Moby Dick wrote:
Thank you for the informative reply. You mention fiberglass versus
rotomolded plastic. However, I see many more materials on various web
pages:
Carbon
Kevlar
Fiberglass (as you mentioned)

These three are all forms of composite, with the major difference being
that carbon, Kevlar and carbon fiber/Kevlar boats are typically lighter
than the same model in fiberglass. They have the potential to be
stronger and/or stiffer, but most manufacturers use these materials to
cut weight instead.

Proprietary Lay-up (whatever that is)

It could be pretty much anything, but most likely it's marketing BS.
When you get right down to it, ALL layups (the number, shape, location,
material and order of the of the plies) are proprietary, since every
boat model is different, even from the same manufacturer. Some
manufactures incorporate polyester (Dynel, Diolene) or Nylon into their
layups for specific purposes, but it's nothing to get excited about.

Fabric-Skin frame (I can imagine)
Hypalon (whatever that is)

Skin-on-frame boats come in two basic types, commercial folding boats
and home-built (folding or non-folding). The frames are typically wood,
or aluminum tubing with wood or high UHMW polyethylene frames. The skins
on commercial boats are fabric that's pre-coated with Hypalon or
Neoprene, which is cut into panels that are glued together to form the
skin. Home built boats commonly use polyester or Nylon fabric sewn
around the frame and coated with polyurethane varnish, though neoprene
and Hypalon can be brushed on if desired. Pre-coated fabrics can be
used, but they're more expensive and harder to work with.

Functionally, the biggest differences between all these boats are
weight, cost and portability.

Commercial folding boats are the most expensive - commonly costing over
$4000 - and the most portable. Most tend to be on the short side (under
16') and rather wide, which limits their performance. Weight-wise,
they're in the same range as carbon fiber and Kevlar touring boats.

Boats built with carbon fiber and Kevlar are the next most expensive
(~$3000 - $3500) and are available in a broad range of designs. They
typically weigh between 5 and 15 pounds less than the same boat in
fiberglass and cost between $500 and $1000 more.

Fiberglass boats are the mainstay of the mid-upper end of the market.
They typically range from $1500-$2800. They're good workhorse boats that
can take a lot of abuse.

If you want to build a boat, you can make a skin-on-frame boat for under
$200. Stitch-&-glue and cedar strip boats can be built for under $500.

Is there a comparison of all these somewhere? TIA

Not that I've seen, but you might want to look on Kayak Wiki:

http://kayakwiki.org/index.php/Main_Page

Brian Nystrom wrote in news:FuLzh.2210$g82.2094
@trndny09:

Moby Dick wrote:
Thank you for the informative reply. You mention fiberglass versus
rotomolded plastic. However, I see many more materials on various web
pages: Carbon
Kevlar
Fiberglass (as you mentioned)

These three are all forms of composite, with the major difference being
that carbon, Kevlar and carbon fiber/Kevlar boats are typically lighter
than the same model in fiberglass. They have the potential to be
stronger and/or stiffer, but most manufacturers use these materials to
cut weight instead.

Basically, you've got to weight the criteria of having a boat that may be a
little easier to carry and load/unload off a vehicle with the difference in
price. Carbon/Kevlar boats may cost significantly more than a fiberglass
boat. On the water, most paddlers are unlikely to notice a signifcant
performance difference.


Proprietary Lay-up (whatever that is)

It could be pretty much anything, but most likely it's marketing BS.
When you get right down to it, ALL layups (the number, shape, location,
material and order of the of the plies) are proprietary, since every
boat model is different, even from the same manufacturer.

I'd have to disagree with that somewhat. Many of the "proprietary" layups
being touted are neither neither fiberglass nor rotomolded (poly), but some
other plastic or combination of materials.

Some
manufactures incorporate polyester (Dynel, Diolene) or Nylon into their
layups for specific purposes, but it's nothing to get excited about.

I also have mostly been unimpressed with most "proprietary layups". Many of
them "look" like fiberglass, and may be as light, but are not as stiff, nor
do they have the advantage of being easily repairable.


Functionally, the biggest differences between all these boats are
weight, cost and portability.

Commercial folding boats are the most expensive - commonly costing over
$4000 - and the most portable. Most tend to be on the short side (under
16') and rather wide, which limits their performance. Weight-wise,
they're in the same range as carbon fiber and Kevlar touring boats.

Boats built with carbon fiber and Kevlar are the next most expensive
(~$3000 - $3500) and are available in a broad range of designs. They
typically weigh between 5 and 15 pounds less than the same boat in
fiberglass and cost between $500 and $1000 more.

