On Nov 24, 3:49�am, HK wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. �We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. �The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. �Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. �With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. �So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. �Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.

That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.

Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When the building boom was in full swing, maybe 12-18 months ago, the
carpenter's union was running advertisements trying to entice young
people to sign up for the apprenticeship program. They represented
that journeyman carpenters could earn a wage "consistent with most
college graduates", and regardless of the area of the country one
lives in and whatever the level of prevailing wages, that's probably
true. It should be. A guy who can frame a house has a lot more
economic value, IMO, than somebody who understands all the history and
nuances of 17th Century French oil painting. (I must be a barbarian.)

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 24, 3:49�am, HK wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. �We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. �The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. �Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. �With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. �So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. �Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.
That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.
Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When the building boom was in full swing, maybe 12-18 months ago, the
carpenter's union was running advertisements trying to entice young
people to sign up for the apprenticeship program. They represented
that journeyman carpenters could earn a wage "consistent with most
college graduates", and regardless of the area of the country one
lives in and whatever the level of prevailing wages, that's probably
true. It should be. A guy who can frame a house has a lot more
economic value, IMO, than somebody who understands all the history and
nuances of 17th Century French oil painting. (I must be a barbarian.)


The carpenters' union is pretty progressive and aggressive, two
attributes I admire in trade unions. It also works hard to expand its
turf into areas that either haven't been organized, or are loosely
organized by other unions.

Most people don't realize that even in the best of times, commercial
construction workers have periods of unemployment because of the
vagaries of the market. That's one of the reasons why their hourly rate
seems so high. They usually don't get the 50 weeks of work that other
working Americans "enjoy."

"HK" wrote in message
. ..


Most people don't realize that even in the best of times, commercial
construction workers have periods of unemployment because of the vagaries
of the market. That's one of the reasons why their hourly rate seems so
high. They usually don't get the 50 weeks of work that other working
Americans "enjoy."

Good point, and one I admit that I have not considered. However ....
don't union members get some sort of pay and benefits even when they are "in
between" jobs?

Eisboch

Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

Most people don't realize that even in the best of times, commercial
construction workers have periods of unemployment because of the vagaries
of the market. That's one of the reasons why their hourly rate seems so
high. They usually don't get the 50 weeks of work that other working
Americans "enjoy."

Good point, and one I admit that I have not considered. However ....
don't union members get some sort of pay and benefits even when they are "in
between" jobs?

Eisboch




Not in the construction union field, generally speaking. If they have
worked enough quarters, their health insurance might last until they
start working again. Most unionized construction workers average about
1200 work hours a year in typical times, a little more when times are
good. Weather plays a significant role in hours worked, too, especially
in the colder climes.

Now, in Florida, the hourly rates are significantly lower than up north,
because the weather is not an impediment.

HK wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
. ..

Most people don't realize that even in the best of times, commercial
construction workers have periods of unemployment because of the
vagaries of the market. That's one of the reasons why their hourly
rate seems so high. They usually don't get the 50 weeks of work that
other working Americans "enjoy."

Good point, and one I admit that I have not considered. However
.... don't union members get some sort of pay and benefits even when
they are "in between" jobs?

Eisboch



Not in the construction union field, generally speaking. If they have
worked enough quarters, their health insurance might last until they
start working again. Most unionized construction workers average about
1200 work hours a year in typical times, a little more when times are
good. Weather plays a significant role in hours worked, too, especially
in the colder climes.

Sounds like they need to get retail jobs for those rainy days.

Now, in Florida, the hourly rates are significantly lower than up north,
because the weather is not an impediment.

What about the cost of living? It is a hell of lot lower in Northern and
Mid Florida.

HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 24, 3:49�am, HK wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:21:17 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
The problem, at least here in CT, are the apprenticeship rules the
state adopted. �We have a top flight state tech school system and the
kids who go through the programs are motivated. �The problem with the
electrical/plumber programs comes after graduation. �Each licensed
plumber or electrician can only have one apprentice. �With dictated
pay scales and full benefits, plus mandated insurance costs, the
package costs the employer more than he can afford for each
apprentice. �So for independant electricians/plumbers are in a losing
proposition even if they want to take on apprentices. �Add in the time
required, even with school credits, to make Journeyman status and they
flat out can't afford it.
That is the "union problem".
They are like the medical establishment. They go out of their way to
limit the number of people in the business.
Ha! In the typical union model, the union runs the apprenticeship
programs for the three to five year course of study, depending upon the
trade, and once they complete the courses and training, they are
considered journeymen and are eligible to take the licensing
examinations. I'm not familiar with what Connecticut does, but the model
I cited is prevalent most other places. A decent number of young
apprentices enter the program after completing a 12-week Job Corps
program in which they learn basic "work" skills and a little bit about
the trades.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When the building boom was in full swing, maybe 12-18 months ago, the
carpenter's union was running advertisements trying to entice young
people to sign up for the apprenticeship program. They represented
that journeyman carpenters could earn a wage "consistent with most
college graduates", and regardless of the area of the country one
lives in and whatever the level of prevailing wages, that's probably
true. It should be. A guy who can frame a house has a lot more
economic value, IMO, than somebody who understands all the history and
nuances of 17th Century French oil painting. (I must be a barbarian.)


The carpenters' union is pretty progressive and aggressive, two
attributes I admire in trade unions. It also works hard to expand its
turf into areas that either haven't been organized, or are loosely
organized by other unions.

Why does a union have to do organizing? Shouldn't people be running to
the unions breaking down the doors to join?

Most people don't realize that even in the best of times, commercial
construction workers have periods of unemployment because of the
vagaries of the market. That's one of the reasons why their hourly rate
seems so high. They usually don't get the 50 weeks of work that other
working Americans "enjoy."

Really, they sound like contract workers in the high tech field. They
usually get paid more due to the fact that they can only count on
working 10 months a year and they have to pay for the full 15.5% of
SS/Medicare.