Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 19:07:10 -0400, "D.Duck" wrote:
I still don't think there are as many union electricians and plumbers making
you would like everyone believe. But now you spin it to *specialty
welders*.

Had a union plumber out a couple months ago to replace the pump in my
Tramco lift system. The non-union guy I rejected told me the pump
itself cost $2300 but didn't give a labor estimate.
The union plumber, Peter, was actually seminary-trained - as a priest.
The pump cost was $900 he told me, and he spent about 5 hours working
and a couple hours driving here and back from Chicago.
Sat at the kitchen table to do the bill, put a finger on his chin to
figure the cost. Looked like a priest doing that.
$2100. I was happy.
You figure the hourly on that.
Couple days ago the pump started making noise, so I have to get him
back out here. Damn.

--Vic


I have a female union electrician acquaintance out in San Francisco who
operates the electrical system at a plant. She makes $40+ an hour plus
fringes. Six years ago, she was a college-degreed bookkeeper and bored,
bored, bored. I met her in the first year of her apprenticeship.

That's $1600 a week without OT.

"hk" wrote in message
. ..

Just to clarify, in addition to optical thin film engineers and
technicians, the company also had (still has) many skilled welders,
fabricators, machinists, electricians, general assembly people, plus a
full staff of mechanical, electrical, software engineers and CAD
designers.

This is why Harry's assumption that nobody can possibly know more about
non union workplaces than him is so empty. He has really had a very
narrow exposure to the overall American workforce, despite his claims.

Eisboch


How many of the non-degreed fellows at that plant are making $37 an hour
in the envelope, plus pension and health benefits?


It has been several years since I had an idea of payscales, etc. All I can
say is that the company paid competitive salaries/hourly rates, had a 401
type pension plan to which the company made a varying contribution,
depending on how well we were doing, had an excellent Blue Cross health plan
for which the company paid 75% of the premiums and a dental plan with the
same company contribution. We also picked up the tab for continued
technical education, if it was pertinent to the employee's responsibilities
at the company.

It must have been ok because our turnover rate was virtually zero. We did
lose one welder to the "Big Dig" because they were offering pay/overtime
packages at the time that were way out of whack with industry. The welder
came back though, after a year of busting his ass, working night shifts plus
overtime. It wasn't worth it to him.

We also had a close knit, teamwork culture. Quite often during the summer,
on nice weekends, we would simply shut the place down at noontime on Fridays
and let everyone enjoy a longer than normal weekend at home. They were
fully paid for the day of course.

And, when the company was sold the first time, every employee shared in the
financial rewards, based on a formula I came up with. Basically, each
employee got a thousand bucks for every month or part of a month he or she
had worked for the company.
Several people received enough to pay off house mortgages, or move up to
larger homes, as they had over 11 years at the company.

My son and I bought the company back several years later when the buyers
determined the business was not in line with future plans. (They were,
themselves the subject of an acquisition).

My son ran the company for the past 5 years. Lightning struck twice and
again, it became a desirable acquisition by a globally based, high tech
organization.

The financial rewards of the recent sale were also shared proportionally
with all employees, most of whom had also received a share of the first
sale. None of the employees who received either or both benefits were
shareholders.

I am very, very proud of the company I had, the work ethic of the employees
and their loyalty, sense of teamwork and quality of the systems we produced.
Our customers shared that viewpoint.

So, being union at whatever per hour isn't the answer to everything.


Eisboch

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 14:50:36 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Tell Gene his shop guys don't have decent jobs.
Tell Eisboch his shop guys don't have decent jobs.
Ask them if the gov should do their best to keep those jobs here.
Tell my son the truck suspension guy he doesn't have a decent job.
Go right ahead.

Gene's guys work on aircraft and/or are machinists. Both require
high skill levels.

Eisboch's (former) guys did complex optics and vacuum deposition work,
more highly skilled jobs.

I assume your son is a skilled mechanic working on truck suspensions?

All of those jobs are a far cry from assembly line work, and for the
most part they can never be exported, just like construction work.
That does not necessarily mean that their pay will approach the
inflated levels of Detroit auto workers however.

With regard to exporting IT jobs to India, I think that we'd both
agree that only relatively large projects make sense. The smaller
work will always stay here close to the business.


Don't bet on it.

hk wrote:
D.Duck wrote:
"hk" wrote in message
...
D.Duck wrote:
"hk" wrote in message
. ..
Eisboch wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 14:50:36 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Tell Gene his shop guys don't have decent jobs.
Tell Eisboch his shop guys don't have decent jobs.
Ask them if the gov should do their best to keep those jobs here.
Tell my son the truck suspension guy he doesn't have a decent job.
Go right ahead.
Gene's guys work on aircraft and/or are machinists. Both require
high skill levels.

