"Michael Daly" wrote in
:

On 1-Apr-2004, (Gene Cosloy) wrote:

I'm
looking for a good tracker which, with minimum knee hanging effort
will get up on it's side and turn quickly. At the same time it
shoudn't be overly twitchy and have great secondary stability.
Moderate cockpit for a 5'10" 175 lb paddler and 16' with a skeg.

Is there a reason you are limiting it to 16'?

Ignoring the length limit, there are many in this category - Boreal
Designs Ellesmere, NDK Romany and Explorer, VCP Pintail and Anas
Acuta, Necky Chatham, WS Tempest, Nigel Foster's designs...

Good list but you forgot to mention tne VCP boat that *is* 16'; the Avocet.
It's also worth mentioning that the two Nigel Foster models that are 16'
(Rumour and Echo) *are* quite twitchy.

Doesn't the Eddyline Nighthawk come equipped with a skeg? That might be a
good addition to the list. I'd also add the P&H Capella and Vela (which is
actually less than 16' long). If you're going to include 18' long boats on
the list you might as well add the Current Designs Caribou.

Find a good dealer and try them out. A kayak symposium is also a
good way to check out and compare a lot of kayaks.

Mike

I notice that no one mentions Wilderness Systems. Any reason?

"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
"Michael Daly" wrote in
:

On 1-Apr-2004, (Gene Cosloy) wrote:

I'm
looking for a good tracker which, with minimum knee hanging effort
will get up on it's side and turn quickly. At the same time it
shoudn't be overly twitchy and have great secondary stability.
Moderate cockpit for a 5'10" 175 lb paddler and 16' with a skeg.

Is there a reason you are limiting it to 16'?

Ignoring the length limit, there are many in this category - Boreal
Designs Ellesmere, NDK Romany and Explorer, VCP Pintail and Anas
Acuta, Necky Chatham, WS Tempest, Nigel Foster's designs...

Good list but you forgot to mention tne VCP boat that *is* 16'; the
Avocet.
It's also worth mentioning that the two Nigel Foster models that are 16'
(Rumour and Echo) *are* quite twitchy.

Doesn't the Eddyline Nighthawk come equipped with a skeg? That might be a
good addition to the list. I'd also add the P&H Capella and Vela (which
is
actually less than 16' long). If you're going to include 18' long boats
on
the list you might as well add the Current Designs Caribou.

Find a good dealer and try them out. A kayak symposium is also a
good way to check out and compare a lot of kayaks.

Mike

John Fereira wrote in message ...
"Michael Daly" wrote in
:

On 1-Apr-2004, (Gene Cosloy) wrote:

I'm
looking for a good tracker which, with minimum knee hanging effort
will get up on it's side and turn quickly. At the same time it
shoudn't be overly twitchy and have great secondary stability.
Moderate cockpit for a 5'10" 175 lb paddler and 16' with a skeg.

Is there a reason you are limiting it to 16'?

Ignoring the length limit, there are many in this category - Boreal
Designs Ellesmere, NDK Romany and Explorer, VCP Pintail and Anas
Acuta, Necky Chatham, WS Tempest, Nigel Foster's designs...

Actually I have a good dealer in my area where I intend to try out: WS
Tempest, NF Legend, and CD Caribou and Gulfstream. The new Necky
Chatham won't be available until May. All they have is plastic which
I'm told does not perform the same as the composite version. Will
report back next week.

Gene

Good list but you forgot to mention tne VCP boat that *is* 16'; the Avocet.
It's also worth mentioning that the two Nigel Foster models that are 16'
(Rumour and Echo) *are* quite twitchy.

Doesn't the Eddyline Nighthawk come equipped with a skeg? That might be a
good addition to the list. I'd also add the P&H Capella and Vela (which is
actually less than 16' long). If you're going to include 18' long boats on
the list you might as well add the Current Designs Caribou.

Find a good dealer and try them out. A kayak symposium is also a
good way to check out and compare a lot of kayaks.

