On 13 Mar, 02:36, wrote:

That galley rowing
all the time's a killer. Wikopedia says the Romans introduced it,

I've just read a biography of Boudica. That concurs that the Romans
were the first to come up with Galleys with multiple tiers of oars
giving a serious alternative power source. Designed for the first
'invasion' of Britain but first used to kick Gaul arse on the French/
Spanish Coast. It seems the technique was to load up the boats with
soldiers, wait for a flat calm then row about your opponent's (poorly
manned) stationary ships dealing with them one by one.

The Romans knew damn all about boats and damn all about seamanship
outside of the Med. Apparently they just copied their boats from the
Greeks, and added oars. Great example of fresh thinking, and coming up
with your own solution based on you strengths. Apparently there's no
evidence they were manned by slaves.

In article .com,
toad wrote:
On 13 Mar, 02:36, wrote:

That galley rowing
all the time's a killer. Wikopedia says the Romans introduced it,

I've just read a biography of Boudica. That concurs that the Romans
were the first to come up with Galleys with multiple tiers of oars
giving a serious alternative power source. Designed for the first

Not even nearly. Try the Greeks in the ~700-800 BCE era for two-tier
galleys (/probably/ the Ionian city-states). Triremes (three tiers) were
introduced (by Samos?) somewhere around or before 600 BCE and were the
most common "capital ships" until the Hellenistic period, after the
break-up of Alexander the Great's empire - the successor states then
began putting more than one man on an oar, leading eventually to galleys
with 20 men diposed on three vertically-tiered oars (Ptolemy IV went as
far as a catamaran galley with two "twentys" fastened together. A big, big
ship with plenty of oar power. Probably a brute to handle under sail,
though.

The big galleys vanished from sight after Actium, and by the time of the
Roman invasion of Britain (Claudius, not Caesar's raiding expeditions)
they were long gone - galleys of the Imperial period were small biremes
(Liburnians - two-deck galleys) and a few triremes - back to the Greek
ships of nearly 500 years before, in size at least.

http://www.amazon.com/Ships-Seamansh.../dp/0801851300

is probably the best general reference on the subject.

The Romans knew damn all about boats and damn all about seamanship
outside of the Med. Apparently they just copied their boats from the
Greeks, and added oars. Great example of fresh thinking, and coming up

Copied more from Carthegian designs than Greek - Greek ships were
still much bigger than the Roman or Cartheginian ships of that period.

--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

On 13 Mar, 14:01, (Andrew Robert Breen) wrote:
In article .com,

toad wrote:
On 13 Mar, 02:36, wrote:

That galley rowing
all the time's a killer. Wikopedia says the Romans introduced it,

I've just read a biography of Boudica. That concurs that the Romans
were the first to come up with Galleys with multiple tiers of oars
giving a serious alternative power source. Designed for the first

Not even nearly. Try the Greeks in the ~700-800 BCE era for two-tier
galleys (/probably/ the Ionian city-states). Triremes (three tiers) were
introduced (by Samos?) somewhere around or before 600 BCE and were the
most common "capital ships" until the Hellenistic period, after the
break-up of Alexander the Great's empire - the successor states then
began putting more than one man on an oar, leading eventually to galleys
with 20 men diposed on three vertically-tiered oars (Ptolemy IV went as
far as a catamaran galley with two "twentys" fastened together. A big, big
ship with plenty of oar power. Probably a brute to handle under sail,
though.

Probably my memory at fault.

The big galleys vanished from sight after Actium, and by the time of the
Roman invasion of Britain (Claudius, not Caesar's raiding expeditions)
they were long gone -

I'm pretty sure that's not the case. The same 3 tier ships were used
to put down Gaulish sailors by Claudius in preperation for his
invasion of Britain and that was well after Actium. 3 tier ships were
part of the equipment produced to invade Britain, IIRC before then the
Romans had no interest in seafaring outside of the Med. Ergo,
something designed especially for the invasion of Britain could not
have been obselete at the time of the invasion of Britain. (I think.)

In article . com,
toad wrote:
On 13 Mar, 14:01, (Andrew Robert Breen) wrote:
In article .com,

toad wrote:

I've just read a biography of Boudica. That concurs that the Romans
were the first to come up with Galleys with multiple tiers of oars
giving a serious alternative power source. Designed for the first

The big galleys vanished from sight after Actium, and by the time of the
Roman invasion of Britain (Claudius, not Caesar's raiding expeditions)
they were long gone -

I'm pretty sure that's not the case. The same 3 tier ships were used
to put down Gaulish sailors by Claudius in preperation for his
invasion of Britain and that was well after Actium. 3 tier ships were

Small triremes were (IIRC) used, though by AD 43 Gaullish resistance was
well-pacified (heck, by AD 43 I think Claudius had got the Senate to
accept Gauls as Senators... - or was that post-invasion once he had some
prestige to use). This may have been to do with the invasion fleet (like
the rest of the invasion force) having been assembled by Caligula, who
was a sucker for things which looked impressive.

Julius certainly used Triremes (and, I think, a few "fours" and "fives" -
two- and three- level ships with more than one man per oar) against the
Veneti fleet (of large, powerful sailing ships; not dissimilar so far as
can be told from the early-medieavel "Hulk") - the battles you're
describing sound more like those of the 50s BC than 43 AD. Julius' raids
were, of course, before Actium.

part of the equipment produced to invade Britain, IIRC before then the
Romans had no interest in seafaring outside of the Med. Ergo,
something designed especially for the invasion of Britain could not
have been obselete at the time of the invasion of Britain. (I think.)

