On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:01:21 -0800, "William Andersen"
wrote:

I've read of others making
the same mistakes and could never understand why they aren't clearly
identified in the first place.

Because no one thinks it can happen to them until it does.

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:47:13 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

I'm thinking of painting the fuel fill plate green, to match the
diesel hose.

If you go to your neighborhood UPS store they can make up engraved
plastic, color coded plates for you. For another $5 you can buy a
Dymo label making tool with a variety of colored tapes which will
stick to the bronze deck plates. We've adopted both on our GB49 and
they've held up well for over 2 years. I'd like to report that we
were prescient enough to anticipate the problem in advance of making
the labels but that is unfortunately not the case.

I've now taken it one step further and made up color coded ID plates
for the fuel tank valve manifold.

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:47:13 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Nov 29, 9:52?pm, "William Andersen" wrote:
So, why aren't the deck plates identified?
I've read about these mistakes before and never understood why things aren't
clearly labeled, especially when having enough money to own a boat doesn't
mean you have any technical aptitude or interest.

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message

...



Don't know about most days, but today there is no doubt just who's the
dumbest guy in the NG. ?Yours truly.

Thought I'd move the boat from my covered slip over to the yacht club
dock this afternoon. About a half hour's run.

En route, I began calculating how long it had been since last taking
on a load of fuel.

"I'm probably OK," I thought. "But maybe I'll stop off at the fuel
dock and get 20 gallons or so just for insurance. I'll fuel up
seriously next time I'm outside the locks and can get B20."

Pulled up to the local fuel dock. $3.99 per gallon for diesel. No big
deal, $80 bucks worth and I'll be certain of having more than enough
aboard for the upcoming lighted boats parades.

"In fact", I thought, "I'll put it all in the starboard tank. The trim
is a little heavy to port right now, and that will level things off
quite nicely."

"Hello, Chuck" says the fuel dock guy.

"Hi, Dave. I'm only going to put 20 gallons or so in the starboard
tank, just to
make sure I've got enough to do the Special People's Cruise and the
parade."

"No problem."

I uncrew the deck plate and begin filling the tank. At about 14 or 15
gallons, I'm hearing fuel in the vent line. "Impossible! I need a lot
more fuel than that, I've got to be down at least 100 gallons in this
150-gallon tank what the heck?"

Oh.......*That's* the heck!

In the gathering late afternoon darkness, I had unscrewed the deck cap
for the holding tank pump out.......immediately next to the fuel tank
filler. I had just topped off my holding tank with diesel.

Dumb, Dumb, Dumb.

"Don't feel too badly," said Dave. "The Argosy (huge commercial
charter boat) did exactly the same thing here not long ago. But of
course they took on well oer 100 gallons before they realized what
they had done."

"What did they do about it?" I asked.

"We hooked up my oil change pump and sucked it out. Only problem is, I
need a new hose for my oil change pump so I don't dare try to evacuate
your holding tank. I know I'd have diesel leaking into the water for
sure. Frankly, I don't know what we can do for you tonight, I'm
getting ready to close and go home."

They say Providence looks after kids and idiots, and just then this
idiot got a break.

Putt, putt, putting along the canal was one of the local "Sani-system"
boats.
A unique group of businessmen make a living by running small boats
with pumps and several hundred gallon holding tanks into our local
marinas where they pump out the holding tanks for liveaboards. It
normally costs about $25 to have a holding tank pumped. Dave waved the
guy over to the fuel dock.

"Maybe you can help us out," said Dave. "Chuck here has just pumped
about 15 gallons of diesel into his holding tank."

"No way," was the first response. "I can't put diesel into my sewage
tank, I wouldn't be able to discharge it."

"I have a plan," said Dave. I'll truck one of my waste oil recycling
barrels out here to the dock, you disconnect your hose from your sewer
tank and pump into the barrel. We'll flush the hose with a few gallons
of soapy water, and put that into the barrel as well, and then rinse
it all out with some lake water- also into the barrel."

"Well, OK" said the sani-system guy.

