DownTime wrote in news:ds-
:

By the way, I had also recently received an email notice from the BMW
dealership stating that use of ethanol products in my M3 could
contribute to invalidating the warranty.

Stay tuned...



FANTASTIC! You need to read this FEDERAL LAW very carefully!

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/.../warranty.shtm
FTC booklet to business....everyone should read it.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/ch50.html
The whole law...written in plain English you can understand.

You might be interested in reading 2302 (c) on:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15...2----000-.html
which tells them they CANNOT specify brand or trade name for anything
for your M3 unless they are willing to PROVIDE IT FOR THE LIFE OF THE
PRODUCT.

That's why your car manual doesn't force you to run only genuine BMW
lube oil at $39/quart.....That's against the law.

I'd like to see their stance on fuel tested in front of an
administrative law judge. That might be fun to watch. They CAN, by the
way, apply to the FTC for a waiver, but I bet this is just trying to
weasle out of the warranty and a waiver does not exist. Call the FTC
and tell them what BMW sent you and ask them if they gave BMW a waiver
from the Magnusson Moss Warranty Protection Act 15USC50 2302(c)
provision.....




I sent back a Yamaha GP1200 defective PWC in 1997 under 2304(a)(4) when
they couldn't or wouldn't fix its many problems. Yamaha's Lorrie
Combelick, the big cheeze in warranty service, told me, "Larry, there's
no way we're EVER going to take back that boat!", the last time she
talked to me. She was wrong!....(c; I returned it to the letter of the
law after dicking around with their crooked dealer all summer, here, and
simply returned their defective product for a full refund, by refusing
to pay for it to the credit company. We tried for months to get them to
sue us or ruin my spotless credit rating. My attorney wanted a new
beach house on the Isle of Palms. I had my eye on that pretty gold
colored Mercedes C-class sedan, at the time.....nuts.

15USC50 is not just a good idea....IT'S THE LAW!....(c;
It's why WalMart cheerfully refunds your money when the new toaster
croaks. Walmart is NOT your friend. They are following the law!
At somewhere around $1000, corporations think they are immune from the
law, choosing to bull**** and fight. They're not immune....

Gene Kearns wrote:
"Nothing in this chapter shall prohibit the selling of a consumer
product which has both full and limited warranties if such warranties
are clearly and conspicuously differentiated. "

Most warranties are going to be fairly specific about the type of fuel
you can use. If not, there would be people wanting to sue them over
unsuccessfully using propane (or acetylene, or hydrogen) in a boat.

The law was on your side.... it probably won't be for Downtime....


The full email is pasted below. I am curious to know if they, or any
company can decide to change warranty terms 'on the fly'. I think I
might be missing something here, time for a call to the dealer to
clarify this.


"To All BMW of Fort Myers Customers:


We have been advised by BMWNA that with the release of E10 and E85
gasoline with ethanol, there is a need to advise customers that is very
important to put quality gasoline into their vehicles.

The sale of E10, blended ethanol fuel, is on the rise in the US as more
states are mandating its use to improve air quality. Also promoting the
growth of E10 allows the phase out of the current additive MTBE that has
been found to contaminate ground water supplies. Even so, the amount of
ethanol added to the gasoline could raise the alcohol level of the fuel
and cause your vehicle to crank, but not start; stall out; and/or run
rough. BMW has advised us that they will not warranty, or goodwill,
necessary repairs due to bad gas or high alcohol content in the fuel.

Some of the parts that could be damaged by poor fuel quality include
fuel pumps (high pressure pumps as well), fuel filter, injectors, etc.
The problems start because E10 is very effective solvent and it will
attack varnish, gum, and resins: the sludge that can build up in fuel
tanks. Once cleaned off the fuel tank walls, poor performance with
clogged filters and injectors is common. Also ethanol has a great
affinity for water, and will attract moisture from the atmosphere.
Water is heavier than gas so the water/ethanol molecule is dragged to
the bottom of the tank and separates from the more buoyant fuel
molecules. This is called phase separation. When this separation
occurs you end up with a corrosive water/ethanol layer on the bottom of
the tank, under what is now substandard fuel. Water displaces gasoline
and then pits and corrodes the metal surfaces causing premature wear on
the fuel pump. Water also reacts with various components in the fuel
and forms acids, which corrode the injector tips as well.

