"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
...
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

I hope not because a brigantine is a two-masted, square-rigged ship with
fore and aft mainsail. A 'brig' is a lubberly shortening of the word
'brigantine.'

Wilbur Hubbard

http://www.answers.com/brig&r=67

Note that the first definition is from the *American* heritage dictionary
(so this is not your language being differnt!), and it has a link to
brigantine with the description of the different rig.

Andy

Wrong! Let me repeat. A brigantine is a two masted vessel, square-rigged
but with fore and aft mainsail.
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/d.../d0002703.html

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/brigantine

http://www.geocities.com/cjstein_2000/dictionary.html#B

note: a gaff sail is a fore and aft sail.

Wilbur Hubbard

There's little point in quoting references on the internet, most of them are
plagiarised from other sources (for example, Google any of the phrases that
support the above arguments, such as "A two-masted sailing ship,
square-rigged on both masts." or "a two-Masted vessel with both masts square
rigged. On the sternmost mast, the main mast, there is also a gaff sail.")

I'm not convinced that there's a hard and fast definition. Sailing vessels
are constantly evolving so they make the most of the extant sailing
conditions, so having a brig (square rigged only) and adding a fore and aft
sail (it's still a brig) seems perfectly reasonable.

Alisdair

"Ronald Raygun" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:

On 2007-08-23 09:33:08 -0700, Ronald Raygun
said:

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

A 'brig' is the term used for a prison. You know like, "Throw the
******* into the brig!" Buck up there, man! Call a spade a spade.
It's
a 'brigantine.'

Not so. They are brigs (square rigged on both masts). Brigantines
are square rigged only on the fore mast.

Yep, a brig is a two-master with the forward mast shorter than the
after. If the forward mast is taller it's a ketch. (Unless the mizzen
is behind the rudder post, then it's a yawl.)

If the fore mast is shorter than the main it could also be a schooner.
I gather the distinction between that and a brigantine is that the
schooner has no square sails at all.

Would you have a ketch/yawl with square sails?


http://www.sailbaltimore.org/shiptypes.htm

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
...
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

I hope not because a brigantine is a two-masted, square-rigged ship
with fore and aft mainsail. A 'brig' is a lubberly shortening of the
word 'brigantine.'

Wilbur Hubbard

http://www.answers.com/brig&r=67

Note that the first definition is from the *American* heritage
dictionary (so this is not your language being differnt!), and it has
a link to brigantine with the description of the different rig.

Andy

Wrong! Let me repeat. A brigantine is a two masted vessel, square-rigged
but with fore and aft mainsail.
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/d.../d0002703.html


http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/brigantine

http://www.geocities.com/cjstein_2000/dictionary.html#B

note: a gaff sail is a fore and aft sail.

Wilbur Hubbard

Perhaps my snipping is innacurate, or perhaps you are trolling (and no,
I am not referring to piscatorial activities) but it seems to me that
the three links you have given all have seperate definitions for "Brig",
and none of them suggest that it is merely "a lubberly shortening of the
word 'brigantine' ".

This has little to do with whether the Trust is correct to sell its vessel.

Andy

On 23 Aug, 17:56, Dave wrote:

Yep, a brig is a two-master with the forward mast shorter than the
after.

That's a schooner.

Or can be. All these terms - brig, brigantine, schooner, ship, barque
and so on - were pretty flexible, and meant little more than what the
person using them meant.

Ian

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
...
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
...
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

I hope not because a brigantine is a two-masted, square-rigged ship
with fore and aft mainsail. A 'brig' is a lubberly shortening of
the word 'brigantine.'

Wilbur Hubbard

http://www.answers.com/brig&r=67

Note that the first definition is from the *American* heritage
dictionary (so this is not your language being differnt!), and it
has a link to brigantine with the description of the different rig.

Andy

Wrong! Let me repeat. A brigantine is a two masted vessel,
square-rigged but with fore and aft mainsail.
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/d.../d0002703.html
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/brigantine

http://www.geocities.com/cjstein_2000/dictionary.html#B

note: a gaff sail is a fore and aft sail.

Wilbur Hubbard

Perhaps my snipping is innacurate, or perhaps you are trolling (and
no, I am not referring to piscatorial activities) but it seems to me
that the three links you have given all have seperate definitions for
"Brig", and none of them suggest that it is merely "a lubberly
shortening of the word 'brigantine' ".

This has little to do with whether the Trust is correct to sell its
vessel.

Andy

I Googled some pics of the Trust's brigs (they are brigs according to
definition because the pictures showed they are both square-rigged on
both masts with no fore-and-aft sails on the masts) and they are nice
looking boats. But, whose to say the Trust doesn't have good reason to
sell whatever boats they want to sell

Wilbur Hubbard

On 2007-08-23 10:33:26 -0700, Ronald Raygun
said:

Dave wrote:
Yep, a brig is a two-master with the forward mast shorter than the
after. If the forward mast is taller it's a ketch. (Unless the mizzen
is behind the rudder post, then it's a yawl.)