We pumped the holding tank into the recycle barrel. (The tank itself
was pretty empty before I added the diesel). Then we dumped some TSP
cleaner and water into the tank and sucked that into the barrel as
well. Finally, we
flushed the hose with lake water, and the ridiculous screw up was
corrected.

And so the dumbest guy in the NG, and certainly the dumbest guy
actually out on a boat in Seattle (there wasn't much traffic) this
afternoon was rescued from his own stupidity by a couple of guys who
didn't really *have* to do anything. I paid the pump out guy for his
time and trouble, but the Dave didn't charge me anything for the extra
trouble, or for staying past closing time to get me squared away. I am
on the hook for $2 per gallon to recyle the contaminated diesel when
the guy comes around to pick it up, but I'll be glad to get off so
cheaply.

"Good thing that wasn't gasoline," we all agreed.

"And good thing it wasn't your water tank," commented Dave. "This
happens more often than you'd think, and a lot of times people put
fuel into their potable water tanks. About the only real cure for that
is to replace the tank, and maybe some of the lines if any of the fuel
gets pumped through. You're getting off for under a hundred bucks all
said, all done, while a water tank replacement could cost $1000 or
more."

So round up the doo-wop group; "dum, dum, dum dum, dum de de de
diddly, dum dum doo wah....." ? :-)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Both bronze plates are the same size and are unlabeled. The word
"Diesel" is cast into the collar around the fuel fill, while the
collar around the pump out cap is plain. It was hard to tell them
apart in the dark, but there was no excuse for the mistake after
owning the boat for as many years as I have. It was simply a
mistake,,,,,,,,,and anybody can make one.

I'm thinking of painting the fuel fill plate green, to match the
diesel hose.

Colors don't show well at night. It would seem like they could make a
special 'key' for fuel fills only. On my boat the key is special, but I've
nothing else into which I could put a hose.

I can honestly say that I've never accidentally done *anything* wrong with
diesel fuel on a boat. Of course, using gas helps prevent diesel mistakes.

--
John H

On Thu, 29 Nov 07, "William Andersen" wrote:
So, why aren't the deck plates identified?
I've read about these mistakes before and never understood why things aren't
clearly labeled

Do you read the on/0ff label on a light switch every time you
constatly use it? Labels are fine for people who've never used the
"whatever" device before. But after the first use, it takes something
else to get your attention.

And btw, years ago when gas stations had attendants, I had one pump a
few gallons down a rod holder before my screaming got his attention.
Not my mistake but I've made worse.

Rick

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:09:23 -0600, lid wrote:

And btw, years ago when gas stations had attendants, I had one pump a
few gallons down a rod holder before my screaming got his attention.

ROTFL!!!!

I feel your pain, but that is still funny.

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:09:23 -0600, lid wrote:

On Thu, 29 Nov 07, "William Andersen" wrote:
So, why aren't the deck plates identified?
I've read about these mistakes before and never understood why things aren't
clearly labeled

Do you read the on/0ff label on a light switch every time you
constatly use it? Labels are fine for people who've never used the
"whatever" device before. But after the first use, it takes something
else to get your attention.

You've hit on the problem, which is the way the human mind works.
Outside of standardized hose/receptacle fittings, the only way to
prevent this kind of thing from happening is about five guys with
checklists doing the job - and even then they might screw up.
Distractions - maybe only the guy on the fuel dock yakking at you -
can flip your mind to the wrong action.
I once pumped about 1000 gallons of heavy navy fuel oil into Naples
harbor, and to this day don't fully understand how it happened, except
I was distracted by other responsibilities I do know how it could
have been prevented, but it's too late now.
Strictly followed procedures are important, but most people don't
establish them for something as simple as gassing up.

--Vic

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:38:10 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:09:23 -0600, lid wrote:

On Thu, 29 Nov 07, "William Andersen" wrote:
So, why aren't the deck plates identified?
I've read about these mistakes before and never understood why things aren't
clearly labeled

Do you read the on/0ff label on a light switch every time you
constatly use it? Labels are fine for people who've never used the
"whatever" device before. But after the first use, it takes something
else to get your attention.

