Gas prices and power boating
 

On 29 Apr 2007 15:36:35 -0700, wrote:

my children (the next generation of spenders)
and many or their peers are moving toward greener play across the
board. Kayaking (touring), indoor rock climbing, and bike trips are
big, vacations are no longer Daytona, but New Orleans for cleanup and
culture.

My kids are pretty much the same way with respect to other sports type
boating. All of them own kayacks (THE HORROR!!) and canoes. They
like my boats, but it just doensn't do much for them - they'd rather
participate in a more physical way. Which is great for them.

I know that locally, there are a quite a few fisherman who have
fishing kyacks and canoes with smallish electric motors. I'm a little
too big to use something like that, although now that the Princecraft
is down south, I might think that one through a little more. It's
tough to launch the Ranger on smaller ponds. However, with the
arthritis problems I have, a kayack or canoe is a little small for me
to be comfortable - not to mention that at 6'3" and now 235 (from 270)
that's a little cramped.

I've been thinking recently of getting one of those little Coleman
skiffs, a pontoon type boat I can throw in the back of the pickup or
even making one using cold molding techniques. I've got an extra
trailer (for the PWC one of the kids once owned) so it wouldn't be
that tough to handle a cold molded one.

I just had two of my kids return from New Orleans and I have several
friends who still live in New Orleans - according to them, it's a
freakin' wasteland and will never recover. Part of the town are in
decent shape apparently, like the French Quarter and parts of Metarie
(sp?), but the rest is just junk. I havne't been back since Katrina,
but I'm thinking of returning this summer just to see for myself.

Many of the local water ways are making provisions for much
smaller boats, and recreation and motor restrictions are getting
tougher every day. The overindulgent will still have their big boats,
but they will pay though the nose, be subjected to more restrictions,
and their numbers will drop due to financial attrition. I don't know
that the situation will ever improve for them from this point on. Once
the big manufacturers tool down, I don't see them coming back.

I think it's a little early to make that kind of determination, but I
take your point.

Gas prices and power boating
 

On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:57:04 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


wrote in message
oups.com...


Someone should tell the Gilmore Girls that viagra is a lot cheaper
than double diesels, and probably just as effective. Anyway, to
sherrif chuckies point, my children (the next generation of spenders)
and many or their peers are moving toward greener play across the
board. Kayaking (touring), indoor rock climbing, and bike trips are
big, vacations are no longer Daytona, but New Orleans for cleanup and
culture. Many of the local water ways are making provisions for much
smaller boats, and recreation and motor restrictions are getting
tougher every day. The overindulgent will still have their big boats,
but they will pay though the nose, be subjected to more restrictions,
and their numbers will drop due to financial attrition. I don't know
that the situation will ever improve for them from this point on. Once
the big manufacturers tool down, I don't see them coming back.


I am curious. What makes you think that a 20'-25' outboard or I/O powered
boat being used for it's intended purposes is any more fuel efficient than a
40'-50' twin diesel cruiser being used for it's intended purpose? The
truth may surprise you.

You know what was interesting to me on this whole twin engine deal I
did today?

We used less fuel (diesel) than I would have used on the Contender
doing the same kind of stuff.

On the other hand, the Contender would move a hell of a lot faster and
cruised higher than the Topaz's top end.

I think overall, the diesels would be cheaper in the long run, but you
just can't get the oommph you can with outboards. :)

Gas prices and power boating
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:57:04 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


wrote in message
roups.com...


Someone should tell the Gilmore Girls that viagra is a lot cheaper
than double diesels, and probably just as effective. Anyway, to
sherrif chuckies point, my children (the next generation of spenders)
and many or their peers are moving toward greener play across the
board. Kayaking (touring), indoor rock climbing, and bike trips are
big, vacations are no longer Daytona, but New Orleans for cleanup and
culture. Many of the local water ways are making provisions for much
smaller boats, and recreation and motor restrictions are getting
tougher every day. The overindulgent will still have their big boats,
but they will pay though the nose, be subjected to more restrictions,
and their numbers will drop due to financial attrition. I don't know
that the situation will ever improve for them from this point on. Once
the big manufacturers tool down, I don't see them coming back.