Water when sucked into an engine will shut it down. It must be cleaned,
and the oil changed. However, a water/ethanol mixture causes a more
serious problem, because instead of just shutting the engine down, the
mixture can be partially combusted, but not effectively, which can
damage the engine. Over a period of time this mixture will cause
excessive carbon deposits, which can wear on pistons and valves.

We recommend that only "top tier" fuels be used, and if necessary a
gasoline additive with "techron" be added, occasionally. If possible,
make sure you know your gasoline retailer and try to buy your gasoline
from the same location as often as possible. The best deal isn't always
the cheapest deal."

DownTime wrote:
Gene Kearns wrote:
"Nothing in this chapter shall prohibit the selling of a consumer
product which has both full and limited warranties if such warranties
are clearly and conspicuously differentiated. "

Most warranties are going to be fairly specific about the type of fuel
you can use. If not, there would be people wanting to sue them over
unsuccessfully using propane (or acetylene, or hydrogen) in a boat.

The law was on your side.... it probably won't be for Downtime....


The full email is pasted below. I am curious to know if they, or any
company can decide to change warranty terms 'on the fly'. I think I
might be missing something here, time for a call to the dealer to
clarify this.


"To All BMW of Fort Myers Customers:


We have been advised by BMWNA that with the release of E10 and E85
gasoline with ethanol, there is a need to advise customers that is very
important to put quality gasoline into their vehicles.

The sale of E10, blended ethanol fuel, is on the rise in the US as more
states are mandating its use to improve air quality. Also promoting the
growth of E10 allows the phase out of the current additive MTBE that has
been found to contaminate ground water supplies. Even so, the amount of
ethanol added to the gasoline could raise the alcohol level of the fuel
and cause your vehicle to crank, but not start; stall out; and/or run
rough. BMW has advised us that they will not warranty, or goodwill,
necessary repairs due to bad gas or high alcohol content in the fuel.

Some of the parts that could be damaged by poor fuel quality include
fuel pumps (high pressure pumps as well), fuel filter, injectors, etc.
The problems start because E10 is very effective solvent and it will
attack varnish, gum, and resins: the sludge that can build up in fuel
tanks. Once cleaned off the fuel tank walls, poor performance with
clogged filters and injectors is common. Also ethanol has a great
affinity for water, and will attract moisture from the atmosphere. Water
is heavier than gas so the water/ethanol molecule is dragged to the
bottom of the tank and separates from the more buoyant fuel molecules.
This is called phase separation. When this separation occurs you end up
with a corrosive water/ethanol layer on the bottom of the tank, under
what is now substandard fuel. Water displaces gasoline and then pits
and corrodes the metal surfaces causing premature wear on the fuel
pump. Water also reacts with various components in the fuel and forms
acids, which corrode the injector tips as well.

Water when sucked into an engine will shut it down. It must be cleaned,
and the oil changed. However, a water/ethanol mixture causes a more
serious problem, because instead of just shutting the engine down, the
mixture can be partially combusted, but not effectively, which can
damage the engine. Over a period of time this mixture will cause
excessive carbon deposits, which can wear on pistons and valves.

We recommend that only "top tier" fuels be used, and if necessary a
gasoline additive with "techron" be added, occasionally. If possible,
make sure you know your gasoline retailer and try to buy your gasoline
from the same location as often as possible. The best deal isn't always
the cheapest deal."



This is absurdity on its face. Almost all gasoline is delivered to
retail stations from tank farms, where everyone's product is pretty much
exactly this same, other than additives dumped in to raise octane.

