"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
Calif Bill wrote:
"BAR" wrote in message
...
Calif Bill wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 11:37:04 -0500, wrote:

These IBM secrets weren't all that secret. I remember working next to
an AS5, a 3158 clone (Itel?)
Itel/National Advanced Systems (NAS)

It didn't take long for us to show the Tbar guy where his problem was
and that makes the customer happy. Isn't that the real objective?
In a perfect world... :-)

You were one of the good guys. Itel/NAS had a few "good guys" also
but you had to know who they were and ask for them by name.

The AS5 microcode updates were handled in the same lab as the one where
were were developing the 3800 clone. Microcode guy was known forever
as Floppy John. His name was John and he did the floppies for the
updates. Also his user name. Of course everyone reverse engineered the
competions code. And just seem to be near the same when re-engineered.
;) When I was an FE, I handled the optical scanner for cash register
tapes and he hooked up to lots of the competions CPU's. Met some good
guys and a few duds dealing with them.
I have a strong dislike for an on-site IBM FE at C&S Bank in Atlanta.
Prick wouldn't let me borrow his o-scope to take two readings on a piece
of equipment I was trouble shooting. I even asked him to operate the
o-scope and he still said no.

Your operation to cheap to buy one? :) Maybe IBM was tighter than NCR.

Yeah, we were too cheap to buy a second one. We had one in the lab and
they wouldn't let it travel. Several times I had to go to Radio Shack and
buy the beginner soldering set to use to fix stuff.

In the early years we had Tek 535 scopes. Huge things, not really portable.
One of the service cars was stolen, and had one of the scopes and they cost
about $10k I think in those days. We get a call from the CHP about who to
send the ticket to for littering the highway. They found the scope and a
bunch of other stuff from stolen car dump on the freeway right of way. No
ticket and we were happy to get the stuff back.

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:38:50 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

Of course everyone reverse engineered the competions code.

Obviously IBM didn't feel that way. They wrote ALL the interface code
from scratch while they were designing the interface. We stopped
publishing the CAS. In the 4341 the channel microcode was "registered
IBM confidential" and my copy couldn't leave the office unless I
logged it out. I suppose you could try to decompile the diskette but,
as far as I know, nobody ever did. In real life the technology cycle
was going so fast any clone someone made would be obsolete before it
made it to the field. 370 channel pretty much gave way to ESCON
anyway.

They did not have to reverse engineer, as there was a void before they did
it. Amdahl never made profit because after the 470 v6 about the time
Amdahl got a clone out, IBM dropped the price on their unit. IBM had
already covered their design costs, while Amdahl had to try to recover
theirs with a greatly reduced price. But IBM may have used other peoples
code in some of thier projects. ATM's were first developed by NCR, and you
have to bet IBM looked at them very closely when designing theirs.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 14:22:26 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

ATM's were first developed by NCR, and you
have to bet IBM looked at them very closely when designing theirs.

Unfortunately not or we woulfd have had a better feed module ;-)
Unfortunatekly the 3624 and 3614 were built with as many IBM off the
shelf parts as they could. NCR had a lot better ATM and it took IBM 15
years to build as good a cash register. By then they were repackaged
PCs anyway.

IBM had better salesmen also. Macy's San Francisco was looking at new POS
(Point of sale) system and the NCR terminals were better and smaller wire to
run. The NCR sales guy told Macy's that they would have to run the terminal
wires in conduit past all the florescent lights, and the IBM sale guy said
not needed with the IBM terminals. They needed the conduit also, but the
IBM guy knew the fire department required the conduit. So Macy went IBM.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 14:15:15 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

In the early years we had Tek 535 scopes.

We had them in the 1401 accounts. We had 453s in the 360 accounts. I
carried a 453 for about 20 years and I still have it, a parting gift
when I retired.
I have the portable 200 mhz Tek. ones designed for portability. Forget the
number, as I loaned to a buddy a couple years ago and he asks me every once
in awhile if I need it back. Got it at another company I did the sustaining
engineering for. The vertical circuit was not working, and the unit had
been written down. They gave it to me, and the Field service lady sent it
into Tek for repair. So I got a nice scope. Rarely have need for it.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 22:13:56 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

I have the portable 200 mhz Tek. ones designed for portability. Forget
the
number, as I loaned to a buddy a couple years ago and he asks me every
once
in awhile if I need it back. Got it at another company I did the
sustaining
engineering for. The vertical circuit was not working, and the unit had
been written down. They gave it to me, and the Field service lady sent it

The 453 was designed to be hauled around, in a 1965 sort of way. I
think IBM and Tek developed it jointly I know they are hard to break.

I also got out of there with a Tek 465 and a Dranitz 656. I had a PT3
but I gave it away but I still have my 210 dataprobe TP line monitor.
When IBM folded up the service business in the late 90s they chucked
millions of dollars in test equipment. Now everything is just "cut
open the box and plug in a new one". Nobody fixes anything.
I saw the writing on the wall in the 80s and started filling my wallet
with cards. IBM got me BICSI certified, I am a Fl licensed electrical
inspector, I got HVAC trained in Installation Planning school and I
got some LAN certifications, unfortunately mostly Token Ring and IBM
software oriented. I also got pretty good with DB2 and the IBM version
of SQL. With all that I was still out of any meaningful work in 96 so
I took the deal.

