The parawings seem great. They are pretty expensive though.


Mike McCrea wrote:
I'd suggest a coated-nylon parawing. For just the two of you a 12x12
parawing would provide plenty of room for two bodies, some gear and
even a kitchen area.

Tarps are great of course for rainy days, but also for use as a
sunshade, and wings are more stable in the wind and drain water more
efficiently that a flat tarp. A 12x12 coated nylon tarp packs down to
the size of a small football and can be set up effectively with only 2
"poles" (staking the two unpoled corners to the ground with a short
piece of line).

For kayak camping you can devise a way to use your paddles as poles
for the two high corners (or better yet your spare paddles, which will
allow you to leave the tarp set up while you day paddle and explore
away from camp).


wpatrick wrote in message ...

My wife and I are going to start camping from our kayaks. We have not bought
camping gear in years and are looking for recommendations on makes, models,
vendors... Keep in mind that I am 6'4" tall with size 14 shoes... I need a
bit more room than most folks.

We are especially interested in sleeping bags... Make/model... Temp range

Tents ... 4 person .... 3 season

Stoves

Lanterns

Sleeping mats, cots, inflatable mattresses

Anything else you can think of!

I another thread,
"Mike McCrea" wrote in message
om...
I'd suggest a coated-nylon parawing. For just the two of you a 12x12
parawing would provide plenty of room for two bodies, some gear and
even a kitchen area...

A lot of years ago, a friend and I invented parawings, we doped out the
math, and we cobbled up a few with hand awls and duct tape. They worked as
intended. Beautifully.

Very shortly after that, the commercial versions started appearing, and I
eagerly bought successive versions, hoping for one that worked as well as
the prototypes but was lighter, more durable, and didn't look like it had
been stolen from a migrant camp.

Not to be, alas. Even though some come with grand sales fluff that talked
about 'hyperbolic paraboloids" and 'catenaries,' suggesting that the
designers really understand the stuff, the nylon itself reveals no real
grasp of the principles. Not the ones I've bought and tried to use anyway.

The functional requirements are pretty simple: produce a more or less
rectangular membrane that is taut everywhere when you pull the four corners,
one diagonal high and the other low.

The nylon topology you need to meet these requirements is pretty
straightforward: 1.) to get the membrane in tension at the edges, you have
to cut them in a curve that looks something like a catenary (the shape of
the main cables in a suspension bridge) and embed some kind of a tension
member in them, and 2.) tuck the membrane to produce the saddle shape (this
is where the 'hyperbolic paraboloid' comes in). In practice, whether you're
sewing nylon or ducttaping poly sheet, 2.) is accomplished by cutting strips
or patches in a shape that falls out of the topology, and joining them
together.

AFAICFigure it, no commercial wing gets 2.) right. If you do get it right,
the thing won't lie flat on the ground, and it's troublesome to fold, but
once it's up, it's a marvel of set-it-and-forget-it comfort even in some
pretty terrible conditions.

There. I feel better now.

Fred Klingener

and embed some kind of a tension
member in them,

See..thats the whole problem..I just want something that doesnt require
any poles because I almost always camp where there are trees and the
poles add a lot of weight. Not so much of a problem in the boat but I
also like to use my equipment for hiking.
I think a simple square of fabric supported across the diagonal between
two trees and stretched across all four corners corners, two to the
trees and two to the ground, works almost as well and is much simpler to
fabricate. True, it does not take advantage of the arch effect of a
catenary parabaloid, but it doesn't need to. I find it hard to believe
that the only company that sells such a thing is Campmor and their price
is too high. A big square of rain fly material with a few loops or
grommets should do the job just fine...for less money.

"steveJ" wrote in message
...
and embed some kind of a tension
member in them,

See..thats the whole problem..I just want something that doesnt require
any poles because I almost always camp where there are trees and the
poles add a lot of weight.

Don't need no steenking poles. Unless you have hiking poles or your canoe
pole breaks down.

Nuthin' in my rant that said anythin' 'bout poles. I use mine poleless
whenever I can.

Not so much of a problem in the boat but I
also like to use my equipment for hiking.
I think a simple square of fabric supported across the diagonal between
two trees and stretched across all four corners corners, two to the
trees and two to the ground, works almost as well and is much simpler to
fabricate.

'Almost.' Which is the whole point. The square, rigged as you describe, is
slack in the middle, will flap in the wind, and will collect rainwater and
snow. Hence the interest in topology. A properly done wing will be quiet
and stable in the wind, will shed water reliably, and will shed snow with a
kick from below.

True, it does not take advantage of the arch effect of a
catenary parabaloid, but it doesn't need to.

If you don't think so, then you're all set with a tarp. People have been
happy with flat tarps for centuries. Civilization marches on.

I find it hard to believe
that the only company that sells such a thing is Campmor and their price
is too high. A big square of rain fly material with a few loops or
grommets should do the job just fine...for less money.

I haven't seen Campmor's, so I don't have an opinion. I conspicuously
avoided mentioning brands.

Fred

So what's the "tension member" if not a pole?