You think "Shell" gasoline comes from Shell?

How are you supposed to know if you are buying "top tier" gasoline,
since what's in the tanks of the service stations could be almost anything.

On Jul 21, 3:55*pm, HK wrote:
DownTime wrote:
Gene Kearns wrote:
"Nothing in this chapter shall prohibit the selling of a consumer
product which has both full and limited warranties if such warranties
are clearly and conspicuously differentiated. "

Most warranties are going to be fairly specific about the type of fuel
you can use. If not, there would be people wanting to sue them over
unsuccessfully using propane (or acetylene, or hydrogen) in a boat.

The law was on your side.... it probably won't be for Downtime....

The full email is pasted below. I am curious to know if they, or any
company can decide to change warranty terms 'on the fly'. I think I
might be missing something here, time for a call to the dealer to
clarify this.

"To All BMW of Fort Myers Customers:

We have been advised by BMWNA that with the release of E10 and E85
gasoline with ethanol, there is a need to advise customers that is very
important to put quality gasoline into their vehicles.

The sale of E10, blended ethanol fuel, is on the rise in the US as more
states are mandating its use to improve air quality. *Also promoting the
growth of E10 allows the phase out of the current additive MTBE that has
been found to contaminate ground water supplies. *Even so, the amount of
ethanol added to the gasoline could raise the alcohol level of the fuel
and cause your vehicle to crank, but not start; stall out; and/or run
rough. *BMW has advised us that they will not warranty, or goodwill,
necessary repairs due to bad gas or high alcohol content in the fuel.

Some of the parts that could be damaged by poor fuel quality include
fuel pumps (high pressure pumps as well), fuel filter, injectors, etc.
The problems start because E10 is very effective solvent and it will
attack varnish, gum, and resins: *the sludge that can build up in fuel
tanks. *Once cleaned off the fuel tank walls, poor performance with
clogged filters and injectors is common. *Also ethanol has a great
affinity for water, and will attract moisture from the atmosphere. Water
is heavier than gas so the water/ethanol molecule is dragged to the
bottom of the tank and separates from the more buoyant fuel molecules. *
This is called phase separation. *When this separation occurs you end up
with a corrosive water/ethanol layer on the bottom of the tank, under
what is now substandard fuel. *Water displaces gasoline and then pits
and corrodes the metal surfaces causing premature wear on the fuel
pump. *Water also reacts with various components in the fuel and forms
acids, which corrode the injector tips as well.

Water when sucked into an engine will shut it down. *It must be cleaned,
and the oil changed. *However, a water/ethanol mixture causes a more
serious problem, because instead of just shutting the engine down, the
mixture can be partially combusted, but not effectively, which can
damage the engine. *Over a period of time this mixture will cause
excessive carbon deposits, which can wear on pistons and valves.

We recommend that only "top tier" fuels be used, and if necessary a
gasoline additive with "techron" be added, occasionally. *If possible,
make sure you know your gasoline retailer and try to buy your gasoline
from the same location as often as possible. *The best deal isn't always
the cheapest deal."

This is absurdity on its face. Almost all gasoline is delivered to
retail stations from tank farms, where everyone's product is pretty much
* exactly this same, other than additives dumped in to raise octane.

You think "Shell" gasoline comes from Shell?

How are you supposed to know if you are buying "top tier" gasoline,
since what's in the tanks of the service stations could be almost anything.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Almost all gasoline is delivered to
retail stations from tank farms, where everyone's product is pretty
much exactly this same,

Up here, it IS all the same.I know this for fact due to a close friend
who trucks gas.
I can see the flames coming now from the Dwarfs, doubting my validity
again, after the " Tall Ships " thread.

