"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
Calif Bill wrote:
"BAR" wrote in message
...
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Feb 1, 9:24 am, BAR wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:





Chuck Gould wrote:
On Feb 1, 6:43?am, John H. wrote:
Scary ****.
http://www.freemarketcure.com/brainsurgery.php
--
John H
Almost begins to rival this:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...lth-care_N.htm
Chuck,
We need to find a way that everyone has access to healthcare
insurance,
but Canada is not a system we want to emulate.
People need to figure out how they are going to pay for their own
health
care. I have to pay for mine. In fact I usually end up spending more
that $12,000 per year out of pocket for mine and my family's health
care.

Socialized or single payer systems are just a fast track to rationing
of
health care.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Rationing?

The current US system is also highly rationed. The rich have access to
the best available care. The poor have no to very-limited access.
The rich has access to the best available food, cars, houses, clothes,
...

I actually have a plan. We stop trying to deliver public health care
through private practice. We would set up a "pretty good" system of
public health clinics and hospitals across the country. No, there
wouldn't be private rooms, and nobody would take up a bed for
cosmetic plastic surgery or vacuuming away body fat. Some of the most
advanced heart transplant or other surgeries might not be available. A
few people might die for lack of the most exotic or heroic treatments,
but we would provide a basic level of care and repair to all comers.
Think of it as a public school, not actually intended to be the very
finest education available to anybody anywhere with any amount of
money to spend, but better than adequate for most and much better than
nothing for all.
It will devolve to rationing. The problem you have is you can't control
all of the costs. What are you going to do about salaries for the
doctors, nurses, administration staff? You will have a hard time
controlling the cost of living for one. What are fuel costs going to do
to your ability to get supplies at an acceptable cost?

If restricting access to the most ridiculously expensive medical
procedures sounds heartless, it might be. But at what point do we draw
the line? Let's assume that somebody develops a bang-on, foolproof,
absolutely 100% effective sure cure for any type of cancer. Only
problem, it relies on some ridiculously expensive rare metals and
treatment can't be administered for less than $10-12mm per patient.
Does society step up and spend $12mm in public funds to cure the
cancer of a 90-year old diabetic also suffering from kidney failure
and heart disease? Most medical ethicists would probably agree, "no".
Restricting equals rationing.

To preserve freedom of choice in the marketplace, "boutique" level
health care would also be available for those who chose to pay for it.
Insurance companies could sell policies to provide more personalized
service and fund the $500,000 heart/lung transplants and other
exceptional cases. Those willing to pay could have luxury suites,
gourmet menus, etc etc etc. The sky would be the limit.
You are proposing a two tier system. The haves and the have nots.

I have no problem allowing those with the means and desire to buy a
premium level of health care over and above what is available through
the proposed public system. That's what the patient in John's video
did, except then he decided to sue the Province to try to get the
taxpayers to reimburse him for the expense associated with his
prioritized treatment. That's not so different from deciding that
Harvard offered a better education than Local State U, going there to
get a degree, and then suing your home state for a refund representing
the difference in tution.
You want to bring the Canadian model to the USofA.

There's something wrong with the perspective that poor kids should be
denied access to decent health care (as in Texas, where a full 30% of
workers have no health insurance and the state doesn't put up the 28-
cents required to get 78-cents in Federal money for kids health).
There's something wrong with a system that causes middle class men
approaching and/or entering retirement to view the kids and the truly
indigent as "competitors" for health care.
You confuse access and insurance. Everyone has access to health care,
however, some lack the ability to pay for that access. You propose to
pay for that access with my money.

Split the system. Basic, decent, public care adequate to sustain the
general health of the poor or those who choose not to pay for anything
more exotic, and traditional private practice for folks who want the
best health care money (a lot of it) can buy.
Won't work. The basic system will fall apart as soon as you allow the
"boutiques" to exist.

The free market is the best solution, you pay as you go.

What needs to be fixed is the Worker's Comp system. Limited pool of
money to treat those entitled with the result being that those needing
care are denied.




There needs to be rational rationing. 80% of a persons medical costs are
incurred in the last couple of years of life. Our neighbors mom is 89
years old, some Alzheimer, bad heart, etc. She has probably cost the
system a million dollars in the last year. In and out of the hospital,
lots of heroic measures to keep her going. She is not going to improve.
Many years ago the then Governor of Colorado made a statement about the
old should leave the living to the young. Great stink raised about it,
but my mother, who was and still is an RN, supported the Governor 100%.
At the time she was a nurse in old folks home. Lots of those who were
eating with their fingers and completely senile. A little like Harry.
We mostly do not let our animals digress to that stage. There is a point
to just give comfort and not use everything available to keep them
alive. My mom is 93, and luckily very healthy and still functioning
brain, but she would come back and haunt me if I went to huge expense and
trouble to prolong her life 6 months or so if she fell ill. He friend
Betty who died a couple of years ago. For an extra 3 weeks of life, the
hospital bill is about $250k. Her insurance and Medicare paid bills, but
was a rather senseless expenditure.

I've got a daughter who cost about $600,000 for the first couple of months
of her life. But, I agree with the Colorado governor.