If the fore mast is shorter than the main it could also be a schooner.
I gather the distinction between that and a brigantine is that the
schooner has no square sails at all.

Oh! I was going to mention schooners, too. A schooner can have a square
topsail, but I guess it isn't a schooner any more if it has a square
course.

Now on to xebecs, carracks, smacks, and hoys..

-D

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

I Googled some pics of the Trust's brigs (they are brigs according to
definition because the pictures showed they are both square-rigged on
both masts with no fore-and-aft sails on the masts) and they are nice
looking boats.

Must try harder on the old observational skills, matey.

They *do* have a fore-and-aft sail on the after mast. It seems to be
a common feature of virtualy all sizeable vessels of this era that at
least the after mast always has at least one gaff sail. One must
presume there must have been a technical reason for this.

The distinction between brig and brigantine is simply whether the
after mast is *exclusively* fore-and-aft or *also* has square sails.

"Ronald Raygun" wrote in message
...
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

I Googled some pics of the Trust's brigs (they are brigs according to
definition because the pictures showed they are both square-rigged on
both masts with no fore-and-aft sails on the masts) and they are nice
looking boats.

Must try harder on the old observational skills, matey.

They *do* have a fore-and-aft sail on the after mast. It seems to be
a common feature of virtualy all sizeable vessels of this era that at
least the after mast always has at least one gaff sail. One must
presume there must have been a technical reason for this.

The distinction between brig and brigantine is simply whether the
after mast is *exclusively* fore-and-aft or *also* has square sails.


The photos I Googled showed both of them sailing together and neither on
had a fore and aft sail on the mainmast. Both masts were square-rigged
from top to bottom.

http://www.tallshipsyouthtrust.net/d...t=693&doc=6823

This means they are rightly called 'brigs.' If they were fitted with a
gaff mainsail at some time earlier or later then they should be called
'brigantines.' See the link with illustrations I posted further up this
thread.

I hope this helps.

Wilbur Hubbard

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

The photos I Googled showed both of them sailing together and neither on
had a fore and aft sail on the mainmast. Both masts were square-rigged
from top to bottom.

http://www.tallshipsyouthtrust.net/d...t=693&doc=6823

That picture shows them from ahead which makes it difficult to see
whether the gaff sails on the main masts are present.

Go to their homepage http://www.tallshipsyouthtrust.net and there
is a photo of one of them from less directly ahead, where you can
clearly see a gaff sail on the after mast (and the mainsail, i.e.
the bottom-most square sail on the main mast, is present, but furled).

On the menu along the left, click on "The Ships" (which takes you to
the page you mentioned, with the photo of the two side by side), and
then on "Our Tall Ships". This takes you to a page which contains a
photo from the quarter, which makes it a bit clearer.

On the same page there is also a sail plan with names, and the gaff
sail is identified as a "spanker".

This means they are rightly called 'brigs.'

We're agreed on that, at least.

If they were fitted with a
gaff mainsail at some time earlier or later then they should be called
'brigantines.'

Not if the gaff sails were there *as well as* the square sails.

A brigantine has no (provision to set) square sails on the after mast
at all, but if a brig (which of course has square sails on both masts)
also carries a spanker (as it usually does), that doesn't make it a
brigantine.

"Ronald Raygun" wrote in message
k...
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

The photos I Googled showed both of them sailing together and neither
on
had a fore and aft sail on the mainmast. Both masts were
square-rigged
from top to bottom.

http://www.tallshipsyouthtrust.net/d...t=693&doc=6823

That picture shows them from ahead which makes it difficult to see
whether the gaff sails on the main masts are present.

Go to their homepage http://www.tallshipsyouthtrust.net and there
is a photo of one of them from less directly ahead, where you can
clearly see a gaff sail on the after mast (and the mainsail, i.e.
the bottom-most square sail on the main mast, is present, but furled).

But, on the picture I linked to one can see square sails all the way
down to the deck. You cannot run a squaresail and a fore and aft
mainsail on the mainmast at the same time.


On the menu along the left, click on "The Ships" (which takes you to
the page you mentioned, with the photo of the two side by side), and
then on "Our Tall Ships". This takes you to a page which contains a
photo from the quarter, which makes it a bit clearer.

On the same page there is also a sail plan with names, and the gaff
sail is identified as a "spanker".

This means they are rightly called 'brigs.'

We're agreed on that, at least.

If they were fitted with a
gaff mainsail at some time earlier or later then they should be
called
'brigantines.'

Not if the gaff sails were there *as well as* the square sails.

Not so. A brigantine often flies topsails above the gaff mainsail on the
mainmast provided the wind isn't too stiff.


A brigantine has no (provision to set) square sails on the after mast
at all, but if a brig (which of course has square sails on both masts)
also carries a spanker (as it usually does), that doesn't make it a
brigantine.

POPPYCOCK! The mainsail does not preclude the use of square rigged
topsails. Look at the illustrations I linked to in another post and
you'll see it for yourself.

Wilbur Hubbard