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#1
posted to rec.boats
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Fuel Starvation?
DownTime wrote:
Gene Kearns wrote: "Nothing in this chapter shall prohibit the selling of a consumer product which has both full and limited warranties if such warranties are clearly and conspicuously differentiated. " Most warranties are going to be fairly specific about the type of fuel you can use. If not, there would be people wanting to sue them over unsuccessfully using propane (or acetylene, or hydrogen) in a boat. The law was on your side.... it probably won't be for Downtime.... The full email is pasted below. I am curious to know if they, or any company can decide to change warranty terms 'on the fly'. I think I might be missing something here, time for a call to the dealer to clarify this. "To All BMW of Fort Myers Customers: We have been advised by BMWNA that with the release of E10 and E85 gasoline with ethanol, there is a need to advise customers that is very important to put quality gasoline into their vehicles. The sale of E10, blended ethanol fuel, is on the rise in the US as more states are mandating its use to improve air quality. Also promoting the growth of E10 allows the phase out of the current additive MTBE that has been found to contaminate ground water supplies. Even so, the amount of ethanol added to the gasoline could raise the alcohol level of the fuel and cause your vehicle to crank, but not start; stall out; and/or run rough. BMW has advised us that they will not warranty, or goodwill, necessary repairs due to bad gas or high alcohol content in the fuel. Some of the parts that could be damaged by poor fuel quality include fuel pumps (high pressure pumps as well), fuel filter, injectors, etc. The problems start because E10 is very effective solvent and it will attack varnish, gum, and resins: the sludge that can build up in fuel tanks. Once cleaned off the fuel tank walls, poor performance with clogged filters and injectors is common. Also ethanol has a great affinity for water, and will attract moisture from the atmosphere. Water is heavier than gas so the water/ethanol molecule is dragged to the bottom of the tank and separates from the more buoyant fuel molecules. This is called phase separation. When this separation occurs you end up with a corrosive water/ethanol layer on the bottom of the tank, under what is now substandard fuel. Water displaces gasoline and then pits and corrodes the metal surfaces causing premature wear on the fuel pump. Water also reacts with various components in the fuel and forms acids, which corrode the injector tips as well. Water when sucked into an engine will shut it down. It must be cleaned, and the oil changed. However, a water/ethanol mixture causes a more serious problem, because instead of just shutting the engine down, the mixture can be partially combusted, but not effectively, which can damage the engine. Over a period of time this mixture will cause excessive carbon deposits, which can wear on pistons and valves. We recommend that only "top tier" fuels be used, and if necessary a gasoline additive with "techron" be added, occasionally. If possible, make sure you know your gasoline retailer and try to buy your gasoline from the same location as often as possible. The best deal isn't always the cheapest deal." This is absurdity on its face. Almost all gasoline is delivered to retail stations from tank farms, where everyone's product is pretty much exactly this same, other than additives dumped in to raise octane. You think "Shell" gasoline comes from Shell? How are you supposed to know if you are buying "top tier" gasoline, since what's in the tanks of the service stations could be almost anything. |
#2
posted to rec.boats
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Fuel Starvation?