Hell of a difference between the first few months and the last few months.

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
...

There needs to be rational rationing. 80% of a persons medical costs are
incurred in the last couple of years of life. Our neighbors mom is 89
years old, some Alzheimer, bad heart, etc. She has probably cost the
system a million dollars in the last year. In and out of the hospital,
lots of heroic measures to keep her going. She is not going to improve.
Many years ago the then Governor of Colorado made a statement about the
old should leave the living to the young. Great stink raised about it,
but my mother, who was and still is an RN, supported the Governor 100%.
At the time she was a nurse in old folks home. Lots of those who were
eating with their fingers and completely senile. A little like Harry. We
mostly do not let our animals digress to that stage. There is a point to
just give comfort and not use everything available to keep them alive.
My mom is 93, and luckily very healthy and still functioning brain, but
she would come back and haunt me if I went to huge expense and trouble to
prolong her life 6 months or so if she fell ill. He friend Betty who died
a couple of years ago. For an extra 3 weeks of life, the hospital bill is
about $250k. Her insurance and Medicare paid bills, but was a rather
senseless expenditure.


My mom's nursing home palative care unit was after me to give direction on
what they should do if the worst happened.
They don't feel itwould be in an older patients best interests (mom is 93)
to call the paramedics in to do rescesitation/shove tubes down her throat
etc if it's clear that she is ready to pass on.
Tough thing to do, so I contacted my four sisters to get a consensus and
talked to mom about it. Wednesday i went for a two hour meeting to discuss
and sign directions.

"BAR" wrote in message
. ..

Let the "poor" buy their own health services? They don't need cable. They
don't need to take the family out to dinner. They *don't need the new
ca*r. Its all about decisions.


The poor down your way must be a lot better off than the poor up here.

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
...

There needs to be rational rationing. 80% of a persons medical costs are
incurred in the last couple of years of life. Our neighbors mom is 89
years old, some Alzheimer, bad heart, etc. She has probably cost the
system a million dollars in the last year. In and out of the hospital,
lots of heroic measures to keep her going. She is not going to improve.
Many years ago the then Governor of Colorado made a statement about the
old should leave the living to the young. Great stink raised about it,
but my mother, who was and still is an RN, supported the Governor 100%.
At the time she was a nurse in old folks home. Lots of those who were
eating with their fingers and completely senile. A little like Harry.
We mostly do not let our animals digress to that stage. There is a point
to just give comfort and not use everything available to keep them
alive. My mom is 93, and luckily very healthy and still functioning
brain, but she would come back and haunt me if I went to huge expense and
trouble to prolong her life 6 months or so if she fell ill. He friend
Betty who died a couple of years ago. For an extra 3 weeks of life, the
hospital bill is about $250k. Her insurance and Medicare paid bills, but
was a rather senseless expenditure.


My mom's nursing home palative care unit was after me to give direction on
what they should do if the worst happened.
They don't feel itwould be in an older patients best interests (mom is 93)
to call the paramedics in to do rescesitation/shove tubes down her throat
etc if it's clear that she is ready to pass on.
Tough thing to do, so I contacted my four sisters to get a consensus and
talked to mom about it. Wednesday i went for a two hour meeting to discuss
and sign directions.

Don't they have living wills in Canada, or isn't you mother up to making
decisions on her own?

In this country I'm all in favor of everyone having a living will. Takes
the pressure off family members.

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
...

On Feb 1, 12:36?pm, "Eisboch" wrote:

In my limited personal experience with health care issues, the only thing
anybody has ever asked me was for my BlueCross/BlueShield insurance card.
I've never been asked how much income I make or if I can pay personally
for
"better" care.

Eisboch

If you were poor, you wouldn't have that insurance card.

------------------------------------

As of January 1st, I better have in MA or I'd be in violation of the law.
It is now *mandatory* to have health insurance of some type in this state.

Eisboch

What's the penalty for not having one? What if you choose to self insure?

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
...
On Feb 1, 12:36?pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in
messagenews:q207q357n20igfc8gsb1hnj8ghqjruivv7@4ax .com...

On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:18:57 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

The current US system is also highly rationed. The rich have access to
the best available care. The poor have no to very-limited access.

I love comments like this.

Unreal.

In my limited personal experience with health care issues, the only thing
anybody has ever asked me was for my BlueCross/BlueShield insurance card.
I've never been asked how much income I make or if I can pay personally
for
"better" care.

Eisboch

If you were poor, you wouldn't have that insurance card.

A significant portion of your insurance premiums are used to reimburse
hospitals for emergency room treatment, sometimes of "sniffles" etc,
for poor families. The emergency room (of some hospitals) is the only
place these families know they will not be turned away for lack of
resources.

We are already delivering health care to the poor, in the most
conceivably expensive manner possible.

Don't want to pay for health care for poor folks? Maybe a $100 or so
of your current health care insurance premium already goes to that
purpose. Let's buy health services for the poor at a reasonable,
rather than a premium cost.