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:55:09 -0400, HK penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

DownTime wrote:
Gene Kearns wrote:
"Nothing in this chapter shall prohibit the selling of a consumer
product which has both full and limited warranties if such warranties
are clearly and conspicuously differentiated. "

Most warranties are going to be fairly specific about the type of fuel
you can use. If not, there would be people wanting to sue them over
unsuccessfully using propane (or acetylene, or hydrogen) in a boat.

The law was on your side.... it probably won't be for Downtime....

The full email is pasted below. I am curious to know if they, or any
company can decide to change warranty terms 'on the fly'. I think I
might be missing something here, time for a call to the dealer to
clarify this.


"To All BMW of Fort Myers Customers:


We have been advised by BMWNA that with the release of E10 and E85
gasoline with ethanol, there is a need to advise customers that is very
important to put quality gasoline into their vehicles.

The sale of E10, blended ethanol fuel, is on the rise in the US as more
states are mandating its use to improve air quality. Also promoting the
growth of E10 allows the phase out of the current additive MTBE that has
been found to contaminate ground water supplies. Even so, the amount of
ethanol added to the gasoline could raise the alcohol level of the fuel
and cause your vehicle to crank, but not start; stall out; and/or run
rough. BMW has advised us that they will not warranty, or goodwill,
necessary repairs due to bad gas or high alcohol content in the fuel.

Some of the parts that could be damaged by poor fuel quality include
fuel pumps (high pressure pumps as well), fuel filter, injectors, etc.
The problems start because E10 is very effective solvent and it will
attack varnish, gum, and resins: the sludge that can build up in fuel
tanks. Once cleaned off the fuel tank walls, poor performance with
clogged filters and injectors is common. Also ethanol has a great
affinity for water, and will attract moisture from the atmosphere. Water
is heavier than gas so the water/ethanol molecule is dragged to the
bottom of the tank and separates from the more buoyant fuel molecules.
This is called phase separation. When this separation occurs you end up
with a corrosive water/ethanol layer on the bottom of the tank, under
what is now substandard fuel. Water displaces gasoline and then pits
and corrodes the metal surfaces causing premature wear on the fuel
pump. Water also reacts with various components in the fuel and forms
acids, which corrode the injector tips as well.

Water when sucked into an engine will shut it down. It must be cleaned,
and the oil changed. However, a water/ethanol mixture causes a more
serious problem, because instead of just shutting the engine down, the
mixture can be partially combusted, but not effectively, which can
damage the engine. Over a period of time this mixture will cause
excessive carbon deposits, which can wear on pistons and valves.

We recommend that only "top tier" fuels be used, and if necessary a
gasoline additive with "techron" be added, occasionally. If possible,
make sure you know your gasoline retailer and try to buy your gasoline
from the same location as often as possible. The best deal isn't always
the cheapest deal."


This is absurdity on its face. Almost all gasoline is delivered to
retail stations from tank farms, where everyone's product is pretty much
exactly this same, other than additives dumped in to raise octane.

Gasoline is just... gasoline..... until additives are added during
filling the truck..... or including additives *at* the truck....

How are you supposed to know if you are buying "top tier" gasoline,
since what's in the tanks of the service stations could be almost anything.

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html



And there's nothing to disqualify gas from the big unnamed tank at the
local gas tank farm.

On Jul 21, 7:00*pm, Gene Kearns
wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:55:09 -0400, HK penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:



DownTime wrote:
Gene Kearns wrote:
"Nothing in this chapter shall prohibit the selling of a consumer
product which has both full and limited warranties if such warranties
are clearly and conspicuously differentiated. "

Most warranties are going to be fairly specific about the type of fuel
you can use. If not, there would be people wanting to sue them over
unsuccessfully using propane (or acetylene, or hydrogen) in a boat.

The law was on your side.... it probably won't be for Downtime....

The full email is pasted below. I am curious to know if they, or any
company can decide to change warranty terms 'on the fly'. I think I
might be missing something here, time for a call to the dealer to
clarify this.

