At one time I asked Bill Grannis if he had a recommendation on which oil I
should use in my new Yamaha 4 stroke. He responded with information on
TC-W3 approved oils which are used in a 2-stroke. He quickly realized the
confusion and provided another answer applicable to four stroke engines.
Please note that neither Bill nor I recommended using a TC-W3 oil in a four
stroke engine.

Here is part of his most informative answer:

*****************************************
On 4-stroke oils, there is a fairly new certification system endorsed by
the
oil blenders and the 4-stroke manufacturers, called "four-stroke,
water-cooled" or FC-W. Because an outboard may run in sal****er, sit unused
for long periods of time, and runs high rpms for hours on end unlike a car
motor, the industry wanted a spec for approved outboard oils. New owners
manuals now state what oil grades to use and say an FC-W certified oil if
you don't use an OEM lubricant. If you are into synthetics, surprisingly
the
Amsoil 4-stroke oil is FC-W approved unlike their 2-stroke oils which are
not TC-W3 approved. Here is more info on the FC-W lubes:

http://nmma.org/certification/programs/oils/fc-w.asp
**********************************************

The link provides some alternatives for those buying oil for four stroke
marine engines.

Thanks again to Bill Grannis!
--
John *H*

John H. wrote in
:

On 4-stroke oils, there is a fairly new certification system endorsed
by the
oil blenders and the 4-stroke manufacturers, called "four-stroke,
water-cooled" or FC-W. Because an outboard may run in sal****er, sit
unused for long periods of time, and runs high rpms for hours on end
unlike a car motor, the industry wanted a spec for approved outboard
oils. New owners manuals now state what oil grades to use and say an
FC-W certified oil if you don't use an OEM lubricant. If you are into
synthetics, surprisingly the
Amsoil 4-stroke oil is FC-W approved unlike their 2-stroke oils which
are not TC-W3 approved. Here is more info on the FC-W lubes:

http://nmma.org/certification/programs/oils/fc-w.asp
**********************************************



We can't have you boys just dropping by WalMart and buying Quaker State
to put in your 4-strokers, like the rest of the world. We just HAVE to
make an NMMA-friendly spec of oils only the damned dealers will be
selling for $20/gallon, like the OEM crap.

What nonsense. More sales gimmicks. The only reason they don't tell you
you MUST use their OEM oils is the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Protection Act
(15USC50 section 2304) which states that if they tell you you MUST use
OEM consumables, then they MUST PROVIDE those consumables at no cost for
the life of the item, no matter what item it is. That puts a stop to
being forced to buy Mr Goodwrench's oil for your Chevy to keep the
warranty working.

Sure would like to take two brand new Hondas on the back of a boat, put
Rotella T diesel oil in one of them and this overpriced **** in the other
and track everything that goes wrong with both of them for the next
20,000 hours of heavy use on some water taxi. I bet you'd never tell the
difference.


Amsoil....

Amsoil is a SCAM! Call 'em. Ask 'em where the REFINERY or CHEMICAL
PLANT is that AMSOIL OWNS. Ask for the address of that factory where
they make it. The only thing Amsoil owns is a BOTTLING PLANT! You can
see it on Google Earth in Superior, Wisconsin.

"Facilities
THE AMSOIL CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS, MANUFACTURING PLANT, AND MAIN
DISTRIBUTION CENTER are located in Superior, Wisconsin, with several
regional warehouses strategically located throughout North America and
overseas. These facilities cover a total of nearly 700,000 square feet.

The state-of-the-art lubricant production plant contains materials
blending and bulk storage facilities, as well as highspeed bottling lines
and packaging equipment. The main warehouse serves as the hub of a global
distribution network; bottles, cases, drums and totes bearing the AMSOIL
label are shipped worldwide. Capacity is geared to meet projected market
demands decades away.

The AMSOIL administrative functions are centrally located and outfitted
with the latest in communications and information processing equipment.
The entire complex is staffed by a cooperative, knowledgeable and well-
disciplined team of approximately 300 employees."

http://www.amsoil.com/distribution_centers_map.aspx
Here ya go. The address of every one of their "distribution centers" is
on this map. Look down on 'em from Google Earth and see if you see any
CHEMICAL FACTORY anywhere. They're all just WAREHOUSES!

Scam written all over it....."Just believe", it's like a goddamned cult.

Man it's raining HARD outside!

Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

On 4-stroke oils, there is a fairly new certification system endorsed
by the
oil blenders and the 4-stroke manufacturers, called "four-stroke,
water-cooled" or FC-W. Because an outboard may run in sal****er, sit
unused for long periods of time, and runs high rpms for hours on end
unlike a car motor, the industry wanted a spec for approved outboard
oils. New owners manuals now state what oil grades to use and say an
FC-W certified oil if you don't use an OEM lubricant. If you are into
synthetics, surprisingly the
Amsoil 4-stroke oil is FC-W approved unlike their 2-stroke oils which
are not TC-W3 approved. Here is more info on the FC-W lubes:

http://nmma.org/certification/programs/oils/fc-w.asp
**********************************************



We can't have you boys just dropping by WalMart and buying Quaker State
to put in your 4-strokers, like the rest of the world. We just HAVE to
make an NMMA-friendly spec of oils only the damned dealers will be
selling for $20/gallon, like the OEM crap.