Actually only part of what you say is true. We need to reconsider the
emergency room. When I required a hospital visit while in Italy a few years
ago, they have the ideal solution. Translates as "First Response". Is like
a clinic doctors office. Is free to everybody, even Americans. Is an
office with a doctor, nurse, aids and clerk. Is for all the minor stuff.
Old lady had sore ankle, I had a toothache. No major tests, they question
you, look at you and in my case, gave me a pain killer, and prescription of
Antibiotic and pain medicine. If I had to have more, I would have had to go
next door to the hospital itself and then I would have to pay. No free
hospital for legal or illegal aliens. We have them go the ER, where for
liability reasons, they give a couple $k in tests even if the kid is in with
the sniffles. Plus bogs dwn the system that is trying to deal with major
trauma. Set up a separate office, and so what if they have to wait a couple
of hours. If they are having a heart attack go to the ER, if you got a sore
knee, sniffles "first response". and if you show up at the ER with the
sniffles, expect to pay lots. Even if you do not have money, expect to have
to come up with some money.

"D.Duck" wrote in message
...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
...

On Feb 1, 12:36?pm, "Eisboch" wrote:

In my limited personal experience with health care issues, the only
thing
anybody has ever asked me was for my BlueCross/BlueShield insurance
card.
I've never been asked how much income I make or if I can pay personally
for
"better" care.

Eisboch

If you were poor, you wouldn't have that insurance card.

------------------------------------

As of January 1st, I better have in MA or I'd be in violation of the law.
It is now *mandatory* to have health insurance of some type in this
state.

Eisboch

What's the penalty for not having one? What if you choose to self insure?


Duck, I don't know the answer to either question. I know that in the
months leading up to Jan 1st when the law went into effect, there were
television and radio ads reminding everyone of the new law and options that
were available to those who didn't or couldn't obtain insurance through
their employers. I believe the state mandated an "affordable" shared risk
program as well.

Eisboch

On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 17:09:48 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 1, 12:36?pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in messagenews:q207q357n20igfc8gsb1hnj8ghqjruivv7@4ax .com...

On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:18:57 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

The current US system is also highly rationed. The rich have access to
the best available care. The poor have no to very-limited access.

I love comments like this.

Unreal.

In my limited personal experience with health care issues, the only thing
anybody has ever asked me was for my BlueCross/BlueShield insurance card.
I've never been asked how much income I make or if I can pay personally for
"better" care.

Eisboch

If you were poor, you wouldn't have that insurance card.

A significant portion of your insurance premiums are used to reimburse
hospitals for emergency room treatment, sometimes of "sniffles" etc,
for poor families. The emergency room (of some hospitals) is the only
place these families know they will not be turned away for lack of
resources.

We are already delivering health care to the poor, in the most
conceivably expensive manner possible.

Don't want to pay for health care for poor folks? Maybe a $100 or so
of your current health care insurance premium already goes to that
purpose. Let's buy health services for the poor at a reasonable,
rather than a premium cost.

Let's fix the illegal alien problem and work on 'our' poor.
--
John H

Don White wrote:
"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
People need to figure out how they are going to pay for their own health
care. I have to pay for mine. In fact I usually end up spending more that
$12,000 per year out of pocket for mine and my family's health care.

Socialized or single payer systems are just a fast track to rationing of
health care.


$12k a year?? You must be one sickly SOB!



YOU are putting someone else's family down? Is that how you justify
your own sad situation? Go walk the dog now, Donnie.

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
...

There needs to be rational rationing. 80% of a persons medical costs are
incurred in the last couple of years of life. Our neighbors mom is 89
years old, some Alzheimer, bad heart, etc. She has probably cost the
system a million dollars in the last year. In and out of the hospital,
lots of heroic measures to keep her going. She is not going to improve.
Many years ago the then Governor of Colorado made a statement about the
old should leave the living to the young. Great stink raised about it,
but my mother, who was and still is an RN, supported the Governor 100%.
At the time she was a nurse in old folks home. Lots of those who were
eating with their fingers and completely senile. A little like Harry.
We mostly do not let our animals digress to that stage. There is a point
to just give comfort and not use everything available to keep them
alive. My mom is 93, and luckily very healthy and still functioning
brain, but she would come back and haunt me if I went to huge expense and
trouble to prolong her life 6 months or so if she fell ill. He friend
Betty who died a couple of years ago. For an extra 3 weeks of life, the
hospital bill is about $250k. Her insurance and Medicare paid bills, but
was a rather senseless expenditure.


My mom's nursing home palative care unit was after me to give direction on
what they should do if the worst happened.
They don't feel itwould be in an older patients best interests (mom is 93)
to call the paramedics in to do rescesitation/shove tubes down her throat
etc if it's clear that she is ready to pass on.
Tough thing to do, so I contacted my four sisters to get a consensus and
talked to mom about it. Wednesday i went for a two hour meeting to discuss
and sign directions.


My mom has a living will, and a directive to not do heroic measures to
resuscitate her. She is also 93, but still lives alone in her home. My
brother and I do go a couple of times a week. Attorney told us if we go
over and she is gone or almost gone, go have a cup of coffee and then call
the EMT's as they will resusitate no matter what.