Eisboch's (former) guys did complex optics and vacuum deposition
work,
more highly skilled jobs.

I assume your son is a skilled mechanic working on truck
suspensions?

Just to clarify, in addition to optical thin film engineers and
technicians, the company also had (still has) many skilled
welders, fabricators, machinists, electricians, general assembly
people, plus a full staff of mechanical, electrical, software
engineers and CAD designers.

This is why Harry's assumption that nobody can possibly know more
about non union workplaces than him is so empty. He has really
had a very narrow exposure to the overall American workforce,
despite his claims.

Eisboch
How many of the non-degreed fellows at that plant are making $37 an
hour in the envelope, plus pension and health benefits?
How many union guys are making $37 an hour in the envelope?

Construction workers? Lots. Not most, but lots.

My local has a call out for specialty welders for three to four years
of work at rates higher than that, plus the probability of
significant OT. The skills required for those jobs are way over my
pay rate, but...I'm glad to see the rate way up there.

Gosh...I'm amazed you even know what that term in the envelope means.


Believe it or not I was a Teamster at one time. I had to be a member
for my job during college selling/delivering 7-UP.

I still don't think there are as many union electricians and plumbers
making you would like everyone believe. But now you spin it to
*specialty welders*.



Not at all, I just happened to mention an entirely different trade. I
never said the $37 an hour jobs were under contracts negotiated by by
local.

You really need to get a little beyond Reggiethink.

BTW, I was a teamster two college summers. Made about $12.50 an hour
driving a fork lift truck inside a factory in Milford, CT. This was
around 1960-61. Year earlier, I made a bit less loading beer into trucks.

You were over-paid.

"hk" wrote in message
...


BTW, I was a teamster two college summers. Made about $12.50 an hour
driving a fork lift truck inside a factory in Milford, CT. This was around
1960-61. Year earlier, I made a bit less loading beer into trucks.


My first summer job after high school and before starting college was
working for Bekins Moving and Storage,
loading and unloading furniture, pianos, etc. into and out of the moving
vans. $1.95 per hour. (1967)

I would have fallen over at $12.50 an hour, but ..... then again .... you
were *skilled* labor.

Eisboch

On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 19:24:37 -0400, hk wrote:


I have a female union electrician acquaintance out in San Francisco who
operates the electrical system at a plant. She makes $40+ an hour plus
fringes. Six years ago, she was a college-degreed bookkeeper and bored,
bored, bored. I met her in the first year of her apprenticeship.

That's $1600 a week without OT.

Don't think I mentioned this before, but after I got laid off from my
first IT job in '82 (Reagan Depression) I scrambled for odd-jobs.
Worked some house-painting with my brother, and some plumbing jobs
working for Roy, a son of my neighbor.
Roy was working to get a union ticket, but didn't really need it.
Never saw such an energetic hustler as him.
He was doing apartment buildings on the north side, replacing the
clogged galvanized with copper.
What I did mostly was sawz-alling through plumbing walls and pipe and
replacing fixtures. Some digging when we did sewer tile.
We was giving me 10 bucks an hour.
Roy did the brain work - sweating joints.
Big apartment buildings, mostly 12-flats.
One day we're laying side by side in the apartment building owner's
bathroom. I was replacing the toilet stop valve and he was doing the
sink's.
He took off a valve and maybe a half cup of clean water flowed out
flow a saturated anti-hammer leg.
I saw the water heading on the floor for the very nice rug, but Roy
reached up and grabbed a washcloth and laid it on the tiles to stop
it from hitting the carpet. Sure, he should have had a rag.
The owner walks in, and she blows up when she sees her "guest"
washcloth on the floor.
Like a bitch from hell she tears into Roy about it.
I was surprised how that got her off her rocker.
Anyway, she finally leaves and I look at Roy and he looks at me.
He just smiled and said,
"That was a hundred bucks. Easy."
Be nice to your plumber.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 19:24:37 -0400, hk wrote:


I have a female union electrician acquaintance out in San Francisco who
operates the electrical system at a plant. She makes $40+ an hour plus
fringes. Six years ago, she was a college-degreed bookkeeper and bored,
bored, bored. I met her in the first year of her apprenticeship.

That's $1600 a week without OT.