Mike

(Gene Cosloy) wrote in message . com...
John Fereira wrote in message ...
"Michael Daly" wrote in
:

On 1-Apr-2004, (Gene Cosloy) wrote:

I'm
looking for a good tracker which, with minimum knee hanging effort
will get up on it's side and turn quickly. At the same time it
shoudn't be overly twitchy and have great secondary stability.
Moderate cockpit for a 5'10" 175 lb paddler and 16' with a skeg.

Is there a reason you are limiting it to 16'?

Ignoring the length limit, there are many in this category - Boreal
Designs Ellesmere, NDK Romany and Explorer, VCP Pintail and Anas
Acuta, Necky Chatham, WS Tempest, Nigel Foster's designs...

Actually I have a good dealer in my area where I intend to try out: WS
Tempest, NF Legend, and CD Caribou and Gulfstream. The new Necky
Chatham won't be available until May. All they have is plastic which
I'm told does not perform the same as the composite version. Will
report back next week.

Gene
Tried out a number of boats, with interesting results: Here goes:
First I rejected a number of boats out of hand because I wasn't
comfortable with the cockpit. These boats were only sat in and not
demoed: Lincoln Isle au Haut and Eggmoggin both felt that the thigh
braces were pushing my legs down straighter than I would be
comfortable with over a long period of time. It's a shame because
these are both the lightest boats in Kevlar that I encountered. I
rejected the VCP Acuanaut/Argonaut for a similar reason although the
length and width of the cockpits were fine. A boat whose cockpit I did
not like but actually demoed anyway was the WS Tempest Pro. I liked
the way the boat handled in the water but felt both the Hip and thigh
braces constricting. ( I'm going back next week to try again with the
hip braces and thigh supports removed.) I'ts obvious to me that I like
a long or keyhole type of cockpit with a moderately high deck so that
my legs can have a decent amount of bend in them.) Now to boats that
actually got wet and one that got me wet! CD Caribou S in glass: Wow
terrific hull speed, great initial stability even when tipping back
and forth on the primary chines. Great tracker and moderately
manuverable given that I wasn't willing to edge the boat more than
the first chine. Plus IMHO the most beautiful boat to look at! Cockpit
length/width perfect although the position of the thigh braces place
your legs closer in toward the center of the boat than I'm used to but
I found it comfortable. Not a lot of room to move around and change
position though. Question whether this would be a problem on long
trips? Next the CD Gulfstream. Wow whats not to like: tracks great,
very stable but easy to go on edge and turn. Boat was too wide for me.
Would need to pack out the cockpit too get a close in feel. If this
boat had a 22" beam and behaved the same as the Gulfstream I would be
very happy. P&H Cappella, no bad habits, nice predictable boat, very
roomy cockpit for it's size. Why doesn't this boat turn me on? Impex
Susquehanna: not sufficient stability for this novice when edging.
Transition from primary to secondary comes without warning. Nigel
Forster Legend: too tippy on flat water for me. NF Shadow got rid of
the tippy feel. But no cigar. All of these boats were demoed on flat
water with minimum wind. Next I traveled to R.I. and tried a couple of
boats in Wickford Harbor which had some chop and definite wind and
gusts up to 15 to 20 mi/hr. I got into a VCP Nordkapp and 2 feet from
shore attempting to check out it's feel wiggled my hips left toward
the shore and found it very responsive and then wiggled to the right
toward the open water and found myself up on edge the combing in the
water and without a spray skirt taking in water and then the next
thing I knew I was swimming. Stupidly I didn't even have my paddle set
for a brace on that side. Oh well I got into dry clothes and took out
a ND Romany Explorer. All I could tell was I liked it, into the wind
or with the wind behind me, turning, didn't seem to weather cock at
all, good hull speed, but since I was so spooked by my earlier
unscheduled swim I didn't dare try to edge and found turning to be
somewhat slow given my anxious state. Big shame because this could be
the one. This or the 16' Romany which I wasn't able to demo or even
see. So where I sit now it's either the Caribou S, a smaller
Gulfstream if that exists and the ND Romany/Explorer which needs
another trial when I'm less nervous or willing to don a drysuit. Any
more comments are welcome. Someone suggested the Impex Curituck but I
can't find one to demo.