On Jul 21, 3:55*pm, HK wrote:
DownTime wrote: Gene Kearns wrote: "Nothing in this chapter shall prohibit the selling of a consumer product which has both full and limited warranties if such warranties are clearly and conspicuously differentiated. " Most warranties are going to be fairly specific about the type of fuel you can use. If not, there would be people wanting to sue them over unsuccessfully using propane (or acetylene, or hydrogen) in a boat. The law was on your side.... it probably won't be for Downtime.... The full email is pasted below. I am curious to know if they, or any company can decide to change warranty terms 'on the fly'. I think I might be missing something here, time for a call to the dealer to clarify this. "To All BMW of Fort Myers Customers: We have been advised by BMWNA that with the release of E10 and E85 gasoline with ethanol, there is a need to advise customers that is very important to put quality gasoline into their vehicles. The sale of E10, blended ethanol fuel, is on the rise in the US as more states are mandating its use to improve air quality. *Also promoting the growth of E10 allows the phase out of the current additive MTBE that has been found to contaminate ground water supplies. *Even so, the amount of ethanol added to the gasoline could raise the alcohol level of the fuel and cause your vehicle to crank, but not start; stall out; and/or run rough. *BMW has advised us that they will not warranty, or goodwill, necessary repairs due to bad gas or high alcohol content in the fuel. Some of the parts that could be damaged by poor fuel quality include fuel pumps (high pressure pumps as well), fuel filter, injectors, etc. The problems start because E10 is very effective solvent and it will attack varnish, gum, and resins: *the sludge that can build up in fuel tanks. *Once cleaned off the fuel tank walls, poor performance with clogged filters and injectors is common. *Also ethanol has a great affinity for water, and will attract moisture from the atmosphere. Water is heavier than gas so the water/ethanol molecule is dragged to the bottom of the tank and separates from the more buoyant fuel molecules. * This is called phase separation. *When this separation occurs you end up with a corrosive water/ethanol layer on the bottom of the tank, under what is now substandard fuel. *Water displaces gasoline and then pits and corrodes the metal surfaces causing premature wear on the fuel pump. *Water also reacts with various components in the fuel and forms acids, which corrode the injector tips as well. Water when sucked into an engine will shut it down. *It must be cleaned, and the oil changed. *However, a water/ethanol mixture causes a more serious problem, because instead of just shutting the engine down, the mixture can be partially combusted, but not effectively, which can damage the engine. *Over a period of time this mixture will cause excessive carbon deposits, which can wear on pistons and valves. We recommend that only "top tier" fuels be used, and if necessary a gasoline additive with "techron" be added, occasionally. *If possible, make sure you know your gasoline retailer and try to buy your gasoline from the same location as often as possible. *The best deal isn't always the cheapest deal." This is absurdity on its face. Almost all gasoline is delivered to retail stations from tank farms, where everyone's product is pretty much * exactly this same, other than additives dumped in to raise octane. You think "Shell" gasoline comes from Shell? How are you supposed to know if you are buying "top tier" gasoline, since what's in the tanks of the service stations could be almost anything.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Almost all gasoline is delivered to retail stations from tank farms, where everyone's product is pretty much exactly this same, Up here, it IS all the same.I know this for fact due to a close friend who trucks gas. I can see the flames coming now from the Dwarfs, doubting my validity again, after the " Tall Ships " thread. |
#3
posted to rec.boats
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Fuel Starvation?
wrote in message ... On Jul 21, 3:55 pm, HK wrote: DownTime wrote: Gene Kearns wrote: "Nothing in this chapter shall prohibit the selling of a consumer product which has both full and limited warranties if such warranties are clearly and conspicuously differentiated. " Most warranties are going to be fairly specific about the type of fuel you can use. If not, there would be people wanting to sue them over unsuccessfully using propane (or acetylene, or hydrogen) in a boat. The law was on your side.... it probably won't be for Downtime.... The full email is pasted below. I am curious to know if they, or any company can decide to change warranty terms 'on the fly'. I think I might be missing something here, time for a call to the dealer to clarify this. "To All BMW of Fort Myers Customers: We have been advised by BMWNA that with the release of E10 and E85 gasoline with ethanol, there is a need to advise customers that is very important to put quality gasoline into their vehicles. The sale of E10, blended ethanol fuel, is on the rise in the US as more states are mandating its use to improve air quality. Also promoting the growth of E10 allows the phase out of the current additive MTBE that has been found to contaminate ground water supplies. Even so, the amount of ethanol added to the gasoline could raise the alcohol level of the fuel and cause your vehicle to crank, but not start; stall out; and/or run rough. BMW has advised us that they will not warranty, or goodwill, necessary repairs due to bad gas or high alcohol content in the fuel. Some of the parts that could be damaged by poor