What nonsense. More sales gimmicks. The only reason they don't tell you
you MUST use their OEM oils is the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Protection Act
(15USC50 section 2304) which states that if they tell you you MUST use
OEM consumables, then they MUST PROVIDE those consumables at no cost for
the life of the item, no matter what item it is. That puts a stop to
being forced to buy Mr Goodwrench's oil for your Chevy to keep the
warranty working.

Sure would like to take two brand new Hondas on the back of a boat, put
Rotella T diesel oil in one of them and this overpriced **** in the other
and track everything that goes wrong with both of them for the next
20,000 hours of heavy use on some water taxi. I bet you'd never tell the
difference.


Amsoil....

Amsoil is a SCAM! Call 'em. Ask 'em where the REFINERY or CHEMICAL
PLANT is that AMSOIL OWNS. Ask for the address of that factory where
they make it. The only thing Amsoil owns is a BOTTLING PLANT! You can
see it on Google Earth in Superior, Wisconsin.

"Facilities
THE AMSOIL CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS, MANUFACTURING PLANT, AND MAIN
DISTRIBUTION CENTER are located in Superior, Wisconsin, with several
regional warehouses strategically located throughout North America and
overseas. These facilities cover a total of nearly 700,000 square feet.

The state-of-the-art lubricant production plant contains materials
blending and bulk storage facilities, as well as highspeed bottling lines
and packaging equipment. The main warehouse serves as the hub of a global
distribution network; bottles, cases, drums and totes bearing the AMSOIL
label are shipped worldwide. Capacity is geared to meet projected market
demands decades away.

The AMSOIL administrative functions are centrally located and outfitted
with the latest in communications and information processing equipment.
The entire complex is staffed by a cooperative, knowledgeable and well-
disciplined team of approximately 300 employees."

http://www.amsoil.com/distribution_centers_map.aspx
Here ya go. The address of every one of their "distribution centers" is
on this map. Look down on 'em from Google Earth and see if you see any
CHEMICAL FACTORY anywhere. They're all just WAREHOUSES!

Scam written all over it....."Just believe", it's like a goddamned cult.

Man it's raining HARD outside!


The fact that some wags came up with a new "certification" in order to
sell more expensive oil doesn't mean the oils they are trying to sell
are any better than anyone else's oils.

What do the oil manufacturers put into that fancy oil to meet the new spec?

Nothing they weren't already putting in it.

HK wrote in
:

What do the oil manufacturers put into that fancy oil to meet the new
spec?

Nothing they weren't already putting in it.



I've been trying to find out what Amsoil puts in.....and where they put it
in it. You'd think it'd be in giant tanks in a huge oil facility, not
dumped into a 55 gallon drum of oil from the lowest bidder. Such a
facility still illudes me. It's nowhere....

How ya been, Harry?

Larry wrote:
HK wrote in
:

What do the oil manufacturers put into that fancy oil to meet the new
spec?

Nothing they weren't already putting in it.



I've been trying to find out what Amsoil puts in.....and where they put it
in it. You'd think it'd be in giant tanks in a huge oil facility, not
dumped into a 55 gallon drum of oil from the lowest bidder. Such a
facility still illudes me. It's nowhere....

How ya been, Harry?


He's the same as always and still worth ignoring. Join the club - it
makes the group so much nicer.

On May 28, 8:48*pm, DK wrote:
Larry wrote:
HK wrote in
:

What do the oil manufacturers put into that fancy oil to meet the new
spec?

Nothing they weren't already putting in it.

I've been trying to find out what Amsoil puts in.....and where they put it
in it. *You'd think it'd be in giant tanks in a huge oil facility, not
dumped into a 55 gallon drum of oil from the lowest bidder. *Such a
facility still illudes me. *It's nowhere....

How ya been, Harry?

He's the same as always and still worth ignoring. *Join the club - it
makes the group so much nicer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Harry calling a certified mechanic a "wag"......that's rich!

Larry wrote:
HK wrote in
:

What do the oil manufacturers put into that fancy oil to meet the new
spec?

Nothing they weren't already putting in it.



I've been trying to find out what Amsoil puts in.....and where they put it
in it. You'd think it'd be in giant tanks in a huge oil facility, not
dumped into a 55 gallon drum of oil from the lowest bidder. Such a
facility still illudes me. It's nowhere....

How ya been, Harry?


Not bad, Larry. Here, I just mostly watch the antics.

HK wrote in news:_t-
:

Not bad, Larry. Here, I just mostly watch the antics.



I noticed you've cooled off from the "old days"....(c;

I haven't been watching wrecked.boats for some time, but got bored so added
a few old groups I used to watch. It hasn't changed much in all these
years...scary if your motor is dead and some of them approach you on the
river.

No boats, tonight. Thunder/lightning/raining like hell earlier...