Gene

Good list but you forgot to mention tne VCP boat that *is* 16'; the Avocet.
It's also worth mentioning that the two Nigel Foster models that are 16'
(Rumour and Echo) *are* quite twitchy.

Doesn't the Eddyline Nighthawk come equipped with a skeg? That might be a
good addition to the list. I'd also add the P&H Capella and Vela (which is
actually less than 16' long). If you're going to include 18' long boats on
the list you might as well add the Current Designs Caribou.

Find a good dealer and try them out. A kayak symposium is also a
good way to check out and compare a lot of kayaks.

Mike

On 14-Apr-2004, (Gene Cosloy) wrote:

First I rejected a number of boats out of hand because I wasn't
comfortable with the cockpit. These boats were only sat in and not
demoed: Lincoln Isle au Haut and Eggmoggin both felt that the thigh
braces were pushing my legs down straighter than I would be
comfortable with over a long period of time.

Demo the kayaks and rent them for a weekend before making this decision.
(actually, rent before you buy _any_ kayak and make sure you test it
in realistic conditions - wind, waves, etc - before buying).

It may be that you'll find them comfortable. The seat is critical in
this case - if the seat provides good support, you'll be comfortable
regardless of leg position.

Only if you are sitting with the legs so straight that you are paddling
with tight hamstrings and such will the kayak always be uncomfortable.
In such a situation, stretching can help, but it shouldn't be that
tight.

A boat whose cockpit I did
not like but actually demoed anyway was the WS Tempest Pro. I liked
the way the boat handled in the water but felt both the Hip and thigh
braces constricting. ( I'm going back next week to try again with the
hip braces and thigh supports removed.)

This tells me that there's something wrong with your trials! This kayak
has one of the best cockpits out there. The seat is fully adjustable,
as are the thigh hooks. Try again, but get the dealer to set it up
for you. I would never consider a kayak without good thigh/knee braces
as removing them means losing some of your control on the kayak.

I'ts obvious to me that I like
a long or keyhole type of cockpit with a moderately high deck so that
my legs can have a decent amount of bend in them.)

I'll just point out that advanced paddlers tend to move in exactly the
opposite direction - to smaller cockpits with lower decks to get better
control. Again - it's the seat that makes the difference, not the
leg bend. A proper seat is more important than anything else.

Now to boats that
actually got wet and one that got me wet! CD Caribou S in glass: Wow
terrific hull speed, great initial stability even when tipping back
and forth on the primary chines. Great tracker and moderately
manuverable given that I wasn't willing to edge the boat more than
the first chine.

I know more than a few folks that consider this kayak a mediocre boat.
It does everything well, but nothing excellent. Nonetheless, those
who like it tend to love it.

Next the CD Gulfstream. Wow whats not to like: tracks great,
very stable but easy to go on edge and turn. Boat was too wide for me.
Would need to pack out the cockpit too get a close in feel.

Never dismiss a kayak because of the seat being too wide as it's easy
to add good padding. That padding can be shaped to provide even better
control than the basic seat provides.

Impex
Susquehanna:

Before you get excited about Impex and a few other similar kayaks,
push on the hull with your finger and compare that to other kayaks.
These are lightly built kayaks and that's why the price is lower.

a ND Romany Explorer. All I could tell was I liked it, into the wind
or with the wind behind me, turning, didn't seem to weather cock at
all, good hull speed,

The Explorer is everything _except_ a fast kayak. One of the best all-
round kayaks out there. Check out the Boreal Designs Ellemere as well
if you like the Explorer.

So where I sit now it's either the Caribou S, a smaller
Gulfstream if that exists

Slipstream - but that may be tippy for someone your size. There's also
an Andromeda, but I found that to be a dreadful kayak.

Try the Skerray - I find it roughly similar to a Gulfstream based on a
short paddle. John F. will no doubt be able to point out the differences
much better than I. However, I think the Skerray is worth checking out
if you like the Gulfstream.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in
:


The Explorer is everything _except_ a fast kayak. One of the best all-
round kayaks out there. Check out the Boreal Designs Ellemere as well
if you like the Explorer.