"To All BMW of Fort Myers Customers:

We have been advised by BMWNA that with the release of E10 and E85
gasoline with ethanol, there is a need to advise customers that is very
important to put quality gasoline into their vehicles.

The sale of E10, blended ethanol fuel, is on the rise in the US as more
states are mandating its use to improve air quality. *Also promoting the
growth of E10 allows the phase out of the current additive MTBE that has
been found to contaminate ground water supplies. *Even so, the amount of
ethanol added to the gasoline could raise the alcohol level of the fuel
and cause your vehicle to crank, but not start; stall out; and/or run
rough. *BMW has advised us that they will not warranty, or goodwill,
necessary repairs due to bad gas or high alcohol content in the fuel.

Some of the parts that could be damaged by poor fuel quality include
fuel pumps (high pressure pumps as well), fuel filter, injectors, etc.
The problems start because E10 is very effective solvent and it will
attack varnish, gum, and resins: *the sludge that can build up in fuel
tanks. *Once cleaned off the fuel tank walls, poor performance with
clogged filters and injectors is common. *Also ethanol has a great
affinity for water, and will attract moisture from the atmosphere. Water
is heavier than gas so the water/ethanol molecule is dragged to the
bottom of the tank and separates from the more buoyant fuel molecules. *
This is called phase separation. *When this separation occurs you end up
with a corrosive water/ethanol layer on the bottom of the tank, under
what is now substandard fuel. *Water displaces gasoline and then pits
and corrodes the metal surfaces causing premature wear on the fuel
pump. *Water also reacts with various components in the fuel and forms
acids, which corrode the injector tips as well.

Water when sucked into an engine will shut it down. *It must be cleaned,
and the oil changed. *However, a water/ethanol mixture causes a more
serious problem, because instead of just shutting the engine down, the
mixture can be partially combusted, but not effectively, which can
damage the engine. *Over a period of time this mixture will cause
excessive carbon deposits, which can wear on pistons and valves.

We recommend that only "top tier" fuels be used, and if necessary a
gasoline additive with "techron" be added, occasionally. *If possible,
make sure you know your gasoline retailer and try to buy your gasoline
from the same location as often as possible. *The best deal isn't always
the cheapest deal."

This is absurdity on its face. Almost all gasoline is delivered to
retail stations from tank farms, where everyone's product is pretty much
*exactly this same, other than additives dumped in to raise octane.

Gasoline is just... gasoline..... until additives are added during
filling the truck..... or including additives *at* the truck....

How are you supposed to know if you are buying "top tier" gasoline,
since what's in the tanks of the service stations could be almost anything.

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

--


The Somerset Refinery was included in the top tier list.

http://www.somersetoil.com/Somerset.htm

They sell to unnamed retailers.

http://www.somersetoil.com/Marketing.htm

Gene Kearns wrote in
:

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

WOW! Turkey Hill Minit Markets made the list but HESS OIL didn't!

I wonder how much Turkey Hill Minit Markets had to pay to get on this list?

Where is Turkey Hill Minit Markets' main refinery, anyways??

Ah, I see it! It's right next to the AMSOIL REFINERY!!!!

"DownTime" wrote in message
. ..
Gene Kearns wrote:
"Nothing in this chapter shall prohibit the selling of a consumer
product which has both full and limited warranties if such warranties
are clearly and conspicuously differentiated. "

Most warranties are going to be fairly specific about the type of fuel
you can use. If not, there would be people wanting to sue them over
unsuccessfully using propane (or acetylene, or hydrogen) in a boat.

The law was on your side.... it probably won't be for Downtime....


The full email is pasted below. I am curious to know if they, or any
company can decide to change warranty terms 'on the fly'. I think I might
be missing something here, time for a call to the dealer to clarify this.


"To All BMW of Fort Myers Customers:


We have been advised by BMWNA that with the release of E10 and E85
gasoline with ethanol, there is a need to advise customers that is very
important to put quality gasoline into their vehicles.

