Class I, Class II, Class III, .......
Can you expect somebody, who is obviously without any clue and experience,
to
know what he is going to do and to judge the class of a river section on a
given
day?

I agree with you. The original poster appears to be "obviously without any
clue and experience." Thus he's not in a position to judge the difficulties
and danger of whatever whitewater he chooses to paddle. As a result, he's
potentially a danger to himself and anyone else on the river.

Sure, the look of foaming roaring rapids is kind of discouraging and will
make
people reconsider their plans, but there are spots which look very
easy/harmless
and turn out to be the real killers.

Which is why I suggest that even class II water is unsafe for someone who
doesn't know what he's doing.

Up to a certain point the boater's skills are the limit, then the material
comes
in.


Absolutely. And if the boater's skills are limited, trouble may not be too
far ahead. The kind of boat you paddle isn't going to help you, your skills
and abilities are.

The whole discussion is a bit gaga, and I wonder if somebody came up with
an
idea to stuff the summer hole in this group by throwing a stupid idea
around


It *is* a bit gaga. If the original poster hadn't responded to some of the
replies, I would have guessed this was all one big troll.

Michael Daly wrote:

Perception kayaks, particularly the sea kayaks, are among the worst
on the market. They handle poorly (many _require_ a rudder) and
many of us know that kayaks should handle without a rudder. So
much for Perception.

Weren't you the one selling a glass Shadow back last spring? Seemed like
you thought pretty highly of that boat back then?

Perception makes boats that range from the Sparky to real WW boats to
$3K Kevlar sea kayaks. Some of them are very popular. I think you're
generalizing too much.

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

On 7-Aug-2003, Steve Cramer wrote:

Weren't you the one selling a glass Shadow back last spring? Seemed like
you thought pretty highly of that boat back then?

I never said anything about it that would indicate that I liked it. My SO is
selling it. Why would she sell a good boat?

Perception makes boats that range from the Sparky to real WW boats to
$3K Kevlar sea kayaks. Some of them are very popular. I think you're
generalizing too much.

Their "top of the line" sea kayaks handle very poorly in rough conditions.
The Shadow and Eclipse both need a rudder. They wander like crazy in
rough seas. No kayak should rely on a rudder. If it can't track reasonably
without a rudder, it's a liability.

Popularity is rarely an indicator of quality. Look at MS Windows. Perception
is all over the place, but they are second-rate kayaks compared to the competition.

Mike

"Felsenmeer" wrote in
:


Class I, Class II, Class III, .......
Can you expect somebody, who is obviously without any clue and
experience, to know what he is going to do and to judge the class of a
river section on a given day?

I agree with you. The original poster appears to be "obviously without
any clue and experience." Thus he's not in a position to judge the
difficulties and danger of whatever whitewater he chooses to paddle.
As a result, he's potentially a danger to himself and anyone else on
the river.

Yet everyone chose to ignore the issue of experience and focused on the boat
that he wanted to paddle. I don't recall seeing "if you want to paddle on
whitewater you should take some classes first".

Sure, the look of foaming roaring rapids is kind of discouraging and
will make people reconsider their plans, but there are spots which
look very easy/harmless and turn out to be the real killers.

Which is why I suggest that even class II water is unsafe for someone
who doesn't know what he's doing.

While I agree that even class II water *can* have catastrophic consequenses
(as could tripping and falling head first into a bathtub full of water) the
risks are most likely pretty low. I would guess that one puts themselves in
greater risk driving back and forth to the river.


Up to a certain point the boater's skills are the limit, then the
material comes in.


Absolutely. And if the boater's skills are limited, trouble may not be
too far ahead. The kind of boat you paddle isn't going to help you,
your skills and abilities are.

The whole discussion is a bit gaga, and I wonder if somebody came up
with an idea to stuff the summer hole in this group by throwing a
stupid idea around


It *is* a bit gaga. If the original poster hadn't responded to some of
the replies, I would have guessed this was all one big troll.