fuel quality include fuel pumps (high pressure pumps as well), fuel filter, injectors, etc. The problems start because E10 is very effective solvent and it will attack varnish, gum, and resins: the sludge that can build up in fuel tanks. Once cleaned off the fuel tank walls, poor performance with clogged filters and injectors is common. Also ethanol has a great affinity for water, and will attract moisture from the atmosphere. Water is heavier than gas so the water/ethanol molecule is dragged to the bottom of the tank and separates from the more buoyant fuel molecules. This is called phase separation. When this separation occurs you end up with a corrosive water/ethanol layer on the bottom of the tank, under what is now substandard fuel. Water displaces gasoline and then pits and corrodes the metal surfaces causing premature wear on the fuel pump. Water also reacts with various components in the fuel and forms acids, which corrode the injector tips as well. Water when sucked into an engine will shut it down. It must be cleaned, and the oil changed. However, a water/ethanol mixture causes a more serious problem, because instead of just shutting the engine down, the mixture can be partially combusted, but not effectively, which can damage the engine. Over a period of time this mixture will cause excessive carbon deposits, which can wear on pistons and valves. We recommend that only "top tier" fuels be used, and if necessary a gasoline additive with "techron" be added, occasionally. If possible, make sure you know your gasoline retailer and try to buy your gasoline from the same location as often as possible. The best deal isn't always the cheapest deal." This is absurdity on its face. Almost all gasoline is delivered to retail stations from tank farms, where everyone's product is pretty much exactly this same, other than additives dumped in to raise octane. You think "Shell" gasoline comes from Shell? How are you supposed to know if you are buying "top tier" gasoline, since what's in the tanks of the service stations could be almost anything.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Almost all gasoline is delivered to retail stations from tank farms, where everyone's product is pretty much exactly this same, Up here, it IS all the same.I know this for fact due to a close friend who trucks gas. I can see the flames coming now from the Dwarfs, doubting my validity again, after the " Tall Ships " thread. Your validity is always under suspicion, WAFA, but in this case you are probably right. |
#4
posted to rec.boats
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Fuel Starvation?
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#6
posted to rec.boats
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Fuel Starvation?
"Eisboch" wrote in
: As for gasoline .... according to this chemist, it's all in the additives. Furthermore, he points out that crude from which gasoline is refined varies, even within a specific brand. What "additives"? Who adds it after the trucker, who doesn't have any way to add anything and doesn't carry anything to add it with, picks it up? The marina doesn't add anything. I've watched 'em. They did add a stick to see how deep it was in the tank. There wasn't anything on the stick except some water detector paste on the bottom that turns color if there's water in the tank. The trucks that carry gas from the dump here to the stations varies. There are a few trucks that LOOK like Exxon or Texaco with large signage on them to that effect. There are hundreds of trucks that have no markings at all because they belong to a couple of tankage companies who haul lots more than gas, one about a mile from my home.... So, where is all this wonderful "additives", which must be a thousand gallons in a 50,000 gallon underground tank, not some drop-in tablet that would dilute the gas a billion to one, now? Nonsense. Gas is gas and just like any other common commodity comes from the LOWEST BIDDER, whoever has gas the cheapest, today, on the commodity market. Notice what the brokers are selling! They sell GAS and DIESEL and BUNKER C and LUBE OIL. There is no commodity named SUNOCO SUPER BLEND on the commodity exchanges. It only exists in the consumer's mind...... ...............just like AMSOIL! |
#7
posted to rec.boats
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Fuel Starvation?
"Larry" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in : As for gasoline .... according to this chemist, it's all in the additives. Furthermore, he points out that crude from which gasoline is refined varies, even within a specific brand. What "additives"? Who adds it after the trucker, who doesn't have any way to add anything and doesn't carry anything to add it with, picks it up? The marina doesn't add anything. I've watched 'em. They did add a stick to see how deep it was in the tank. There wasn't anything on the stick except some water detector paste on the bottom that turns color if there's water in the tank. FWIW, the author of the article in the link I provided claims to be an employee of a major oil company. He says he is a chemist who works on their gasoline "additives". If he is legit ... why would an oil company have a PhD on their payroll if he didn't do anything? If you read the article, he acknowledges that gas is gas. Actually he says gas is not always refined from the same quality or type of crude, even within a certain "brand". He claims that what makes Shell gas ... Shell, or Mobil gas .... Mobil, or Chevron gas .... Chevron .... is the type of octane enhancing and deposit cleaning additives used by the various companies. Eisboch Eisboch |
#8
posted to rec.boats
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Fuel Starvation?