You've hit on the problem, which is the way the human mind works.
Outside of standardized hose/receptacle fittings, the only way to
prevent this kind of thing from happening is about five guys with
checklists doing the job - and even then they might screw up.
Distractions - maybe only the guy on the fuel dock yakking at you -
can flip your mind to the wrong action.
I once pumped about 1000 gallons of heavy navy fuel oil into Naples
harbor, and to this day don't fully understand how it happened, except
I was distracted by other responsibilities I do know how it could
have been prevented, but it's too late now.
Strictly followed procedures are important, but most people don't
establish them for something as simple as gassing up.

--Vic

Fixing those problems before the fact is called 'Human Factors
Engineering'. I took a course in it at USC, and found it very interesting.
The examples of poor HFE were often hilarious.
--
John H

On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 08:23:53 -0500, John H.
wrote:



Fixing those problems before the fact is called 'Human Factors
Engineering'. I took a course in it at USC, and found it very interesting.
The examples of poor HFE were often hilarious.

Sounds like an interesting course. I think magicians and scam artists
take that course too.
I used to go the racetrack and I had a strict limit on how much I
would let myself lose. Just that kept me from getting scammed a
couple times, because every time I took an action I would look in my
wallet to remind myself if I could afford a beer.
Walked away from the ticket window once, counted the money in my
wallet to see if it was time for a beer. and I *knew* I was short ten
bucks. I never saw it happen, just knew it did. All I knew was that
the guy was friendlier than most, and engaged me in a bit of
conversation and I was ten bucks short.
I was lucky to find the same ticket window, because I already almost
forgot what the guy looked like, and there was a lot of traffic at the
windows. I picked what looked like the right one, got in line and
when it was my turn told the guy, "Hey, you shorted me ten bucks."
He innocently says, "Whaddaya talkin' about?"
I says, "You got me talking about the daily double, and shorted me ten
bucks."
He said, "Hey, you walked away."
I said, sort of like Arnie, "Yeah, and now I'm back."
He slipped ten across the counter.
Another time at the rush getting into the track I give the admissions
guy in the booth a 10 for the 2 buck grandstand admission, then he
simultaneously releases the turnstyle lock and slides my change to me.
I pick it up, my hip is hitting the turnstyle bar, and I look at the
money. It's 3 crumpled singles, 5 bucks short. But he saw me looking
at my change instead of stuffing it my pocket or wallet and already
has the five sliding across the counter. I never missed a step, but
it was like slow motion in my mind and I saw exactly how they work it.
I call it "The Hesitation." Be careful when a cashier talks to you
while giving you change.
The question is, how many times did I miss it before I caught on?
We all get scammed, and don't even know it happened.
Good sound fueling and wallet procedures are a vital need.

--Vic

Chuck Gould wrote:
Don't know about most days, but today there is no doubt just who's the
dumbest guy in the NG. Yours truly.

Thought I'd move the boat from my covered slip over to the yacht club
dock this afternoon. About a half hour's run.

En route, I began calculating how long it had been since last taking
on a load of fuel.

"I'm probably OK," I thought. "But maybe I'll stop off at the fuel
dock and get 20 gallons or so just for insurance. I'll fuel up
seriously next time I'm outside the locks and can get B20."

Pulled up to the local fuel dock. $3.99 per gallon for diesel. No big
deal, $80 bucks worth and I'll be certain of having more than enough
aboard for the upcoming lighted boats parades.

"In fact", I thought, "I'll put it all in the starboard tank. The trim
is a little heavy to port right now, and that will level things off
quite nicely."

"Hello, Chuck" says the fuel dock guy.

"Hi, Dave. I'm only going to put 20 gallons or so in the starboard
tank, just to
make sure I've got enough to do the Special People's Cruise and the
parade."

"No problem."

I uncrew the deck plate and begin filling the tank. At about 14 or 15
gallons, I'm hearing fuel in the vent line. "Impossible! I need a lot
more fuel than that, I've got to be down at least 100 gallons in this
150-gallon tank what the heck?"