It's possible that Caligula "re-invented" the Trireme for this. It's
amazing what you can claim when you're a God..

--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

toad wrote:
I've just read a biography of Boudica.

While we are on the pedantry trail - two Cs, or else you can't misread
it as Boadicea.

Andy

On 13 Mar, 19:39, Andy Champ wrote:
toad wrote:
I've just read a biography of Boudica.

While we are on the pedantry trail - two Cs, or else you can't misread
it as Boadicea.

Clue: It wasn't misread as Boadicea from an English language text.

The current English language spelling is as I wrote it. (http://
tinyurl.com/2rp6q2) Of course that's academic. Nobody knows if she
really existed. If she existed, nobody knows if she was really leader
of the rebellion or a smaller player. Nobody knows if Boudica was a
name or a title. Nobody knows how the name or title was spelt or what
it really meant. (Boudica probably translates as Victorious but nobody
knows.) Spellings of the name of the Iceni warrior Queen run into
dozens. Some completely unrecognizable as Boudica, some pretty
similar. Voudica is a similar one for instance.

In short, you can, with some credibility, spell the name/title of the
Iceni warrior Queen any way you wish. What you can't do with any
credibility is tell someone else how they should spell it.

toad wrote:
On 13 Mar, 19:39, Andy Champ wrote:
toad wrote:
I've just read a biography of Boudica.
While we are on the pedantry trail - two Cs, or else you can't misread
it as Boadicea.

Clue: It wasn't misread as Boadicea from an English language text.

The current English language spelling is as I wrote it. (http://
tinyurl.com/2rp6q2) Of course that's academic. Nobody knows if she
really existed. If she existed, nobody knows if she was really leader
of the rebellion or a smaller player. Nobody knows if Boudica was a
name or a title. Nobody knows how the name or title was spelt or what
it really meant. (Boudica probably translates as Victorious but nobody
knows.) Spellings of the name of the Iceni warrior Queen run into
dozens. Some completely unrecognizable as Boudica, some pretty
similar. Voudica is a similar one for instance.

In short, you can, with some credibility, spell the name/title of the
Iceni warrior Queen any way you wish. What you can't do with any
credibility is tell someone else how they should spell it.


Blimey! I'm outgunned!

I admit I haven't read the original sources. My understanding was that
Boadicea came out of a misreading of some 19th century academics
handwriting. This could easily be an urban legend - certainly Wikipedia
disagrees with me on that (and on the spelling...)

BTW Google hits count:
Boudicca 1,080,000
Boudica 260,000
Boadicea 324,000

which tends to say that "current English" is as I have it, even though
I'm wrong.

Still, this is Atrebates country, we wouldn't know about them Iceni lot...

Andy

Andy Champ wrote:
toad wrote:

On 13 Mar, 19:39, Andy Champ wrote:

toad wrote:

I've just read a biography of Boudica.

While we are on the pedantry trail - two Cs, or else you can't misread
it as Boadicea.


Clue: It wasn't misread as Boadicea from an English language text.

The current English language spelling is as I wrote it. (http://
tinyurl.com/2rp6q2) Of course that's academic. Nobody knows if she
really existed. If she existed, nobody knows if she was really leader
of the rebellion or a smaller player. Nobody knows if Boudica was a
name or a title. Nobody knows how the name or title was spelt or what
it really meant. (Boudica probably translates as Victorious but nobody
knows.) Spellings of the name of the Iceni warrior Queen run into
dozens. Some completely unrecognizable as Boudica, some pretty
similar. Voudica is a similar one for instance.

In short, you can, with some credibility, spell the name/title of the
Iceni warrior Queen any way you wish. What you can't do with any
credibility is tell someone else how they should spell it.


Blimey! I'm outgunned!

I admit I haven't read the original sources. My understanding was that
Boadicea came out of a misreading of some 19th century academics
handwriting. This could easily be an urban legend - certainly Wikipedia
disagrees with me on that (and on the spelling...)

BTW Google hits count:
Boudicca 1,080,000
Boudica 260,000
Boadicea 324,000

which tends to say that "current English" is as I have it, even though
I'm wrong.

Still, this is Atrebates country, we wouldn't know about them Iceni lot...

Andy

Wikipedia is not a reference source but a guide to possible reference
sources. Anyone can post anything there and some of what is there is not
accurate.
I am the reincarnation of Boadicea.

On 15 Mar, 20:19, Andy Champ wrote:
toad wrote:
On 13 Mar, 19:39, Andy Champ wrote:
toad wrote:
I've just read a biography of Boudica.
While we are on the pedantry trail - two Cs, or else you can't misread
it as Boadicea.

Clue: It wasn't misread as Boadicea from an English language text.
In short, you can, with some credibility, spell the name/title of the
Iceni warrior Queen any way you wish. What you can't do with any
credibility is tell someone else how they should spell it.

My understanding was that
Boadicea came out of a misreading of some 19th century academics
handwriting. This could easily be an urban legend - certainly Wikipedia
disagrees with me on that (and on the spelling...)

That's true apart from the date, but as a I said above, the mistake
was in translation _from_ ancient Latin. Hardly an indicator of modern
English.

which tends to say that "current English" is as I have it, even though
I'm wrong.

I didn't say you were wrong. _You_ were telling me _I_ was wrong.

toad wrote:

I didn't say you were wrong. _You_ were telling me _I_ was wrong.


Whoah, calm down. My knowledge of Latin is perhaps similar to Jennings:

"Latin is a language, as dead as dead can be. It killed the ancient
Romans, and now it's killing me".

Andy