"Eisboch" wrote in
: FWIW, the author of the article in the link I provided claims to be an employee of a major oil company. He says he is a chemist who works on their gasoline "additives". If he is legit ... why would an oil company have a PhD on their payroll if he didn't do anything? If you read the article, he acknowledges that gas is gas. Actually he says gas is not always refined from the same quality or type of crude, even within a certain "brand". He claims that what makes Shell gas ... Shell, or Mobil gas .... Mobil, or Chevron gas .... Chevron .... is the type of octane enhancing and deposit cleaning additives used by the various companies. Eisboch Eisboch I didn't say additives don't exist. They ARE put in at the refinery....all refineries that adhere to the oil industry's standards, the ones that tell you it's SJ or CH-4 standard lube oil. All the companies that produce gas make it so they can all share the commodity as a cartel....oh, oh, can I say that word? The advertising is bull**** for the consumers, those idiots who just HAVE to buy oil with the checkered flag on the can or it's junk. ......and I'm sure there's plenty of non-standardized commodity floating in greasy tankers trekking across the oceans as we type..... .....some of those are heading for the Amsoil bottling plant...(c; |
#9
posted to rec.boats
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Fuel Starvation?
Gene Kearns wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:55:09 -0400, HK penned the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats: DownTime wrote: Gene Kearns wrote: "Nothing in this chapter shall prohibit the selling of a consumer product which has both full and limited warranties if such warranties are clearly and conspicuously differentiated. " Most warranties are going to be fairly specific about the type of fuel you can use. If not, there would be people wanting to sue them over unsuccessfully using propane (or acetylene, or hydrogen) in a boat. The law was on your side.... it probably won't be for Downtime.... The full email is pasted below. I am curious to know if they, or any company can decide to change warranty terms 'on the fly'. I think I might be missing something here, time for a call to the dealer to clarify this. "To All BMW of Fort Myers Customers: We have been advised by BMWNA that with the release of E10 and E85 gasoline with ethanol, there is a need to advise customers that is very important to put quality gasoline into their vehicles. The sale of E10, blended ethanol fuel, is on the rise in the US as more states are mandating its use to improve air quality. Also promoting the growth of E10 allows the phase out of the current additive MTBE that has been found to contaminate ground water supplies. Even so, the amount of ethanol added to the gasoline could raise the alcohol level of the fuel and cause your vehicle to crank, but not start; stall out; and/or run rough. BMW has advised us that they will not warranty, or goodwill, necessary repairs due to bad gas or high alcohol content in the fuel. Some of the parts that could be damaged by poor fuel quality include fuel pumps (high pressure pumps as well), fuel filter, injectors, etc. The problems start because E10 is very effective solvent and it will attack varnish, gum, and resins: the sludge that can build up in fuel tanks. Once cleaned off the fuel tank walls, poor performance with clogged filters and injectors is common. Also ethanol has a great affinity for water, and will attract moisture from the atmosphere. Water is heavier than gas so the water/ethanol molecule is dragged to the bottom of the tank and separates from the more buoyant fuel molecules. This is called phase separation. When this separation occurs you end up with a corrosive water/ethanol layer on the bottom of the tank, under what is now substandard fuel. Water displaces gasoline and then pits and corrodes the metal surfaces causing premature wear on the fuel pump. Water also reacts with various components in the fuel and forms acids, which corrode the injector tips as well. Water when sucked into an engine will shut it down. It must be cleaned, and the oil changed. However, a water/ethanol mixture causes a more serious problem, because instead of just shutting the engine down, the mixture can be partially combusted, but not effectively, which can damage the engine. Over a period of time this mixture will cause excessive carbon deposits, which can wear on pistons and valves. We recommend that only "top tier" fuels be used, and if necessary a gasoline additive with "techron" be added, occasionally. If possible, make sure you know your gasoline retailer and try to buy your gasoline from the same location as often as possible. The best deal isn't always the cheapest deal." This is absurdity on its face. Almost all gasoline is delivered to retail stations from tank farms, where everyone's product is pretty much exactly this same, other than additives dumped in to raise octane. Gasoline is just... gasoline..... until additives are added during filling the truck..... or including additives *at* the truck.... How are you supposed to know if you are buying "top tier" gasoline, since what's in the tanks of the service stations could be almost anything. http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html And there's nothing to disqualify gas from the big unnamed tank at the local gas tank farm. |
#10
posted to rec.boats
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Fuel Starvation?