I've heard many compare the Ellsemere to the Caribou too. It has an
aggressively molded seat so if it fits the shape of your butt it's going to
be real comfortable.

So where I sit now it's either the Caribou S, a smaller
Gulfstream if that exists

Slipstream - but that may be tippy for someone your size. There's also
an Andromeda, but I found that to be a dreadful kayak.

At a symposium last year a few people were talking about the Andromeda and
someone said that even Current Designs admits the Andromeda was a mistake.

Try the Skerray - I find it roughly similar to a Gulfstream based on a
short paddle. John F. will no doubt be able to point out the differences
much better than I. However, I think the Skerray is worth checking out
if you like the Gulfstream.

Doh! Why didn't I think of the Skerray? Perhaps because mine has a Ocean
cockpit that I knew he wouldn't like. The Skerray likely would be a good
one to try. It's got real nice initial stability, is very responsive but a
bit faster than a Romany or Avocet. I've had mine for 6 years or so and
have since built two higher performance boats. Every once in awhile I think
about selling the Skerray but then I get in an paddle it and get reminded
how much fun that boat is to paddle.

Hey

John Fereira wrote:
At a symposium last year a few people were talking about the Andromeda and
someone said that even Current Designs admits the Andromeda was a mistake.

I'm curious. Could you give us some details on the problems with the
Andromeda? I've noticed that the boat has an exceptional large amount
of rocker. Perhaps that's what Hutchinson considers a romantic boat.

Paddler - Jan/Feb 2002:

Paddler: What's the best new technological innovation in the sport?

Hutchinson: There haven't really been any in the last ten years. It's
a shame about boat designs, though. A lot of the new boats are
functional - they'll all float - but they look like a bucket of
squashed frogs. It seems the designers have no romance in their soul
at all.

--
Peter Unold- http://www.unold.dk/paddling

John Fereira wrote in message ...
"Michael Daly" wrote in
:


The Explorer is everything _except_ a fast kayak. One of the best all-
round kayaks out there. Check out the Boreal Designs Ellemere as well
if you like the Explorer.

I've heard many compare the Ellsemere to the Caribou too. It has an
aggressively molded seat so if it fits the shape of your butt it's going to
be real comfortable.
I found a dealer in Plymouth, MA who has Ellsemere and Surge Marine.
His demo spot is on a large inland lake. Patriots's Day in MA there
were up to 40 mi/hr gusts and strong chop on the lake. I asked the
dealer which boat was more stable and when he replied Surge decided to
demo it even though I had come down for the Ellesmere. The dock and
lake were roiling and I had not a little fear in my heart when I
pulled away. The Surge knifed through the chop nicely and didn't seem
to mind the wind. I wasn't brave enough to try edging under the
conditions and after less than 15 backed it into the dock and was
happy to be off the water. While I announced to my host that I didn't
think I was up for any more demoing today he suggested I at least sit
in the Ellesmere. That was enough for me, unless I was interested in
strong prostate stimulation along with my paddling, I did not like
that seat with the raised prostate bumb in the middle. What were those
Quebec folks thinking? Speaking of seats, the next day I spent an hour
in a WS Tempest 170 pro. More tractable conditions up to 20 Mi /hr
gusts and some current on the Charles river. I found the seat and
outfitting to be most impressive and comfortable. the boat however was
more affected by wind than I would have liked and I found myself
employing the skeg a lot going downwind and even needed it going
upwind occassionally. Stability seemed excellent . Well I won't buy a
boat just because I like the seat, but I won't buy a boat either which
has a seat I hate. I'm thinking now that maybe I'd be better off
spending all this time demoing other boats on paddling my own boat and
trying to improve my skills. After all how can you appreciate what a
performance boat has to offer if you're not willing to push it. thanks
to all who have responded. I value your opinions.----Cheers Gene
So where I sit now it's either the Caribou S, a smaller
Gulfstream if that exists

Slipstream - but that may be tippy for someone your size. There's also
an Andromeda, but I found that to be a dreadful kayak.

