Chuck,
Whomever said they come here to "start trouble" is just being honest. The
majority of the regulars come here to argue their favorite cause and try to
make their opponents looks foolish, ignorant of just to get his goat.

The regulars who come here to discuss boating are few and far in-between,
they have been chased away ages ago.



Without going waaaay back, we're still runing a 3:1 ratio of on topic *threads*
vs.
off topic threads. Of the last 59 threads initiated in rec.boats, 45 had some
direct relevance to boating and 14 did not.

Problem is in the number of posts.

Example:

I.M. Uhground posts: "Where is the secondary fuel filter on my Spitz and Putz
inboard?"

Hal P Fulwrench replies: "Look under the second framus past the diogenator."

End of thread, two posts.

Example two:

Left wing Louie posts: "Bush is a war criminal!"

Right wing Rickie replies:"No, he's a hero and you liberals are all
traitors........"

And 450 posts follow. 225 from the right, 225 from the left, with insults and
bad manners split equally between the pair. End of thread nowhere in
sight.......


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Rec.boats isn't purely a spectator sport.

There is a disturbing lack of civility in many of the discussions, both OT
and
ON.
That's a greater problem than the fact that the conversation drifts off
topic.

We have at least one poster who takes pride in the fact that he only comes
here
to
cause trouble, and then immediately blames that on individuals holding
opposite
philosophical viewpoints.

It is a bit puzzling how, so often, the people who post the loudest
protests
about the signal to noise ratio and the lack of significant boating
content in
the NG never contribute any boating content *to* the group.

The content of the group is configured by what we all put in- what we take
out
or choose to filter has no effect on the overall character of the group.

Aren't enough boating discussions? Start one.

Most of the on topic posts are done by newbie's stumbling in. They have no
idea rec.boats is all about politics. The regulars are the ones who turn
the on topic posts into off topic posts and start the majority of the off
topic threads.

How many of the 45 on-topic threads did you originate?

The regulars can't complain about a lack of on-topic threads if they don't
start any.

You know Chuck you act like you are a saint in this whole mess. And that is the
furthest thing from the truth. Granted, you post one or two boating related items, but
the far majority of your posts are political. You and Harry have been involved in the
mudslinging and OT political posts long before most of us have been here.

Yes, I admitted I come here for the politics. I never said, however, that I come here
to cause trouble and I challenge you to find where I said that....because I did not.

Move out of that glass house before you start throwing stones.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Most of the on topic posts are done by newbie's stumbling in. They have no
idea rec.boats is all about politics. The regulars are the ones who turn
the on topic posts into off topic posts and start the majority of the off
topic threads.

How many of the 45 on-topic threads did you originate?

The regulars can't complain about a lack of on-topic threads if they don't
start any.

Yes, I admitted I come here for the politics. I never said, however, that I
come here
to cause trouble and I challenge you to find where I said that....because I
did not.

To paraphrase Carly Simon: You're so vain, you probably think each post is
about you........

Challenge back to you. Where did I say that "Jim stated he is only here to
cause trouble"? Without that, your concern is completely ridiculous. I don't
recall mentioning you by name at all. What makes you think I was even referring
to you? Why would I?

You know Chuck you act like you are a saint in this whole mess. And that is
the
furthest thing from the truth. Granted, you post one or two boating related
items, but
the far majority of your posts are political. You and Harry have been
involved in the
mudslinging and OT political posts long before most of us have been
here.

I don't sling much mud, and whatever direction the NG takes is up to the
majority of participants. It isn't determined by one or two people. Personally,
if you want to talk boats, I can participate in most discussions (except I
don't know much about outboards, sailing, carbs, and a few other subjects). If
you want to talk politics, I can do that too.

For every Yin there's a Yang. Blaming the political threads solely on the left
or the right is ridiculous. Follow one through- typically goes
l,r,l,r,l,r,l,r,l,r, etc. Only difference most of the time is who goes first,
and over the long run that tends to be about 50/50.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Yes, I admitted I come here for the politics. I never said, however, that I
come here
to cause trouble and I challenge you to find where I said that....because I
did not.

To paraphrase Carly Simon: You're so vain, you probably think each post is
about you........

Challenge back to you. Where did I say that "Jim stated he is only here to
cause trouble"? Without that, your concern is completely ridiculous. I don't
recall mentioning you by name at all. What makes you think I was even referring
to you? Why would I?

Yeah, you were sure to originally phrase it so you had an out. You took it. Nice move
Chuck.


You know Chuck you act like you are a saint in this whole mess. And that is
the
furthest thing from the truth. Granted, you post one or two boating related
items, but
the far majority of your posts are political. You and Harry have been
involved in the
mudslinging and OT political posts long before most of us have been
here.

I don't sling much mud, and whatever direction the NG takes is up to the
majority of participants. It isn't determined by one or two people. Personally,
if you want to talk boats, I can participate in most discussions (except I
don't know much about outboards, sailing, carbs, and a few other subjects). If
you want to talk politics, I can do that too.

For every Yin there's a Yang. Blaming the political threads solely on the left
or the right is ridiculous. Follow one through- typically goes
l,r,l,r,l,r,l,r,l,r, etc. Only difference most of the time is who goes first,
and over the long run that tends to be about 50/50.



Where did I blame the political threads solely on the left or the right?

I blamed you for throwing stones in your glass house.

Where did I blame the political threads solely on the left or the right?

When you said that Gould, Harry, and jps
had screwed up the newsgroup? When you said that liberals brought "filth and
disrespect" to this public forum?