On Jul 21, 7:00*pm, Gene Kearns
wrote: On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:55:09 -0400, HK penned the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats: DownTime wrote: Gene Kearns wrote: "Nothing in this chapter shall prohibit the selling of a consumer product which has both full and limited warranties if such warranties are clearly and conspicuously differentiated. " Most warranties are going to be fairly specific about the type of fuel you can use. If not, there would be people wanting to sue them over unsuccessfully using propane (or acetylene, or hydrogen) in a boat. The law was on your side.... it probably won't be for Downtime.... The full email is pasted below. I am curious to know if they, or any company can decide to change warranty terms 'on the fly'. I think I might be missing something here, time for a call to the dealer to clarify this. "To All BMW of Fort Myers Customers: We have been advised by BMWNA that with the release of E10 and E85 gasoline with ethanol, there is a need to advise customers that is very important to put quality gasoline into their vehicles. The sale of E10, blended ethanol fuel, is on the rise in the US as more states are mandating its use to improve air quality. *Also promoting the growth of E10 allows the phase out of the current additive MTBE that has been found to contaminate ground water supplies. *Even so, the amount of ethanol added to the gasoline could raise the alcohol level of the fuel and cause your vehicle to crank, but not start; stall out; and/or run rough. *BMW has advised us that they will not warranty, or goodwill, necessary repairs due to bad gas or high alcohol content in the fuel. Some of the parts that could be damaged by poor fuel quality include fuel pumps (high pressure pumps as well), fuel filter, injectors, etc. The problems start because E10 is very effective solvent and it will attack varnish, gum, and resins: *the sludge that can build up in fuel tanks. *Once cleaned off the fuel tank walls, poor performance with clogged filters and injectors is common. *Also ethanol has a great affinity for water, and will attract moisture from the atmosphere. Water is heavier than gas so the water/ethanol molecule is dragged to the bottom of the tank and separates from the more buoyant fuel molecules. * This is called phase separation. *When this separation occurs you end up with a corrosive water/ethanol layer on the bottom of the tank, under what is now substandard fuel. *Water displaces gasoline and then pits and corrodes the metal surfaces causing premature wear on the fuel pump. *Water also reacts with various components in the fuel and forms acids, which corrode the injector tips as well. Water when sucked into an engine will shut it down. *It must be cleaned, and the oil changed. *However, a water/ethanol mixture causes a more serious problem, because instead of just shutting the engine down, the mixture can be partially combusted, but not effectively, which can damage the engine. *Over a period of time this mixture will cause excessive carbon deposits, which can wear on pistons and valves. We recommend that only "top tier" fuels be used, and if necessary a gasoline additive with "techron" be added, occasionally. *If possible, make sure you know your gasoline retailer and try to buy your gasoline from the same location as often as possible. *The best deal isn't always the cheapest deal." This is absurdity on its face. Almost all gasoline is delivered to retail stations from tank farms, where everyone's product is pretty much *exactly this same, other than additives dumped in to raise octane. Gasoline is just... gasoline..... until additives are added during filling the truck..... or including additives *at* the truck.... How are you supposed to know if you are buying "top tier" gasoline, since what's in the tanks of the service stations could be almost anything. http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html -- The Somerset Refinery was included in the top tier list. http://www.somersetoil.com/Somerset.htm They sell to unnamed retailers. http://www.somersetoil.com/Marketing.htm |
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