At a symposium last year a few people were talking about the Andromeda and
someone said that even Current Designs admits the Andromeda was a mistake.

Try the Skerray - I find it roughly similar to a Gulfstream based on a
short paddle. John F. will no doubt be able to point out the differences
much better than I. However, I think the Skerray is worth checking out
if you like the Gulfstream.

Doh! Why didn't I think of the Skerray? Perhaps because mine has a Ocean
cockpit that I knew he wouldn't like. The Skerray likely would be a good
one to try. It's got real nice initial stability, is very responsive but a
bit faster than a Romany or Avocet. I've had mine for 6 years or so and
have since built two higher performance boats. Every once in awhile I think
about selling the Skerray but then I get in an paddle it and get reminded
how much fun that boat is to paddle.

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...
On 14-Apr-2004, (Gene Cosloy) wrote:


Impex
Susquehanna:

Before you get excited about Impex and a few other similar kayaks,
push on the hull with your finger and compare that to other kayaks.
These are lightly built kayaks and that's why the price is lower.



Hi Michael,

I'm curious about Impex kayaks. The Currituck and Assatigue are on my list
of boats to demo (I'm kind of on the fence between these two size-wise). It
would be a days drive to get to a dealer that has demos of these kayaks as
well as others I'm interested in. I have heard good feedback from Impex
owners and others that have tried them out. Have you heard or seen first
hand any failures of the deck layups by this manufacturer? I tend to follow
the old adage "if it doesn't bend a little, it will probably break". What
about the hulls? What's your impression of the layup there? Looking at the
prices on some dealer web sites, the Currituck is $2550 in glass. The
Caribou, Gulfstream, and Slipstream are $2595, The endeavor $2830 and the
Arctic Hawk is just $2200. That doesn't appear to me that the Impex model
is lower in price to the point that it would suggest that they are skimping
on material.

Many of the kayaks I'm interested in are right here in town but the Impex,
which look good in print are far away. I value your opinion so please let
me know if you have seen actual problems with these boats delaminating or
cracking. I'd like to save myself a dissapointing road trip if possible.

Thanks a bunch.

Dave

On 15-Apr-2004, "Dave Van" wrote:

I'm curious about Impex kayaks. The Currituck and Assatigue are on my list
of boats to demo (I'm kind of on the fence between these two size-wise). It
would be a days drive to get to a dealer that has demos of these kayaks as
well as others I'm interested in. I have heard good feedback from Impex
owners and others that have tried them out.

So have I - they're quite popular around here.

Have you heard or seen first
hand any failures of the deck layups by this manufacturer? I tend to follow
the old adage "if it doesn't bend a little, it will probably break". What
about the hulls? What's your impression of the layup there?

No specific examples of damage, but even one of the dealers here has said
they are lightly built and "you get what you pay for". They don't bend a
little, they bend a lot and that's both deck and hull. I just don't trust
them - I'd rather buy a more robust kayak. YMMV

prices on some dealer web sites, the Currituck is $2550 in glass. The
Caribou, Gulfstream, and Slipstream are $2595, The endeavor $2830 and the
Arctic Hawk is just $2200. That doesn't appear to me that the Impex model
is lower in price to the point that it would suggest that they are skimping
on material.

Compare to Canadian prices:
C$ US$
Serenity Sport $2700 $2400 (can't find the Currituck price in Canada)
Caribou S $3450 $2600
Gulfstream $3400 $2600
Slipstream $3400 $2600
Endeavour $3600 $2800
Arctic Hawk $?? $2200

Big difference here. I find it interesting to compare US and Cdn pricing
on kayaks, since US kayakers were getting ripped off on some models.
This was especially true when the US dollar was very high in value.

So here, the Impex models (sold under the Formula name) are much cheaper
than the big boys and the difference shows. NOTE: it is possible that
the US models are better built by Impex than the Formula models made
here. I'll leave that to you to verify.


Mike