Fred Klingener wrote:
"steveJ" wrote in message
...

and embed some kind of a tension
member in them,

See..thats the whole problem..I just want something that doesnt require
any poles because I almost always camp where there are trees and the
poles add a lot of weight.


Don't need no steenking poles. Unless you have hiking poles or your canoe
pole breaks down.

Nuthin' in my rant that said anythin' 'bout poles. I use mine poleless
whenever I can.


Not so much of a problem in the boat but I
also like to use my equipment for hiking.
I think a simple square of fabric supported across the diagonal between
two trees and stretched across all four corners corners, two to the
trees and two to the ground, works almost as well and is much simpler to
fabricate.


'Almost.' Which is the whole point. The square, rigged as you describe, is
slack in the middle, will flap in the wind, and will collect rainwater and
snow. Hence the interest in topology. A properly done wing will be quiet
and stable in the wind, will shed water reliably, and will shed snow with a
kick from below.


True, it does not take advantage of the arch effect of a
catenary parabaloid, but it doesn't need to.


If you don't think so, then you're all set with a tarp. People have been
happy with flat tarps for centuries. Civilization marches on.


I find it hard to believe
that the only company that sells such a thing is Campmor and their price
is too high. A big square of rain fly material with a few loops or
grommets should do the job just fine...for less money.


I haven't seen Campmor's, so I don't have an opinion. I conspicuously
avoided mentioning brands.

Fred

"steveJ" wrote in message
...

Fred Klingener wrote:
"steveJ" wrote in message
...

and embed some kind of a tension
member in them,

See..thats the whole problem..I just want something that doesnt require
any poles because I almost always camp where there are trees and the
poles add a lot of weight.


Don't need no steenking poles. . . .

So what's the "tension member" if not a pole?

Sorry for the engineering bull****. The 'tension member' can just be a cord
or cable passing through a tunnel sewn in the edge. Just like the hardware
store blue tarps, except, to make the membrane work, curved.

Fred

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:06:43 GMT, steveJ wrote:

Mike McCrea wrote:
I'd suggest a coated-nylon parawing. For just the two of you a 12x12
parawing would provide plenty of room for two bodies, some gear and
even a kitchen area.

Tarps are great of course for rainy days, but also for use as a
sunshade, and wings are more stable in the wind and drain water more
efficiently that a flat tarp. A 12x12 coated nylon tarp packs down to
the size of a small football and can be set up effectively with only 2
"poles" (staking the two unpoled corners to the ground with a short
piece of line).

For kayak camping you can devise a way to use your paddles as poles
for the two high corners (or better yet your spare paddles, which will
allow you to leave the tarp set up while you day paddle and explore
away from camp).

The parawings seem great. They are pretty expensive though.

In a sport with each boat costing $700 plus on average?

The wing tarp will alst a long time, and be usable for many camping
activities.

There are less expensive knock-offs of the original Moss/now MSR
design.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Yup..at 200 bucks I hope so.

Gary S. wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:06:43 GMT, steveJ wrote:


Mike McCrea wrote:

I'd suggest a coated-nylon parawing. For just the two of you a 12x12
parawing would provide plenty of room for two bodies, some gear and
even a kitchen area.

Tarps are great of course for rainy days, but also for use as a
sunshade, and wings are more stable in the wind and drain water more
efficiently that a flat tarp. A 12x12 coated nylon tarp packs down to
the size of a small football and can be set up effectively with only 2
"poles" (staking the two unpoled corners to the ground with a short
piece of line).

For kayak camping you can devise a way to use your paddles as poles
for the two high corners (or better yet your spare paddles, which will
allow you to leave the tarp set up while you day paddle and explore
away from camp).


The parawings seem great. They are pretty expensive though.


In a sport with each boat costing $700 plus on average?

The wing tarp will alst a long time, and be usable for many camping
activities.

There are less expensive knock-offs of the original Moss/now MSR
design.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

I use an MSR dragon fly and love it. It is light weight, multi-fuel, field
maintainable, fast to boil, and has a simmer valve for precise control. My
only complaint is that it is loud; think mini jet engine.

You might consider one of the Ray Jardine tarp kits .

http://www.ray-way.com/kits/index.shtml

Contrary to the picture shown on the web page in his tarp book he list various ways of using the tarp
with line between trees .

This type tarp would appear to be what is being used on a kayaking trip from foldingkayakadventures
web page :

http://www.dotphoto.com/GuestViewIma...1&IID=36872892

though in this case there are still no trees just sticks found along the shore .

Or a Kifaru Paratarp , if you are not into sewing , but I think it is less versatile . They come in a
coyote brown color now .

http://www.kifaru.net/paratarp.htm


D


Mike McCrea wrote:

I'd suggest a coated-nylon parawing. ...

Tarps are great of course for rainy days, but also for use as a
sunshade, and wings are more stable in the wind and drain water more
efficiently that a flat tarp.....

For kayak camping you can devise a way to use your paddles as poles
for the two high corners (or better yet your spare paddles, which will
allow you to leave the tarp set up while you day paddle and explore
away from camp).

wpatrick wrote in message ...
We have not bought.... camping gear in years and are looking for recommendations on makes,
models,