The sale of E10, blended ethanol fuel, is on the rise in the US as more
states are mandating its use to improve air quality. Also promoting the
growth of E10 allows the phase out of the current additive MTBE that has
been found to contaminate ground water supplies. Even so, the amount of
ethanol added to the gasoline could raise the alcohol level of the fuel
and cause your vehicle to crank, but not start; stall out; and/or run
rough. BMW has advised us that they will not warranty, or goodwill,
necessary repairs due to bad gas or high alcohol content in the fuel.

Some of the parts that could be damaged by poor fuel quality include fuel
pumps (high pressure pumps as well), fuel filter, injectors, etc. The
problems start because E10 is very effective solvent and it will attack
varnish, gum, and resins: the sludge that can build up in fuel tanks.
Once cleaned off the fuel tank walls, poor performance with clogged
filters and injectors is common. Also ethanol has a great affinity for
water, and will attract moisture from the atmosphere. Water is heavier
than gas so the water/ethanol molecule is dragged to the bottom of the
tank and separates from the more buoyant fuel molecules. This is called
phase separation. When this separation occurs you end up with a corrosive
water/ethanol layer on the bottom of the tank, under what is now
substandard fuel. Water displaces gasoline and then pits and corrodes the
metal surfaces causing premature wear on the fuel pump. Water also reacts
with various components in the fuel and forms acids, which corrode the
injector tips as well.

Water when sucked into an engine will shut it down. It must be cleaned,
and the oil changed. However, a water/ethanol mixture causes a more
serious problem, because instead of just shutting the engine down, the
mixture can be partially combusted, but not effectively, which can damage
the engine. Over a period of time this mixture will cause excessive
carbon deposits, which can wear on pistons and valves.

We recommend that only "top tier" fuels be used, and if necessary a
gasoline additive with "techron" be added, occasionally. If possible,
make sure you know your gasoline retailer and try to buy your gasoline
from the same location as often as possible. The best deal isn't always
the cheapest deal."

I predict a sharp decline in BMW sales in the U S of A.

DownTime wrote in
:

The full email is pasted below. I am curious to know if they, or any
company can decide to change warranty terms 'on the fly'.

Nope...Read the FTC manual. That printed warranty they gave you with the
car is a binding contract between you for the duration of the warranty
period. They're stuck with it.

A good example of that is my experience with a set of Goodyear tires from
Wally World. I bought the "lifetime warranty" Wally learned his lesson and
no longer offers after having to eat so many of Goodyears crappy radials.
They get bulges in them just sitting there with 32 PSI of atmosphere
inside. I went through several sets of free tires before deciding this was
crazy as they could explode and kill me, so put Kumho radials on it from a
local large tire store and have had zero problems on Kumho tires.

One of the auto dept managers faked an attempt to change my $9.76/tire
extended lifetime-of-the-tread warranty...full replacement on failures, not
prorating nonsense. My offer of a neatly printed copy of 15USC50 2301
et.al. was refused and that ended that nonsense. I had a contract!

See ya in court!

DownTime wrote in
:

We recommend that only "top tier" fuels be used, and if necessary a
gasoline additive with "techron" be added, occasionally. If possible,
make sure you know your gasoline retailer and try to buy your gasoline
from the same location as often as possible. The best deal isn't always
the cheapest deal."



PRECISELY why my new Smart car MUST be a DIESEL.....

Looks like I'll have to go to Canada to get one....damn.

While we're talking about cars, this official document....not your dealer's
bull****....is a list of the cars YOU are allowed to IMPORT from anyplace
that are "non-conforming" vehicles. Notice how all the Smart cars back to
2004 are listed....MUCH to my Smart dealer's dismay after telling me I
won't be able to import a Smart diesel into the USA from Canada...pure
bull****.

http://www.epa.gov/EPA-IMPACT/2007/S...-27/i19118.htm

a most interesting document if you are interested in importing something to
bypass dealer profit margins.