Oh.......*That's* the heck!

In the gathering late afternoon darkness, I had unscrewed the deck cap
for the holding tank pump out.......immediately next to the fuel tank
filler. I had just topped off my holding tank with diesel.

Dumb, Dumb, Dumb.

"Don't feel too badly," said Dave. "The Argosy (huge commercial
charter boat) did exactly the same thing here not long ago. But of
course they took on well oer 100 gallons before they realized what
they had done."

"What did they do about it?" I asked.

"We hooked up my oil change pump and sucked it out. Only problem is, I
need a new hose for my oil change pump so I don't dare try to evacuate
your holding tank. I know I'd have diesel leaking into the water for
sure. Frankly, I don't know what we can do for you tonight, I'm
getting ready to close and go home."

They say Providence looks after kids and idiots, and just then this
idiot got a break.

Putt, putt, putting along the canal was one of the local "Sani-system"
boats.
A unique group of businessmen make a living by running small boats
with pumps and several hundred gallon holding tanks into our local
marinas where they pump out the holding tanks for liveaboards. It
normally costs about $25 to have a holding tank pumped. Dave waved the
guy over to the fuel dock.

"Maybe you can help us out," said Dave. "Chuck here has just pumped
about 15 gallons of diesel into his holding tank."

"No way," was the first response. "I can't put diesel into my sewage
tank, I wouldn't be able to discharge it."

"I have a plan," said Dave. I'll truck one of my waste oil recycling
barrels out here to the dock, you disconnect your hose from your sewer
tank and pump into the barrel. We'll flush the hose with a few gallons
of soapy water, and put that into the barrel as well, and then rinse
it all out with some lake water- also into the barrel."

"Well, OK" said the sani-system guy.

We pumped the holding tank into the recycle barrel. (The tank itself
was pretty empty before I added the diesel). Then we dumped some TSP
cleaner and water into the tank and sucked that into the barrel as
well. Finally, we
flushed the hose with lake water, and the ridiculous screw up was
corrected.

And so the dumbest guy in the NG, and certainly the dumbest guy
actually out on a boat in Seattle (there wasn't much traffic) this
afternoon was rescued from his own stupidity by a couple of guys who
didn't really *have* to do anything. I paid the pump out guy for his
time and trouble, but the Dave didn't charge me anything for the extra
trouble, or for staying past closing time to get me squared away. I am
on the hook for $2 per gallon to recyle the contaminated diesel when
the guy comes around to pick it up, but I'll be glad to get off so
cheaply.

"Good thing that wasn't gasoline," we all agreed.

"And good thing it wasn't your water tank," commented Dave. "This
happens more often than you'd think, and a lot of times people put
fuel into their potable water tanks. About the only real cure for that
is to replace the tank, and maybe some of the lines if any of the fuel
gets pumped through. You're getting off for under a hundred bucks all
said, all done, while a water tank replacement could cost $1000 or
more."

So round up the doo-wop group; "dum, dum, dum dum, dum de de de
diddly, dum dum doo wah....." :-)






Chuck, I am sure you are the only one stupid enough to do such a thing,
but I have seen fuel and fresh water caps, that had different spacing on
the holes in the top, so you needed to use different "keys" to open
them. Your problem was a minor one, can you imagine if someone pumped
diesel into your fresh water system.

On Nov 30, 6:34 am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
Don't know about most days, but today there is no doubt just who's the
dumbest guy in the NG. Yours truly.

Thought I'd move the boat from my covered slip over to the yacht club
dock this afternoon. About a half hour's run.

En route, I began calculating how long it had been since last taking
on a load of fuel.

"I'm probably OK," I thought. "But maybe I'll stop off at the fuel
dock and get 20 gallons or so just for insurance. I'll fuel up
seriously next time I'm outside the locks and can get B20."

Pulled up to the local fuel dock. $3.99 per gallon for diesel. No big
deal, $80 bucks worth and I'll be certain of having more than enough
aboard for the upcoming lighted boats parades.

