On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:12:42 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:57:04 -0500, John H.
wrote:



And you used to teach? Who certified you - Wal-Mart?

JimH's argument methods...cut what you don't like and make comments about
the rest.

I was certified by the state of Virginia, Tom.

Sorry - that was tounge and cheek. My apologies.

What I meant to say was that, at least in this state, you have to be
certified to teach. That certification is set to state standards and
you have to pass a core curriculum, pass a subject area knowledge
test, be mentored for a minimum of one year as a teacher then pass the
BEST program which is a whole 'nother story.

Very similar to the certification requirements in Virginia. Here the test
is called the Praxis. To teach high school math, a teacher must pass two of
them, one general and one math specific.


No offense meant.

With respect to the state and standards - it is true that the state
sets standards. However your interpretation of "standards" and their
interpretation of "standards" is very different.

I can't address that. Here, a standard may be:

"The student will solve multistep linear equations and inequalities in one
variable, solve literal equations (formulas) for a given variable, and
apply these skills to solve practical problems. Graphing calculators will
be used to confirm algebraic solutions." http://tinyurl.com/2b784r

Here, every Mastery Test is written, ordered and controlled by the
state. It is corrected by the state and the statistics developed from
the test are controlled by the state. Much like the SAT/GAT prep
pre-testing program and "pass/fail" classes, the test is taught
directly to the students.

You mean to say that the tests are given to the teachers early enough in
the year for them to teach only the test questions? If that's the case,
then it's simple fraud. You've got a right to complain, but not about NCLB.

There is a whole industry, Kaplan's comes to mind, that practically
teaches the SAT, test taking concepts, essay prompts, logical
progression of answer plots - it's teaching the test. A lot of the
Mastery Test prep program is based on Kaplan's techniques I believe.
I'd have to ask Mrs. Wave to be exact.

Yes, there are many 'tricks' to taking a multiple choice test, just as
there are many 'tricks' to the design of detractors and solutions to the
questions on the test. Students should have a general understanding of how
to take a multiple choice test, how to figure the odds, and when to guess
and not guess. Teaching that is *not* 'teaching THE test', but teaching
'test taking'.

Be that as it may, I don't see how you can look at it any other way
than teaching the test.

--
John H

On Feb 11, 10:03*am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:06:02 -0500, John H.

wrote:
Yes, there are many 'tricks' to taking a multiple choice test, just as
there are many 'tricks' to the design of detractors and solutions to the
questions on the test. Students should have a general understanding of how
to take a multiple choice test, how to figure the odds, and when to guess
and not guess. Teaching that is *not* 'teaching THE test', but teaching
'test taking'.

You still aren't getting the idea.

It much more than teaching the mechanics.

For example, let's say I want to take the Private Pilot's Examination
without having to actually take a class.

All I have to do is go here.

http://www.faa.gov/education_researc...st_questions/m...

That is the question pool for the examination.

Same concept applies to the CT Mastery Test - all the questions that
can be potentially asked are there. *If you teach to the pool
questions, that is teaching the test.

There is no other way to describe it.

So, if they are teaching the pool, the kids are learning the pool,
thus, the kids are learning, the teachers have to teach them
something.. What's wrong with math, ss, science, etc, questions??

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:09:46 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Feb 11, 10:03*am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:06:02 -0500, John H.

wrote:
Yes, there are many 'tricks' to taking a multiple choice test, just as
there are many 'tricks' to the design of detractors and solutions to the
questions on the test. Students should have a general understanding of how
to take a multiple choice test, how to figure the odds, and when to guess
and not guess. Teaching that is *not* 'teaching THE test', but teaching
'test taking'.

You still aren't getting the idea.

It much more than teaching the mechanics.

For example, let's say I want to take the Private Pilot's Examination
without having to actually take a class.

All I have to do is go here.

http://www.faa.gov/education_researc...st_questions/m...

That is the question pool for the examination.