I am curious. What makes you think that a 20'-25' outboard or I/O powered
boat being used for it's intended purposes is any more fuel efficient than
a
40'-50' twin diesel cruiser being used for it's intended purpose? The
truth may surprise you.

You know what was interesting to me on this whole twin engine deal I
did today?

We used less fuel (diesel) than I would have used on the Contender
doing the same kind of stuff.

On the other hand, the Contender would move a hell of a lot faster and
cruised higher than the Topaz's top end.

I think overall, the diesels would be cheaper in the long run, but you
just can't get the oommph you can with outboards. :)


Ahh, you spoiled my carefully planned setup of " justwaitafrekinminute".

The difference is the speed at which you play. Consider the differences in
a couple of boat examples:

Boat "A": 25' something with a 225 hp gas outboard or a 300 hp I/O setup.
Boat displaces about 5K-6K lbs. With a couple of people aboard plus "stuff"
what is it's fuel burn at "cruise" which is probably 32-35 kts?

Boat "B": 50' something with twin, 370hp turbodiesels. Boat displaces
38k-40k lbs. With any legal number of people aboard plus all their "stuff"
what is it's fuel burn rate at "cruise" which is 18-19 kts?

Betcha Boat "B" (which is over 7 times heavier) is burning fuel at a
comparable rate to boat "A".

If so, which boat is more efficient?

Eisboch

Gas prices and power boating
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On 29 Apr 2007 15:36:35 -0700, wrote:

my children (the next generation of spenders)
and many or their peers are moving toward greener play across the
board. Kayaking (touring), indoor rock climbing, and bike trips are
big, vacations are no longer Daytona, but New Orleans for cleanup and
culture.

My kids are pretty much the same way with respect to other sports type
boating. All of them own kayacks (THE HORROR!!) and canoes. They
like my boats, but it just doensn't do much for them - they'd rather
participate in a more physical way. Which is great for them.

I know that locally, there are a quite a few fisherman who have
fishing kyacks and canoes with smallish electric motors. I'm a little
too big to use something like that, although now that the Princecraft
is down south, I might think that one through a little more. It's
tough to launch the Ranger on smaller ponds. However, with the
arthritis problems I have, a kayack or canoe is a little small for me
to be comfortable - not to mention that at 6'3" and now 235 (from 270)
that's a little cramped.

I've been thinking recently of getting one of those little Coleman
skiffs, a pontoon type boat I can throw in the back of the pickup or
even making one using cold molding techniques. I've got an extra
trailer (for the PWC one of the kids once owned) so it wouldn't be
that tough to handle a cold molded one.

I just had two of my kids return from New Orleans and I have several
friends who still live in New Orleans - according to them, it's a
freakin' wasteland and will never recover. Part of the town are in
decent shape apparently, like the French Quarter and parts of Metarie
(sp?), but the rest is just junk. I havne't been back since Katrina,
but I'm thinking of returning this summer just to see for myself.

Many of the local water ways are making provisions for much
smaller boats, and recreation and motor restrictions are getting
tougher every day. The overindulgent will still have their big boats,
but they will pay though the nose, be subjected to more restrictions,
and their numbers will drop due to financial attrition. I don't know
that the situation will ever improve for them from this point on. Once
the big manufacturers tool down, I don't see them coming back.

I think it's a little early to make that kind of determination, but I
take your point.

New Orleans proper will not ever be back to what it was. Both politics and
the land. At least they have cleaned up the 9th ward from all the destroyed
homes and business according to my neighbor who just came back while working
in Slidell for a Church Sponsored rebuilding of homes for the underinsured
and elderly. I was down there last June for Habitat for Humanity in
Slidell. Same time as the elections for mayor were going on. The people in
N.O. that remain are idiots! One said they were voting for Nagan. He had
only been in office 3 years and what could he have done. I had not been
back to N.O. since 1965, and you could see that even the French Quarter had
gotten a lot tackier since then. I used to enjoy weekends in N.O. while
stationed in Biloxi so saw it many times in that year. The Mississippi area
was devastated even more, and they are recovering a lot faster.