Don't think I mentioned this before, but after I got laid off from my
first IT job in '82 (Reagan Depression) I scrambled for odd-jobs.
Worked some house-painting with my brother, and some plumbing jobs
working for Roy, a son of my neighbor.
Roy was working to get a union ticket, but didn't really need it.
Never saw such an energetic hustler as him.
He was doing apartment buildings on the north side, replacing the
clogged galvanized with copper.
What I did mostly was sawz-alling through plumbing walls and pipe and
replacing fixtures. Some digging when we did sewer tile.
We was giving me 10 bucks an hour.
Roy did the brain work - sweating joints.
Big apartment buildings, mostly 12-flats.
One day we're laying side by side in the apartment building owner's
bathroom. I was replacing the toilet stop valve and he was doing the
sink's.
He took off a valve and maybe a half cup of clean water flowed out
flow a saturated anti-hammer leg.
I saw the water heading on the floor for the very nice rug, but Roy
reached up and grabbed a washcloth and laid it on the tiles to stop
it from hitting the carpet. Sure, he should have had a rag.
The owner walks in, and she blows up when she sees her "guest"
washcloth on the floor.
Like a bitch from hell she tears into Roy about it.
I was surprised how that got her off her rocker.
Anyway, she finally leaves and I look at Roy and he looks at me.
He just smiled and said,
"That was a hundred bucks. Easy."
Be nice to your plumber.

--Vic


Now a *union* plumber wouldn't do that. 8)

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 19:16:54 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:


"Vic Smith" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 17:25:40 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:



We both know that millions of Americans and Canadians would love to have
$50K manufacturing jobs with half decent benefits and something of a
stable
future.

I hear what you're saying, Don, but...I really don't care about the
Canadian economy. I avoid Canadian built GM vehicles.
You guys should stick to providing fish and running lodges up there.

--Vic

You do realize that you'd be freezing in the dark if it wasn't for
Canadian
oil, natural gas , hydro electricity etc etc.

Okay. I take it all back.

--Vic

What gets me is how quick some Americans are to blame their problems on
Canada, when you ran a hugh deficit with Japan for years and now China.

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"hk" wrote in message
. ..

Just to clarify, in addition to optical thin film engineers and
technicians, the company also had (still has) many skilled welders,
fabricators, machinists, electricians, general assembly people, plus a
full staff of mechanical, electrical, software engineers and CAD
designers.

This is why Harry's assumption that nobody can possibly know more about
non union workplaces than him is so empty. He has really had a very
narrow exposure to the overall American workforce, despite his claims.

Eisboch


How many of the non-degreed fellows at that plant are making $37 an hour
in the envelope, plus pension and health benefits?


It has been several years since I had an idea of payscales, etc. All I
can say is that the company paid competitive salaries/hourly rates, had a
401 type pension plan to which the company made a varying contribution,
depending on how well we were doing, had an excellent Blue Cross health
plan for which the company paid 75% of the premiums and a dental plan with
the same company contribution. We also picked up the tab for continued
technical education, if it was pertinent to the employee's
responsibilities at the company.

It must have been ok because our turnover rate was virtually zero. We
did lose one welder to the "Big Dig" because they were offering
pay/overtime packages at the time that were way out of whack with
industry. The welder came back though, after a year of busting his ass,
working night shifts plus overtime. It wasn't worth it to him.

We also had a close knit, teamwork culture. Quite often during the
summer, on nice weekends, we would simply shut the place down at noontime
on Fridays and let everyone enjoy a longer than normal weekend at home.
They were fully paid for the day of course.

And, when the company was sold the first time, every employee shared in
the financial rewards, based on a formula I came up with. Basically, each
employee got a thousand bucks for every month or part of a month he or she
had worked for the company.
Several people received enough to pay off house mortgages, or move up to
larger homes, as they had over 11 years at the company.

My son and I bought the company back several years later when the buyers
determined the business was not in line with future plans. (They were,
themselves the subject of an acquisition).

My son ran the company for the past 5 years. Lightning struck twice and
again, it became a desirable acquisition by a globally based, high tech
organization.

The financial rewards of the recent sale were also shared proportionally
with all employees, most of whom had also received a share of the first
sale. None of the employees who received either or both benefits were
shareholders.

I am very, very proud of the company I had, the work ethic of the
employees and their loyalty, sense of teamwork and quality of the systems
we produced. Our customers shared that viewpoint.

So, being union at whatever per hour isn't the answer to everything.


Eisboch


That's quite a story. Congratulations on running an excellent organization.

"Earl of Warwich, Duke of Cornwall, Marquies of Anglesea, Sir Reginald P.
Smithers III Esq. LLC, STP. " wrote in message
. ..
Don White wrote:
"Earl of Warwich, Duke of Cornwall, Marquies of Anglesea, Sir Reginald P.
Smithers III Esq. LLC, STP. " wrote in message
...
Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 16:26:11 -0400, hk wrote:

You have to realize that W'hine and Reggie aren't regular guys, and
have no connection to working men or women.
I can't speak for Reggie but in my case you have *no* idea what you
are talking about.

Harry has a long history of making 1000's of posts on subjects he has NO
idea what he is talking about. Why should this be any different?

I think he's pegged you pretty good over the years.
Come on out from hidding and we'll judge for ourselves.

Don, what do you want to know?


Your real name would be a good start and the line of work you did to build
your fortune..