HK wrote in news:HbmdndM9-
:

The fact that some wags came up with a new "certification" in order to
sell more expensive oil doesn't mean the oils they are trying to sell
are any better than anyone else's oils.



From the pdf file at nmma.....

Here's what it's all about:

"IV. IMPROPER USE OF REGISTERED MARK

Licensed Oils. For oils displaying an improper label or unauthorized
labeling data, NMMA will inform the Marketer to cease and desist the
violation and will request verification that the violation has been
corrected. The Marketer will be required to provide a copy of all labels
reflecting the correction of the registered mark violation. If the
violation has not been corrected in reasonable time, NMMA may terminate
the license agreement.

Non-Licensed Oils. For oils not licensed by NMMA and displaying the
NMMA trademark or claiming to meet the NMMA FC-W™ specification, NMMA
will
inform the Marketer to cease and desist the unauthorized labeling
immediately and will take such action as appropriate under the
circumstances.

V. ENFORCEMENT AND CONFORMANCE TO LICENSE REQUIREMENTS

If supporting evidence demonstrates that an FC-W™ certified oil does not
meet the technical requirements (specifications) of FC-W™ or has
documented field performance problems, NMMA will attempt to work directly
with the marketer to remedy the nonconformity and to make such additional
corrective actions as appropriate on a voluntary basis. In the event the
matter cannot be satisfactory resolved, NMMA will terminate the license
and take other action as is appropriate under the circumstances."

Notice it talks about MARKETERS, not oil manufacturing companies, like
Texaco or BP. What do MARKETERS have to do with making oil that's
special?? The only thing I know MARKETERS do is to add profit to cost
and ship product they don't manufacture.

Amsoil is a MARKETER. Texaco is a manufacturer....(c;

On Thu, 29 May 2008 00:12:22 +0000, Larry wrote:

John H. wrote in
:

On 4-stroke oils, there is a fairly new certification system endorsed
by the
oil blenders and the 4-stroke manufacturers, called "four-stroke,
water-cooled" or FC-W. Because an outboard may run in sal****er, sit
unused for long periods of time, and runs high rpms for hours on end
unlike a car motor, the industry wanted a spec for approved outboard
oils. New owners manuals now state what oil grades to use and say an
FC-W certified oil if you don't use an OEM lubricant. If you are into
synthetics, surprisingly the
Amsoil 4-stroke oil is FC-W approved unlike their 2-stroke oils which
are not TC-W3 approved. Here is more info on the FC-W lubes:

http://nmma.org/certification/programs/oils/fc-w.asp
**********************************************



We can't have you boys just dropping by WalMart and buying Quaker State
to put in your 4-strokers, like the rest of the world. We just HAVE to
make an NMMA-friendly spec of oils only the damned dealers will be
selling for $20/gallon, like the OEM crap.

What nonsense. More sales gimmicks. The only reason they don't tell you
you MUST use their OEM oils is the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Protection Act
(15USC50 section 2304) which states that if they tell you you MUST use
OEM consumables, then they MUST PROVIDE those consumables at no cost for
the life of the item, no matter what item it is. That puts a stop to
being forced to buy Mr Goodwrench's oil for your Chevy to keep the
warranty working.

Sure would like to take two brand new Hondas on the back of a boat, put
Rotella T diesel oil in one of them and this overpriced **** in the other
and track everything that goes wrong with both of them for the next
20,000 hours of heavy use on some water taxi. I bet you'd never tell the
difference.


Amsoil....

Amsoil is a SCAM! Call 'em. Ask 'em where the REFINERY or CHEMICAL
PLANT is that AMSOIL OWNS. Ask for the address of that factory where
they make it. The only thing Amsoil owns is a BOTTLING PLANT! You can
see it on Google Earth in Superior, Wisconsin.

"Facilities
THE AMSOIL CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS, MANUFACTURING PLANT, AND MAIN
DISTRIBUTION CENTER are located in Superior, Wisconsin, with several
regional warehouses strategically located throughout North America and
overseas. These facilities cover a total of nearly 700,000 square feet.

The state-of-the-art lubricant production plant contains materials
blending and bulk storage facilities, as well as highspeed bottling lines
and packaging equipment. The main warehouse serves as the hub of a global
distribution network; bottles, cases, drums and totes bearing the AMSOIL
label are shipped worldwide. Capacity is geared to meet projected market
demands decades away.

The AMSOIL administrative functions are centrally located and outfitted
with the latest in communications and information processing equipment.
The entire complex is staffed by a cooperative, knowledgeable and well-
disciplined team of approximately 300 employees."

http://www.amsoil.com/distribution_centers_map.aspx
Here ya go. The address of every one of their "distribution centers" is
on this map. Look down on 'em from Google Earth and see if you see any
CHEMICAL FACTORY anywhere. They're all just WAREHOUSES!

Scam written all over it....."Just believe", it's like a goddamned cult.

Man it's raining HARD outside!

Hey, I'm just confused enough to put Yamaha oil in my Yamaha. They can't
say I did something bad then!

In fact, I'll probably let the Yamaha service man put Yamaha oil in my
Yamaha. Then everyone'll be happy!
--
John *H*