Same concept applies to the CT Mastery Test - all the questions that
can be potentially asked are there. *If you teach to the pool
questions, that is teaching the test.

There is no other way to describe it.

So, if they are teaching the pool, the kids are learning the pool,
thus, the kids are learning, the teachers have to teach them
something.. What's wrong with math, ss, science, etc, questions??

Good, someone who gets it.
--
John H

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:20:37 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:09:46 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Feb 11, 10:03*am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:06:02 -0500, John H.

wrote:
Yes, there are many 'tricks' to taking a multiple choice test, just as
there are many 'tricks' to the design of detractors and solutions to the
questions on the test. Students should have a general understanding of how
to take a multiple choice test, how to figure the odds, and when to guess
and not guess. Teaching that is *not* 'teaching THE test', but teaching
'test taking'.

You still aren't getting the idea.

It much more than teaching the mechanics.

For example, let's say I want to take the Private Pilot's Examination
without having to actually take a class.

All I have to do is go here.

http://www.faa.gov/education_researc...st_questions/m...

That is the question pool for the examination.

Same concept applies to the CT Mastery Test - all the questions that
can be potentially asked are there. *If you teach to the pool
questions, that is teaching the test.

There is no other way to describe it.

So, if they are teaching the pool, the kids are learning the pool,
thus, the kids are learning, the teachers have to teach them
something.. What's wrong with math, ss, science, etc, questions??

I'm having a sense of deja vue all over again with this discussion. I
know I've been through this with John before - not sure I want to do
this again.

It's not a question of "learning". We're talking about the Mastery
Test itself.

There is still a class curriculum that has to be taught to standard.

If the teachers are given *the test* to be administered and told to ensure
the students can answer the questions thereon, then the results would be
fraudulent.

If the teachers are given a pool of several hundred questions for each
standard and told that there will be five questions for each standard
similar to or the same as those in the large pool, then I've no problem
with it. (As long as the pool is sufficiently large to ensure the students
have mastered the standard by being able to solve all the problems.)


--
John H

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:03:38 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:06:02 -0500, John H.
wrote:

Yes, there are many 'tricks' to taking a multiple choice test, just as
there are many 'tricks' to the design of detractors and solutions to the
questions on the test. Students should have a general understanding of how
to take a multiple choice test, how to figure the odds, and when to guess
and not guess. Teaching that is *not* 'teaching THE test', but teaching
'test taking'.

You still aren't getting the idea.

It much more than teaching the mechanics.

For example, let's say I want to take the Private Pilot's Examination
without having to actually take a class.

All I have to do is go here.

http://www.faa.gov/education_researc.../media/pvt.pdf

That is the question pool for the examination.

Same concept applies to the CT Mastery Test - all the questions that
can be potentially asked are there. If you teach to the pool
questions, that is teaching the test.

There is no other way to describe it.

I just went to the CT State Department of Education website, found the
Connecticut Mastery Test (CMT) - 4th Generation - Mathematics Handbook,
2006, went to the Grade 8 site and looked at what was there. There were
standards listed, and for each of the standards there were sample
questions. There was no complete listing, that I could find, of all the
possible questions for the 8th Grade Math exam. Perhaps you could show me.

I've not seen the standards for the airmen test you mention above. If the
standards state, "The testee will be able to answer 100% (or whatever) of a
random selection of questions from the bank of questions given," then the
process the FAA uses would be appropriate.

If I take a given standard, such as 'solving linear equations in one
variable' and generate a list of 200 problems from which the test will
select five, I've no problem with giving the kids all 200 and saying, "Have
at it."

This is basically the way math education has always been. Test problems are
variations of problems done for homework or in class.

I've never heard of a teacher that didn't 'teach to a test'. Many liberals,
and yourself, seem to think that's bad.
--
John H

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:53:22 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:55:38 -0500, John H.
wrote:

I've never heard of a teacher that didn't 'teach to a test'. Many liberals,
and yourself, seem to think that's bad.

Yep - deja vue all over again.

Talk to you later.

LOL!
--
John H