your van, I suppose your way is okay.
Careless though I am, I like to have my doors stay on the vehicle.

I have a friend with a Suvvie. He had the same problem. There's an
attachment that you can put on your rack that has a nice firm bar
sticking out from the side of the vehicle. You put one end of the
'yak on the bar and lift the other end onto the rack, then move the
first end over to the rack, remove the bar, and you're set. He loves
it. I don't know where he bought it, but I think he just went back to
where he got his rack. If it's expensive (I didn't ask him), you can
probably do something makeshift with a metal or pvc pipe.

Since I'm hard on things and don't care about scratches, I'd just put
one end leaning against the back of the vehicle and start lifting and
shoving the other end. Or get a rope up front and pull. Or any
combination of the above. I don't regard my vehicles (or my boats) as
being up there with the Mona Lisa. They get scratched, so what?

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 03:50:26 -0600, Cyli
wrote:

On 13 Mar 2005 12:57:34 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:

The process I'd decided on involved opening the front passenger door
and placing a third pool noodle (with a longitudinal slice to the
mid-point) over/along the top of the door frame. The kayak was then
placed on the ground at an angle -- with a vertex just past the right
rear bumper and with the kayak veering just to the right of the open
passenger door. I then lifted the front end of the kayak onto the open
door. With the front end of the kayak secure (OK, it was wobbly) on top

NOTE: I'M OPEN TO ALTERNATE, BETTER WAYS OF GETTING A 90+ POUND KAYAK
ONTO AN AEROSTAR VAN

Well, if you're willing to take the chance that you'll be driving home
without a door on the side of your van, I suppose your way is okay.
Careless though I am, I like to have my doors stay on the vehicle.

I have a friend with a Suvvie. He had the same problem. There's an
attachment that you can put on your rack that has a nice firm bar
sticking out from the side of the vehicle. You put one end of the
'yak on the bar and lift the other end onto the rack, then move the
first end over to the rack, remove the bar, and you're set. He loves
it. I don't know where he bought it, but I think he just went back to
where he got his rack. If it's expensive (I didn't ask him), you can
probably do something makeshift with a metal or pvc pipe.

I think it is Thule which has an extension bar that fits inside the
regular crossbar. 547 - Outrigger Lift Assist.

This is used as you describe, by pulling it out, resting one end of
the boat on it, then lifing the other end onto the other crossbar,
then sliding the first end onto the crossbar.

This puts weight only on the rack, and no contact with the vehicle.

They are soon adding a device which will lift the boat onto the roof,
once you place it at waist level.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Cyli says:
=============
Well, if you're willing to take the chance that you'll be driving home
without a door on the side of your van, I suppose your way is okay.
Careless though I am, I like to have my doors stay on the vehicle.
================

Hmmmm... now you've got me worried. Just to check, do you have
expertise re van doors? I don't, hence my worry. I wouldn't have
thought that approx 50 pounds at the mid-point of the door frame would
be too much for the door-to-frame connection to withstand. However, I
haven't a clue. Does anyone else out there have any opinions?

Cheers,
Wilf

On 14 Mar 2005 19:02:10 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:

Cyli says:
=============
Well, if you're willing to take the chance that you'll be driving home
without a door on the side of your van, I suppose your way is okay.
Careless though I am, I like to have my doors stay on the vehicle.
================

Hmmmm... now you've got me worried. Just to check, do you have
expertise re van doors? I don't, hence my worry. I wouldn't have
thought that approx 50 pounds at the mid-point of the door frame would
be too much for the door-to-frame connection to withstand. However, I
haven't a clue. Does anyone else out there have any opinions?

Vehicle doors derive a fair amount of their strength from being
attached to the frame. I would not assume that a weight will not
bother them.

You also need to consider worst case, such as the weight resting on
the outer end of the door (more leverage) as well as a heavier boat,
as well as an impact which multiplies the force of the same item
resting at that point.

Anyone who has seen the Jaws of Life in action would not consider
vehicle doors as being strong.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

On 14 Mar 2005 19:02:10 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:

(snipped)

Hmmmm... now you've got me worried. Just to check, do you have
expertise re van doors? I don't, hence my worry. I wouldn't have
thought that approx 50 pounds at the mid-point of the door frame would
be too much for the door-to-frame connection to withstand. However, I
haven't a clue. Does anyone else out there have any opinions?

Cheers,
Wilf

Only a few damaged car doors. Not by boats, but by kids. The doors
did stay on as long as they were kept locked closed and tied to the
frames if necessary, but that mean exiting through the car window,
which could be undignified, especially in a skirt or dress.

Look at what holds your doors on. In a car it's two hinges. Stress
compounded with leverage is probably not a good thing for hinges. Look
at how many square inches of hinge there are. Look at the door.

You may decide to just lean it against the top and lever it that way
until you cobble up or buy a rack extender. Paint scrapes just need
some repair (or, in my case, some ignoring), but a damaged door is
more expensive in time and money and safety.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

Cyli says:
================
Look at what holds your doors on. In a car it's two hinges. Stress
compounded with leverage is probably not a good thing for hinges. Look
at how many square inches of hinge there are. Look at the door.