Gas prices and power boating
 

On Apr 29, 7:02 pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 29 Apr 2007 15:36:35 -0700, wrote:


I know that locally, there are a quite a few fisherman who have
fishing kyacks and canoes with smallish electric motors. I'm a little
too big to use something like that, although now that the Princecraft
is down south, I might think that one through a little more. It's
tough to launch the Ranger on smaller ponds. However, with the
arthritis problems I have, a kayack or canoe is a little small for me
to be comfortable - not to mention that at 6'3" and now 235 (from 270)
that's a little cramped.

I've been thinking recently of getting one of those little Coleman
skiffs, a pontoon type boat I can throw in the back of the pickup

I have seen guys your size try to function in boats that small. Many
times they either need a mate on board or I have even seen them use
sandbags just to keep the boat in a maneuverable attitude. Do yourself
a favor, save a lot of wasted money and test drive one a few times
first. And I trust you know better than to assume you will always be
in ideal conditions. I just don't think the pickup truck boat will do
the boating I assume you want to do. As to fishing canoes and kayaks,
I can't see them as being useful in any kind of adverse conditions at
all, especially if you want to fish and not swim and I can't really
imagine you crawling back into a necky. You may be stuck with a couple
of boats. I might try something under 20 feet (big low power skiff)
for inland trips, giving up speed and space on skinny water, but the
guys who still want to fish off shore won't have much of a choice,
unless you want to charter :( I know I may be presumptious here, but
the future is coming fast and many of us may need to make some serious
changes, real soon. Guess who the greenies will be after when they are
done with the SUV's?


I think it's a little early to make that kind of determination, but I
take your point.

Phew, I am trying to be more coherent and pithy here, even if I still
can't spell.

Gas prices and power boating
 

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
oups.com...


Down thread, somebody comments about the market returning to smaller
boats. I'm not sure that will be the result of this third straight
year of gas gouging. From what I can see, the small boat builders are
hurting even worse than the yacht manufacturers.

The guys in the big boats? They can afford the fuel.


Fuel prices affect everybody and I don't think the popularity of larger
boats is necessarily due to the ability to pay for the higher fuel costs.
In fact, I could argue a case that in these days of high prices, the larger
boat makes more sense to own .... and I say that having
experience owning small boats, bigger boats and everything in between. My
reasoning follows, but first a couple of definition stipulations.

What's a "small" boat? To me, (at the risk of a debate) a small boat is an
outboard or I/O
powered (single or twins) vessel of about 25 feet LOA or less. A "large"
boat to me is a diesel powered boat with an LOA of 40-50 feet or more. The
rest are "in betweens". (not discussing sailboats)

My reasoning:

1. In general, smaller boats are used more for fishing, skiing, tubing and
other single day boating activities. They usually are "go fast" boats and
burn quite a bit of fuel at or near WOT. So, other than the few that
putt-putt around for an afternoon, a weekend of typical boating activities
on a smaller boat
that require high throttle settings can be quite expensive at today's fuel
prices.

2. With the exception of some high performance sportsfish type boats, bigger
boats are more efficient in their fuel usage. They can carry more
people, more equipment, more overall "stuff" and the gallons burned per hour
won't change much due to load changes. Furthermore, big boats typically
aren't used for "go fast" afternoon recreational activities. A leisurely
cruise to a favorite port can be an all day pleasure trip for a number of
people at a relatively low fuel burn rate.

For example, at cruise speed (19 knots) our Navigator burns about 25 gallons
of diesel fuel per hour. This is on a boat that, loaded with fuel, water and
all our "stuff" probably displaces around 40,000 lbs. or more. If I drop
that speed down to 10-12 knots, I'll bet it burns less than half that.
Also, it holds 500 gallons of fuel, so we can go quite a while without
worrying about
where to get fuel.

3. My final point. A smaller boat is used, then hauled or tied up at a
slip until the next usage. There's not much else to do on it. It can be
washed quickly, maybe the owner can hang out for a while, but usually it's a
day event. A bigger boat has more to offer in terms of function, in my
opinion. I still enjoy spending 3 or 4 days or more at a time, several
times during the summer, "living" aboard the boat, either at the slip or
occasionally swinging on a mooring. I don't necessarily need to burn fuel
to enjoy it.