My only interest in computers these days is building and maintaining
my own PCs.

High school friend was an IBM regional specialist at the end. He also saw
the writing on the wall and took the buy out. Fortunately for him, he and I
owned a construction equipment leasing operation on the side and after I
moved for work he took controlling interest and with a minority partner was
able to pay for his boys college education.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 22:10:36 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

IBM had better salesmen also. Macy's San Francisco was looking at new POS
(Point of sale) system and the NCR terminals were better and smaller wire
to
run. The NCR sales guy told Macy's that they would have to run the
terminal
wires in conduit past all the florescent lights, and the IBM sale guy said
not needed with the IBM terminals. They needed the conduit also, but the
IBM guy knew the fire department required the conduit. So Macy went IBM.


It was a myth that flourecent lights affected the baseband LAN IBM
used on the 46xx registers and the S loop on the 36xx registers was
tougher than that.

I did a lot of tests in the lab on both.
The S loop ran so slow you couldn't break it. We wired with STP and it
would run on doorbell wire. The baseband LAN run with CAT3 was immune
to anything a ballast could throw at it. It only ran at 1mz. We ran
UTP all over shopping malls and fast food joints here without much
regard to anything. (no conduit, just "plenum rated cable") They
worked fine. Later when I acually got certified as an electrical
inspector I know most of that wiring was not legal.

I think the IBM salesman must have known that the San Francisco regulations
required conduit. So he had the best of all worlds. A good LAN and the
ability to say no conduit required even if it was. He was just a better
prepared peddler.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 11:21:45 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

I think the IBM salesman must have known that the San Francisco
regulations
required conduit. So he had the best of all worlds. A good LAN and the
ability to say no conduit required even if it was. He was just a better
prepared peddler.

Where were you running that cable that required conduit? That almost
sounds like a Chicago thing. In Florida (and Md) you can run low
voltage cable in a plenum Tbar ceiling if it is plenum rated. You just
need to support it above the ceiling tile. That is a National Electric
Code requirement. Usually it just got thrown up there tho.

The Independent Republic of San Francisco.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:08:25 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

Where were you running that cable that required conduit? That almost
sounds like a Chicago thing. In Florida (and Md) you can run low
voltage cable in a plenum Tbar ceiling if it is plenum rated. You just
need to support it above the ceiling tile. That is a National Electric
Code requirement. Usually it just got thrown up there tho.

The Independent Republic of San Francisco.


Let me guess, has to be installed by a union electrician too?

It was so bad in Chicago that CEs couldn't run interface cables under
the floor in the computer room. I was in the education center and I
pulled a floor tile to move a machine over a square and the management
had a cow right there. They said if anyone saw me there would be
pickets in front of the building or something. They were all in a
chase anyway.
They also require EMT for all residential wiring there, no Romex.

SF is a huge union town. But we could at least run our own cables. Worst
computer disaster I witnessed was moving a system from one room to another.
The original room had a missed wired plug for 110V 30 amp for a card read
punch. The original FE had rewired the plug on the reader to conform to the
bad plug without telling anybody or leaving a note. Moving the system to
the other room, I checked the receptacles as to normal operations and found
it correct. Left 110v on the frame of the reader. Luckily was far enough
from the wall and any grounds to keep from killing anybody. Worked fine
offline and after we turned off all the power and hooked up all the logic
cables to the CPU and reader and when we turned on the power to both units,
CPU 208 3 phase 208V. It looked like a scene from Voyage to the Bottom of
the Sea. Sparks and flaming parts of PC boards flying out the open doors of
the CPU and card reader. About $150k damage in 5 seconds. CPU never ran
again. NCR ate the cost. Another install the Electrician (union) ate the
cost. HE swapped one of the hot leads and neutral in one of the junction
boxes before it got to the CPU receptacle.

Another install ... the Electrician (union) ate the
cost. If any. HE swapped one of the hot leads and neutral in one of
the junction boxes before it got to the Card Punch receptacle. My man
pluged it in, and fire and copper squirted out of the socket. He went
to sick bay for bandages, and underwear. After that I metered ALL new
relocation, and wireing. The union guys at McDonald Douglass LB got to
know me, and backed off after me telling them what happened.
Oh, something "boat" http://www.densnet.com

Den

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:35:14 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

The original room had a missed wired plug for 110V 30 amp for a card read
punch.
That's unusual. IBM never had any 110v equipment in the computer room.
We didn't even bring a neutral to the distribution panels. Even the
smallest stuff was 240 or 208v. Later they did start putting in 120v
plugs for terminals but a lot of places just plugged them into the
convenience outlets in the frames. (transformer fed)

We had lots of 120V stuff.