You may decide to just lean it against the top and lever it that way
until you cobble up or buy a rack extender. Paint scrapes just need
some repair (or, in my case, some ignoring), but a damaged door is
more expensive in time and money and safety.
=====================

I take your point.

Last yesterday PM I was already at a hardware scouting out the
materials to cobble together a rack extender. My initial thoughts are
electrical conduit -- 2 different diameters. I would clamp (using
something like hose clamps) the larger diameter conduit to the front
roof rack crossbeam. Then, the other piece of conduit would slide in
and out as needed; held in place (either in or out) by a cotter pin or
some such gismo.

My only concerns a will I have enough of the smaller diameter
conduit extended to hold the kayak (approx 24" - but I'll need some
slack as the back of the kayak is pulled around, so let's say 28"). OR
If too much of the smaller conduit is extended, will I still have (a)
"stability" due to the "play" between the two pieces of conduit and (b)
since I'm no electrician, at what point (weight of kayak) can I expect
the conduit to bend?

Any thoughts? Improvements? Recommendations?

Cheers,
Wilf

BCITORGB wrote:
Cyli says:
================
Look at what holds your doors on. In a car it's two hinges. Stress
compounded with leverage is probably not a good thing for hinges.
Look
at how many square inches of hinge there are. Look at the door.

You may decide to just lean it against the top and lever it that way
until you cobble up or buy a rack extender. Paint scrapes just need
some repair (or, in my case, some ignoring), but a damaged door is
more expensive in time and money and safety.
=====================

I take your point.

Last yesterday PM I was already at a hardware scouting out the
materials to cobble together a rack extender. My initial thoughts are
electrical conduit -- 2 different diameters. I would clamp (using
something like hose clamps) the larger diameter conduit to the front
roof rack crossbeam. Then, the other piece of conduit would slide in
and out as needed; held in place (either in or out) by a cotter pin
or
some such gismo.

My only concerns a will I have enough of the smaller diameter
conduit extended to hold the kayak (approx 24" - but I'll need some
slack as the back of the kayak is pulled around, so let's say 28").
OR
If too much of the smaller conduit is extended, will I still have (a)
"stability" due to the "play" between the two pieces of conduit and
(b)
since I'm no electrician, at what point (weight of kayak) can I
expect
the conduit to bend?

Any thoughts? Improvements? Recommendations?

Cheers,
Wilf

Hey Wilf, You never said that I can find, what sort of roof rack do you
have? Is it a Commercial unit? If so, most of them have some sort of
extender system already made. No point in reinventing the wheel.

The problem with electrical conduit is two fold. First it is steel and
would begin to get nasty fast when exposed to salt water. Secondly, it
is designed to bend, which is great in some projects, but you would not
want it to decide to bend when you have the kayak on it and lifting
other end. It would result in a loud crash, and possibly a broken boat
or twisted back as you try to keep the loud crash from happening. Any
of these scenarios being bad.

I think you will also find that the commercial extender systems do not
extend as far as you are thinking like up to 28". So, though they use
extruded, hardened Aluminum, which is amazingly strong, they only go
out like maybe 15". Go out any further, and they don't bend, they break
right of, and you end up with a similar scenario as above.

So it may be time to go back to the drawing board! You might think in
terms of Titanium, and then you begin talking real money, though with
the aircraft industry up there, you may have a cheaper source!

What you need is a material that can take the extended end loading, you
might think of a fiber glass or Kevlar pole, which could be extended
out beyond the side of vehicle, and supported in the middle folcrum on
the roof gutter independent from the existing rack. This pole could
extend across the top of the vehicle and be attached for loading to the
other end of the rack. Think in terms of a teeter-totter, with one end
held down, and the other end sticking out beyond the side of your car.
The right material can carry a significant load.

The right material could even be just a clear of knots, straight
grained piece of Douglas Fir. A hand selected 2x4, from the local
lumber yard. Trees are subject to end loading by the wind, and are
incredibly strong.

When you are done loading your boat, the system will not fold up all
nice on top like a commercial unit would, but you could pull it and
place inside vehicle, or lash along side the kayak on top.

Now your car begins to look like a kayakers car should look. Check out
the pictures on Wilko's website, and you will get a better idea of
where this is headed. :-)

My only other suggestion also, is that when you lift the front end up
on the extension, that you tie a loop of rope around it to act as a
safety to keep it from slipping off the extension as you lift the back
end. this would be especially important if it is windy, or you are
parked on a slope, which could result in the front end sliding off or
deciding to take a lesson in "flying like a kite!" and you are holding
on to the little end of the kite.

I am sort of like a bull, when it comes to loading stuff as you know
(:-), and I just lift my 70 lb boat onto the top of my Caravan. One
time the wind caught the boat as I had it overhead and did a windvane
number on my back. I am re-thinking my loading procedure even as I
write this all to you. It is amazing how you get smarter each time you
try to break something. TnT

Cyli wrote:

On 14 Mar 2005 19:02:10 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:

(snipped)

Hmmmm... now you've got me worried. Just to check, do you have
expertise re van doors? I don't, hence my worry. I wouldn't have
thought that approx 50 pounds at the mid-point of the door frame would
be too much for the door-to-frame connection to withstand. However, I
haven't a clue. Does anyone else out there have any opinions?