Baloney. Given the huge growth of recreational kayaks in the past few years
it's a valid question that deserves more than a knee jerk reaction.

I agree with you. The original poster appears to be "obviously without
any clue and experience." Thus he's not in a position to judge the
difficulties and danger of whatever whitewater he chooses to paddle.
As a result, he's potentially a danger to himself and anyone else on
the river.

Yet everyone chose to ignore the issue of experience and focused on the
boat
that he wanted to paddle. I don't recall seeing "if you want to paddle on
whitewater you should take some classes first".


Try running that thought past the whitewater kayaking community and see what
kind of reponse you get...

While I agree that even class II water *can* have catastrophic
consequenses
(as could tripping and falling head first into a bathtub full of water)
the
risks are most likely pretty low. I would guess that one puts themselves
in
greater risk driving back and forth to the river.



I'm not sure the "reductio ad absurdum" argument works here. You could get
hit by a car crossing the street. We've been debating the class II
whitewater issue, but the original poster just said whitewater. Check
around the whitewater messageboards on the internet sometime, and see what
kinds of whitewater people are tubing, floating, etc. You regularly see
posts about kayakers having to rescue Joe Sixpack or his daughter because
they just aired up their Walmart raft and tryed to float the Chatooga or
something. This guy doesn't strike me as any different; I've seen it too
many times.

I guarantee you that people are taking their lives in their hands on a daily
basis, trying to treat serious whitewater rivers as a "float stream."


The whole discussion is a bit gaga, and I wonder if somebody came up
with an idea to stuff the summer hole in this group by throwing a
stupid idea around


It *is* a bit gaga. If the original poster hadn't responded to some of
the replies, I would have guessed this was all one big troll.

Baloney. Given the huge growth of recreational kayaks in the past few
years
it's a valid question that deserves more than a knee jerk reaction.

It's not a knee jerk reaction. You're right that it's a valid question.
And the answer to that question is: rec boats shouldn't be on whitewater.
Period. They're designed for fla****er, or typical moving water, not
whitewater. I don't see any difference between suggesting that it's OK for
this guy to paddle whitewater in a boat not designed for it, or suggesting
that it's OK to get out on Tampa Bay wearing a cotton Tshirt and PFD stowed
in your hatch because its a calm day and the weather forecast is clear. If
you're going to be safe, be safe. Too many people are getting hurt or
killed out there because they're rolling the dice.

"Felsenmeer" wrote in
:



I agree with you. The original poster appears to be "obviously
without any clue and experience." Thus he's not in a position to
judge the difficulties and danger of whatever whitewater he chooses
to paddle. As a result, he's potentially a danger to himself and
anyone else on the river.

Yet everyone chose to ignore the issue of experience and focused on
the boat that he wanted to paddle. I don't recall seeing "if you want
to paddle on whitewater you should take some classes first".


Try running that thought past the whitewater kayaking community and see
what kind of reponse you get...

I've been reading rec.boats.paddle (which despite it's generic name does
have a whitewater focus) and from what I've seen the general consensus
appears to be that taking classes first is a good idea. Just look at any
thread in which a newcomer has asked about how to get into the sport. I
also was involved in the off line discussion which led to the creation of
this newsgroup.

I also go beyond just telling people to take classes. Every winter I teach
first time kayakers in whitewater kayaks the basics (and have taught quite a
few how to roll on their first day) and help teach beginning and
intermediate classes in sea kayaks out of a local shop, purely on a
volunteer basis.

While I agree that even class II water *can* have catastrophic
consequenses (as could tripping and falling head first into a bathtub
full of water) the risks are most likely pretty low. I would guess
that one puts themselves in greater risk driving back and forth to the
river.



I'm not sure the "reductio ad absurdum" argument works here. You could
get hit by a car crossing the street. We've been debating the class II
whitewater issue, but the original poster just said whitewater.