Often, I simply putter around doing maintenance chores during the day and
enjoying the occasional visits of others with boats at the marina or other
visiting friends. Then, when all but a few leave for home, the rest of us
enjoy the evening cool air shooting the
breeze or in quiet solitude if we choose. When it's time for sleep,
there's a very comfortable queen size bed awaiting. And .... in my opinion
..... there's nothing better than a cup of coffee in the morning while
watching the sun rise.

Then ... there's the fun of riding out the occasional storms.

Eisboch

Gas prices and power boating
 

snippage of comparison, small boats vs. large

Then ... there's the fun of riding out the occasional storms.

Eisboch

You make a bunch of great points. Not being retired yet I usually
don't think in terms of 4-5 day trips, and have never had a boat big
enough to use it as a "beach house". For us, waking up to hot coffee
and sunrise means we took the boat to a beach and pitched a tent.
Guess I don't know what I don't know. Hopefully by the time I retire
we will have this all figured out.

Gas prices and power boating
 

On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 20:10:38 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

Then ... there's the fun of riding out the occasional storms.

Booya!!!!!

Gas prices and power boating
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:57:04 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...

Someone should tell the Gilmore Girls that viagra is a lot cheaper
than double diesels, and probably just as effective. Anyway, to
sherrif chuckies point, my children (the next generation of spenders)
and many or their peers are moving toward greener play across the
board. Kayaking (touring), indoor rock climbing, and bike trips are
big, vacations are no longer Daytona, but New Orleans for cleanup and
culture. Many of the local water ways are making provisions for much
smaller boats, and recreation and motor restrictions are getting
tougher every day. The overindulgent will still have their big boats,
but they will pay though the nose, be subjected to more restrictions,
and their numbers will drop due to financial attrition. I don't know
that the situation will ever improve for them from this point on. Once
the big manufacturers tool down, I don't see them coming back.

I am curious. What makes you think that a 20'-25' outboard or I/O powered
boat being used for it's intended purposes is any more fuel efficient than
a
40'-50' twin diesel cruiser being used for it's intended purpose? The
truth may surprise you.
You know what was interesting to me on this whole twin engine deal I
did today?

We used less fuel (diesel) than I would have used on the Contender
doing the same kind of stuff.

On the other hand, the Contender would move a hell of a lot faster and
cruised higher than the Topaz's top end.

I think overall, the diesels would be cheaper in the long run, but you
just can't get the oommph you can with outboards. :)


Ahh, you spoiled my carefully planned setup of " justwaitafrekinminute".

The difference is the speed at which you play. Consider the differences in
a couple of boat examples:

Boat "A": 25' something with a 225 hp gas outboard or a 300 hp I/O setup.
Boat displaces about 5K-6K lbs. With a couple of people aboard plus "stuff"
what is it's fuel burn at "cruise" which is probably 32-35 kts?

Boat "B": 50' something with twin, 370hp turbodiesels. Boat displaces
38k-40k lbs. With any legal number of people aboard plus all their "stuff"
what is it's fuel burn rate at "cruise" which is 18-19 kts?

Betcha Boat "B" (which is over 7 times heavier) is burning fuel at a
comparable rate to boat "A".

If so, which boat is more efficient?

Eisboch




Your assumption is that Boat B is fully loaded with people and stuff.
Not often, I'd bet.

Boat A is similar to my Parker. I don't run it at 32-35 knots. I run at
23-27 knots under the right conditions, and keep my fuel burn "around"
10 gph. That's with four adults aboard. The gauge I watch most closely
is the ol' GPH meter. :}

At 40 mph, Yo Ho burns about 20 gph. No thanks.

Gas prices and power boating
 

On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:36:35 -0700, justwaitafrekinminute wrote:



Anyway, to sherrif
chuckies point, my children (the next generation of spenders) and many
or their peers are moving toward greener play across the board. Kayaking
(touring), indoor rock climbing, and bike trips are big, vacations are
no longer Daytona, but New Orleans for cleanup and culture.

Not trying to put a damper on your optimism, greener play is clearly a
good thing, but I wonder how much is purely due to age, and not a
different philosophy. I know my play activities were more physically
intensive, and less energy intensive, when I was in my twenties, than
they are now. I'd also point out most most twenty-year-olds, starting
out raising families, buying houses, etc. don't have the economic means
to be heavily involved in recreational boating. Did you ever wonder why
this newsgroup is populated with the middle-aged?