I blamed you for throwing stones in your glass house.

Jim, I'll proudly compare my ratio of personal attacks and insults vs. civil
discussion with your own, any day.

Why do you try to make this personal all the time? It isn't. You're nothing in
my life- a (constantly changing, often bogus) name on a screen. I should be
nothing in yours. Discussions should center on ideas, not the imagined personal
defects of people we don't know and will never meet.
IMO.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Where did I blame the political threads solely on the left or the right?

When you said that Gould, Harry, and jps
had screwed up the newsgroup? When you said that liberals brought "filth and
disrespect" to this public forum?


And I was wrong?



I blamed you for throwing stones in your glass house.

Jim, I'll proudly compare my ratio of personal attacks and insults vs. civil
discussion with your own, any day.

You have been posting here far longer than me. Anyone can see your noise to signal
ratio is quite high. At least I have been honest about it. Your approach has
been.."Who, me?"

Regardless, you were the one claiming innocence in this whole thing when it was likely
you and Harry that brought it on (the demise of the NG).


Why do you try to make this personal all the time?

I did not. You did.

Glass house = no stones thrown.

Got it?

I am not complaining, I am making an observation. I have accepted the fact
that the NG is a venue to discuss politics and make rabid accusations
concerning anyone who disagrees with your philosophy.

If I was moderating a NG would I would not allow the personal attacks and
the off topic political discussion, because it does nothing towards building
a community. It's only purpose is to divide the community. But, this is
not a moderated NG, so all I am doing is making the observation that the
majority of the regulars come here to argue and call each other "trash".

Do you disagree with my observation?


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Most of the on topic posts are done by newbie's stumbling in. They have
no
idea rec.boats is all about politics. The regulars are the ones who turn
the on topic posts into off topic posts and start the majority of the off
topic threads.

How many of the 45 on-topic threads did you originate?

The regulars can't complain about a lack of on-topic threads if they don't
start any.

I am not complaining, I am making an observation. I have accepted the fact
that the NG is a venue to discuss politics and make rabid accusations
concerning anyone who disagrees with your philosophy.

If I was moderating a NG would I would not allow the personal attacks and
the off topic political discussion, because it does nothing towards building
a community. It's only purpose is to divide the community. But, this is
not a moderated NG, so all I am doing is making the observation that the
majority of the regulars come here to argue and call each other "trash".

Do you disagree with my observation?


I think you have a specific regular in mind when you use "trash" as the
commonly exchanged offensive moniker. My frank opinion is that you are quicker
to criticize the left leaning OT posters than the right.
That has to be OK, since I am quicker to criticize the right leaners than the
left. We should all be aware that our own bias usually shows through.

I don't disagree entirely. I see redeeming value in most of the posters, from
both (or all) sides of most issues provided they have a genuine interest in
boats and boating. There have been several instances of posters who appear
*only* to fire off anonymous flames and, when anybody calls them on this
behavior they say "I could give a rip about boating, I'm only here because you
have some GD liberals (or conservatives) that require my enlightened flaming."

You can't have a viable boating NG if a large percentage of the participants
don't own a boat, (or own a boat but never use it), and don't care aboat
boating one way or the other. What are these people going to talk about?
Certainly won't be boats or boating.

Boaters have the option to post on topic or off. Non-boaters have nothing of
substance to contribute on topic, beyond the "I'm looking for a boat and need
opinions on.........." type of thread.

Anybody who feels like a helpless victim of the NG content should consider
bringing more on-topic ideas to the forum.

One of the reasons you don't see more "pros" posting here is that the first
time anybody in the engine business or brokerage business or accessory and
supply business mentions a product or service that they perform and are
therefore
extremely familiar with, one of two or three "usual suspects" will get on that
person's case about spamming the NG. Were you around when Dave Brown posted
here? There's a good example. Very good outboard mechanic, and a gentleman.
Everytime he said "boo" he was subjected to a relentless onslaught of flaming
from an individual poster who had a low opinion of a brand of outboard motors
he sold in his shop and who had a differing opinion of the
technology associated with those engines.
The flaming went well beyond the engine technology, with Dave's personal morals
and ethics being challenged because he would dare sell such a "defective"
product.
He must have been called "spammer" a thousand times. One poster announced an
intention to drive Dave Brown from the NG, and crowed about "victory" when it
was finally accomplished.

Even Peggie Hall has had to endure some
harsh, mean spirited, criticism for offering advise on her areas of expertise.
Has always been an odd double standard: If you work as a truck driver, radio
repairman, shoe salesman, plant manager, or accountant, your opinion on some
technical aspect of boating is welcomed by all. If you actually make a living
in the field and dare to post anything based on your professional experience,
expect to be
loudly criticized for "spamming."


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Most of the on topic posts are done by newbie's stumbling in. They have
no
idea rec.boats is all about politics. The regulars are the ones who turn
the on topic posts into off topic posts and start the majority of the off
topic threads.

How many of the 45 on-topic threads did you originate?

The regulars can't complain about a lack of on-topic threads if they don't
start any.

Chuck, it really is quite telling that you fail to mention (or cast any blame
on) the
most prolific political poster (and flamer) here, namely your comrade Harry
Krause.

Is it equally telling that I didn't mention any
of the other political posters by name? Regardless of individual political
perspective?


But Harry shares your views on politics and unions, so that would not be
quite right,
now would it Chuck?

It's a conspiracy. :-)