Fiberglass boats are the mainstay of the mid-upper end of the market.
They typically range from $1500-$2800. They're good workhorse boats that
can take a lot of abuse.

If you want to build a boat, you can make a skin-on-frame boat for under
$200. Stitch-&-glue and cedar strip boats can be built for under $500.

On the other hand, you can also buy pre-built cedar strip boats. I've seen
them advertized from several places in the 5 figure range.

My advic: Rent a few different boat to determine what kind of boat will
best meet your needs. Look at the used market, or dealers which sell off
their rental fleet at the end of the season.

The boat is just one piece of equipment you'll need. Don't spend all your
money on a better boat and leave little to spend on a paddle, PFD, clothing,
etc. That's especially true for a paddle.

John Fereira wrote:
On the other hand, you can also buy pre-built cedar strip boats. I've seen
them advertized from several places in the 5 figure range.

Do you really mean 5 figures, as in $10,000+ or 4 figures, the first of
which is a 5? I can agree with the second. Careta Boatworks makes a nice
stripper for ~$5000. I think Allen Sinquefield's baidarkas are quite a
bit less. http://www.sinquefieldcustomboatworks.com/index.htm

Of course, they're not in Sweden

Steve

Maybe he meant 5 figures in Swedish kroner.....


On Feb 11, 6:55 pm, Steve Cramer wrote:
John Fereira wrote:
On the other hand, you can also buy pre-built cedar strip boats. I've seen
them advertized from several places in the 5 figure range.

Do you really mean 5 figures, as in $10,000+ or 4 figures, the first of
which is a 5? I can agree with the second. Careta Boatworks makes a nice
stripper for ~$5000. I think Allen Sinquefield's baidarkas are quite a
bit less. http://www.sinquefieldcustomboatworks.com/index.htm

Of course, they're not in Sweden

Steve

"Moby Dick" wrote in
oups.com:

Maybe he meant 5 figures in Swedish kroner.....


Nope. Five figures in US dollars. I've seen a couple sites that custom
cedar strip boats with a price tag over $10,000. Here's one example:
http://www.cedar-strip.com/pages/services.html

On the other hand, I spent about $750 to build my cedar strip Outer Island


On Feb 11, 6:55 pm, Steve Cramer wrote:
John Fereira wrote:
On the other hand, you can also buy pre-built cedar strip boats.
I've seen them advertized from several places in the 5 figure range.

Do you really mean 5 figures, as in $10,000+ or 4 figures, the first
of which is a 5? I can agree with the second. Careta Boatworks makes a
nice stripper for ~$5000. I think Allen Sinquefield's baidarkas are
quite a bit less.
http://www.sinquefieldcustomboatworks.com/index.htm

Of course, they're not in Sweden

Steve

John Fereira wrote:
"Moby Dick" wrote in
oups.com:

Maybe he meant 5 figures in Swedish kroner.....


Nope. Five figures in US dollars. I've seen a couple sites that custom
cedar strip boats with a price tag over $10,000. Here's one example:
http://www.cedar-strip.com/pages/services.html

On the other hand, I spent about $750 to build my cedar strip Outer Island

Yes, but you were building a boat. The 12 kilobuck example there is
described as "An art exhibit and collector's item." I think you need to
be deeply into the conspicuous consumption mindset to buy a $12K kayak.
Don't think that's exactly what our friend Moby had in mind.

Steve

Usenet note: I seem to be middle posting here. There are groups where
top posting is preferred, I believe. My preference is to comment
directly below the statement I'm replying to.


On Feb 11, 6:55 pm, Steve Cramer wrote:
John Fereira wrote:
On the other hand, you can also buy pre-built cedar strip boats.
I've seen them advertized from several places in the 5 figure range.
Do you really mean 5 figures, as in $10,000+ or 4 figures, the first
of which is a 5? I can agree with the second. Careta Boatworks makes a
nice stripper for ~$5000. I think Allen Sinquefield's baidarkas are
quite a bit less.
http://www.sinquefieldcustomboatworks.com/index.htm

Of course, they're not in Sweden

Steve

On Feb 12, 12:53 pm, "Moby Dick" wrote:
Maybe he meant 5 figures in Swedish kroner.....



Or he was counting the cents. :-)

Sounds to me like you want to rent different boats until you've tried
out a dozen hulls, then make a decision based on personal preference
and experience. Don't fall into the trap that only the newest, best,
most expensive boat is acceptable; marketing hype is just that...hype.
Whatever works best for you is the best boat to have. And a good used
boat will hold its value a LOT longer than the newest rage.

--riverman