"In fact", I thought, "I'll put it all in the starboard tank. The trim
is a little heavy to port right now, and that will level things off
quite nicely."

"Hello, Chuck" says the fuel dock guy.

"Hi, Dave. I'm only going to put 20 gallons or so in the starboard
tank, just to
make sure I've got enough to do the Special People's Cruise and the
parade."

"No problem."

I uncrew the deck plate and begin filling the tank. At about 14 or 15
gallons, I'm hearing fuel in the vent line. "Impossible! I need a lot
more fuel than that, I've got to be down at least 100 gallons in this
150-gallon tank what the heck?"

Oh.......*That's* the heck!

In the gathering late afternoon darkness, I had unscrewed the deck cap
for the holding tank pump out.......immediately next to the fuel tank
filler. I had just topped off my holding tank with diesel.

Dumb, Dumb, Dumb.

"Don't feel too badly," said Dave. "The Argosy (huge commercial
charter boat) did exactly the same thing here not long ago. But of
course they took on well oer 100 gallons before they realized what
they had done."

"What did they do about it?" I asked.

"We hooked up my oil change pump and sucked it out. Only problem is, I
need a new hose for my oil change pump so I don't dare try to evacuate
your holding tank. I know I'd have diesel leaking into the water for
sure. Frankly, I don't know what we can do for you tonight, I'm
getting ready to close and go home."

They say Providence looks after kids and idiots, and just then this
idiot got a break.

Putt, putt, putting along the canal was one of the local "Sani-system"
boats.
A unique group of businessmen make a living by running small boats
with pumps and several hundred gallon holding tanks into our local
marinas where they pump out the holding tanks for liveaboards. It
normally costs about $25 to have a holding tank pumped. Dave waved the
guy over to the fuel dock.

"Maybe you can help us out," said Dave. "Chuck here has just pumped
about 15 gallons of diesel into his holding tank."

"No way," was the first response. "I can't put diesel into my sewage
tank, I wouldn't be able to discharge it."

"I have a plan," said Dave. I'll truck one of my waste oil recycling
barrels out here to the dock, you disconnect your hose from your sewer
tank and pump into the barrel. We'll flush the hose with a few gallons
of soapy water, and put that into the barrel as well, and then rinse
it all out with some lake water- also into the barrel."

"Well, OK" said the sani-system guy.

We pumped the holding tank into the recycle barrel. (The tank itself
was pretty empty before I added the diesel). Then we dumped some TSP
cleaner and water into the tank and sucked that into the barrel as
well. Finally, we
flushed the hose with lake water, and the ridiculous screw up was
corrected.

And so the dumbest guy in the NG, and certainly the dumbest guy
actually out on a boat in Seattle (there wasn't much traffic) this
afternoon was rescued from his own stupidity by a couple of guys who
didn't really *have* to do anything. I paid the pump out guy for his
time and trouble, but the Dave didn't charge me anything for the extra
trouble, or for staying past closing time to get me squared away. I am
on the hook for $2 per gallon to recyle the contaminated diesel when
the guy comes around to pick it up, but I'll be glad to get off so
cheaply.

"Good thing that wasn't gasoline," we all agreed.

"And good thing it wasn't your water tank," commented Dave. "This
happens more often than you'd think, and a lot of times people put
fuel into their potable water tanks. About the only real cure for that
is to replace the tank, and maybe some of the lines if any of the fuel
gets pumped through. You're getting off for under a hundred bucks all
said, all done, while a water tank replacement could cost $1000 or
more."

So round up the doo-wop group; "dum, dum, dum dum, dum de de de
diddly, dum dum doo wah....." :-)

Chuck, I am sure you are the only one stupid enough to do such a thing,
but I have seen fuel and fresh water caps, that had different spacing on
the holes in the top, so you needed to use different "keys" to open
them. Your problem was a minor one, can you imagine if someone pumped
diesel into your fresh water system.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Chuck doesn't have this problem I hope, but I did leave my transom
plug out once. So I got it on plane and pulled the plug and sucked the
boat dry, put back the plug, and just went fishin'.