It's not an "reductio ad absurdum" arguement. In terms of risk assessment
paddling on class II whitewater falls in between paddling on a calm pond
and paddling on class IV-V whitewater. Driving back and forth from home and
the river is in there somewhere too. My guess is that the risks of driving
to/from the river are much closer to paddling higher rated rivers than
paddling a Sparky on a calm pond.


Check
around the whitewater messageboards on the internet sometime, and see
what kinds of whitewater people are tubing, floating, etc. You
regularly see posts about kayakers having to rescue Joe Sixpack or his
daughter because they just aired up their Walmart raft and tryed to
float the Chatooga or something. This guy doesn't strike me as any
different; I've seen it too many times.

I fully understand the dangers of paddling and have been reading online
paddling forums for six (at least) years so I've seen most of the incident
reports.

I guarantee you that people are taking their lives in their hands on a
daily basis, trying to treat serious whitewater rivers as a "float
stream."

Define serious whitewater.



The whole discussion is a bit gaga, and I wonder if somebody came
up with an idea to stuff the summer hole in this group by throwing
a stupid idea around


It *is* a bit gaga. If the original poster hadn't responded to some
of the replies, I would have guessed this was all one big troll.

Baloney. Given the huge growth of recreational kayaks in the past few
years it's a valid question that deserves more than a knee jerk
reaction.

It's not a knee jerk reaction. You're right that it's a valid
question. And the answer to that question is: rec boats shouldn't be on
whitewater. Period.

No, that answer is elitist bull****.

They're designed for fla****er, or typical moving
water, not whitewater.

Whitewater kayaks aren't designed for open water paddling either.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever paddled a recreational kayak on a class
II river?


I don't see any difference between suggesting
that it's OK for this guy to paddle whitewater in a boat not designed
for it, or suggesting that it's OK to get out on Tampa Bay wearing a
cotton Tshirt and PFD stowed in your hatch because its a calm day and
the weather forecast is clear. If you're going to be safe, be safe.
Too many people are getting hurt or killed out there because they're
rolling the dice.

or driving a car.

When it comes to assessing risk and determining what is safe and what is not
one has to draw the line somewhere. In my mind, and based on my experience,
the risks involved in paddling a recreational on moving water up to class II
are essentially the same as the risks involved in paddling a "real"
whitewater kayak on moving water up to class II. Where the risk differs is,
IMHO, based more on the skill level of the paddler and specific knowledge of
what the risks are and how best to mitigate them, rather that the craft
being paddled. Flippant responses such as "notify your next of kin" or
banning recreational kayaks from all forms of whitewater serve no redeemable
purpose whatsoever.

"Felsenmeer" wrote in message
...

After I got my ACA
certification, I started teaching with a local whitewater club (it's all
volunteer),

Volunteer! Glad to see you're not part of the canoe and kayak scam that
killed 1000 americans....

Volunteer! Glad to see you're not part of the canoe and kayak scam that
killed 1000 americans....


OK, I'll bite- how has the ACA instructor program killed 1000 Americans?
Let's see some good, solid, factual info...

Volunteer! Glad to see you're not part of the canoe and kayak scam that
killed 1000 americans....


OK, I'll bite- how has the ACA instructor program killed 1000 Americans?
Let's see some good, solid, factual info...


Now I get it :-) Obviously "good, solid, factual info" will not be
forthcoming anytime soon. I'll have to read Timmy's book sometime (assuming
I can get a copy at the library so I don't have to plunk down any cash for
it...)

"Felsenmeer" wrote in message
...

Volunteer! Glad to see you're not part of the canoe and kayak scam
that
killed 1000 americans....


OK, I'll bite- how has the ACA instructor program killed 1000 Americans?
Let's see some good, solid, factual info...


Now I get it :-) Obviously "good, solid, factual info" will not be
forthcoming anytime soon.

Nope.

I'll have to read Timmy's book sometime

Why not just have someone drive screws through your toes?