Cheers,
Wilf


Only a few damaged car doors. Not by boats, but by kids. The doors
did stay on as long as they were kept locked closed and tied to the
frames if necessary, but that mean exiting through the car window,
which could be undignified, especially in a skirt or dress.

To what kind of forces were these doors subjected?
I know that all the doors on our cars can easily take my full 170 lbs at
the very end of the door frame without any damage to the hinges or parts
and would be totally unconcerned about putting the bow of my double on
top of the door temporarily for loading. My roof rack bars extend out a
few inches so I use that extra space for holding the bow while I walk
back to the stern and pivot it up, but the door frame would seem to work
ok as well if protected from scratches by a towel

Look at what holds your doors on. In a car it's two hinges. Stress
compounded with leverage is probably not a good thing for hinges. Look
at how many square inches of hinge there are. Look at the door.

Yup, those are the things I looked at before putting my weight on the
door. The hinges and attachment points looked like they were made to
handle some serious torque.

"Peter" wrote in message
...

Snip

Yup, those are the things I looked at before putting my weight on the
door. The hinges and attachment points looked like they were made to
handle some serious torque.


Depends on the car. My 21 year old diesel Mercedes - yep! My friend's old
Nissan - Nope! I tore a door just like his off at the scene of an accident
to clear the way to remove the driver (no tools - just pulled up really hard
and then down and a kick or 2. It tore the sheet metal of the door. The
hinge was intact but unattached). You did make me go look at the wife's Jeep
Grand Cherokee. I think I would set a boat on that door, seems plenty strong
enough to hold 40-80 lbs extra.


Ken

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hey Wilf, You never said that I can find, what sort of roof rack do you
have? Is it a Commercial unit? If so, most of them have some sort of
extender system already made. No point in reinventing the wheel.

The problem with electrical conduit is two fold. First it is steel and
would begin to get nasty fast when exposed to salt water. Secondly, it
is designed to bend, which is great in some projects, but you would not
want it to decide to bend when you have the kayak on it and lifting
other end. It would result in a loud crash, and possibly a broken boat
or twisted back as you try to keep the loud crash from happening. Any
of these scenarios being bad.

I think you will also find that the commercial extender systems do not
extend as far as you are thinking like up to 28". So, though they use
extruded, hardened Aluminum, which is amazingly strong, they only go
out like maybe 15". Go out any further, and they don't bend, they break
right of, and you end up with a similar scenario as above.

So it may be time to go back to the drawing board! You might think in
terms of Titanium, and then you begin talking real money, though with
the aircraft industry up there, you may have a cheaper source!

What you need is a material that can take the extended end loading, you
might think of a fiber glass or Kevlar pole, which could be extended
out beyond the side of vehicle, and supported in the middle folcrum on
the roof gutter independent from the existing rack. This pole could
extend across the top of the vehicle and be attached for loading to the
other end of the rack. Think in terms of a teeter-totter, with one end
held down, and the other end sticking out beyond the side of your car.
The right material can carry a significant load.

The right material could even be just a clear of knots, straight
grained piece of Douglas Fir. A hand selected 2x4, from the local
lumber yard. Trees are subject to end loading by the wind, and are
incredibly strong.

When you are done loading your boat, the system will not fold up all
nice on top like a commercial unit would, but you could pull it and
place inside vehicle, or lash along side the kayak on top.

Now your car begins to look like a kayakers car should look. Check out
the pictures on Wilko's website, and you will get a better idea of
where this is headed. :-)

My only other suggestion also, is that when you lift the front end up
on the extension, that you tie a loop of rope around it to act as a
safety to keep it from slipping off the extension as you lift the back
end. this would be especially important if it is windy, or you are
parked on a slope, which could result in the front end sliding off or
deciding to take a lesson in "flying like a kite!" and you are holding
on to the little end of the kite.

I am sort of like a bull, when it comes to loading stuff as you know
(:-), and I just lift my 70 lb boat onto the top of my Caravan. One
time the wind caught the boat as I had it overhead and did a windvane
number on my back. I am re-thinking my loading procedure even as I
write this all to you. It is amazing how you get smarter each time you
try to break something. TnT


How about seeing if you can get a section of Schedule 40 pipe about 3ft long
by 1 1/2 to 2 inches and attach it to the rack (no rust). Then get a good
length of hardwood dowel that fits inside. It could be very loose fitting if
you have 3 ft of it inside the pipe. I'm thinking 1 1/2 inch OD pipe should
work great with a 1 inch or 1 1/4 inch dowel - like you buy to hang the
cloths up in your closet. Toss the dowel inside the car when done (if the
paddles fit, so will it). A dowel this size with 3 ft of support should hold
for most boats. I would think it would hold 100 lbs distributed across the 2
ft or so you have sticking out. -- Stress test away from the car - I don't
want to get blamed for a paint job after it breaks ;

The beauty of using wood is you should hear it start to fail before it lets
go. Unlike the conduit which may just fold-up without a sound.

Ken