"Rich Schultz" wrote in message
. ..


snip

As to what to do in these conditions, there are as many forms of advice as
their are sailors. It is important to understand that you will probably
never, ever, encounter what are called survival conditions. I have been
in
squall lines with 50 plus knots. The boat does better than I do.
snip

Rich


That's a really good point Rich. In many cases the boat is just fine.
However the crew, through fear, are the ones who don't weather the storm. No
pun intended. Fear is natural. I have been scared for my life at sea only to
find that the boat was more than capable of handling the conditions. There
are well documented cases of people abandoning their boats only have the
boat found, at a later date, in a somewhat messy but seaworthy condition.

Farringtons "rescue in the pacific" has a couple of cases that are somewhat
questionable.
http://books.buyaustralian.com/featu...d=00 70486190

Its not for me to point any blame at the crews of a couple of these yachts.
Bbut its certainly worth the read to see just what happens to the human
psyche in extreme conditions.

Although a lot of "hollywood" was involved, you may remember the Perfect
Storm movie had a similar case, where the inexperienced crew panicked and
put in a mayday while the old salt skipper was more than comfortable in
those conditions. It would be good to know the truth about that scenario.

DP

That's a really good point Rich. In many cases the boat is just fine.
However the crew, through fear, are the ones who don't weather the storm. No
pun intended. Fear is natural. I have been scared for my life at sea only to
find that the boat was more than capable of handling the conditions. There
are well documented cases of people abandoning their boats only have the
boat found, at a later date, in a somewhat messy but seaworthy condition.

I read somewhere (sorry I can't remember where) that nearly half of all boats
that are abandoned in a storm are found later floating and in some kind of
working order. They were saying that the danger of abandoning the boat was
far greater than the danger of staying on board in at least half of those
conditions. One story I read the boat was taking on water and heeling so
much that the bilge pump wouldn't pump out any water. It was about three
feet deep in the cabin. The boat was found later with the pump running on
batteries after a week or so and no water inside to speak of. The
investigation says that the captain trying to steer the boat in such heavy
winds caused it to heel so muh and caused most of the problems they were
having. Jumping ino the ocean during a storm to be rescued was much more
dangerous than staying on a boat that was floating around for over a week
with no problems that would be life threatening. I am really curious as to
what they could have done differently. It seems that the people that trust
thier boat and thier ability to survive tend to do so much more than those
that can't handle the ride.

--
Message posted via BoatKB.com
http://www.boatkb.com/Uwe/Forums.asp...iling/200701/1

"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message
news:6c0106ae25519@uwe...
That's a really good point Rich. In many cases the boat is just fine.
However the crew, through fear, are the ones who don't weather the storm.
No
pun intended. Fear is natural. I have been scared for my life at sea only
to
find that the boat was more than capable of handling the conditions. There
are well documented cases of people abandoning their boats only have the
boat found, at a later date, in a somewhat messy but seaworthy condition.

I read somewhere (sorry I can't remember where) that nearly half of all
boats
that are abandoned in a storm are found later floating and in some kind of
working order. They were saying that the danger of abandoning the boat
was
far greater than the danger of staying on board in at least half of those
conditions. One story I read the boat was taking on water and heeling so
much that the bilge pump wouldn't pump out any water. It was about three
feet deep in the cabin. The boat was found later with the pump running on
batteries after a week or so and no water inside to speak of. The
investigation says that the captain trying to steer the boat in such heavy
winds caused it to heel so muh and caused most of the problems they were
having. Jumping ino the ocean during a storm to be rescued was much more
dangerous than staying on a boat that was floating around for over a week
with no problems that would be life threatening. I am really curious as
to
what they could have done differently. It seems that the people that
trust
thier boat and thier ability to survive tend to do so much more than those
that can't handle the ride.

There is an old saying that "you always step up into a liferaft" . In
otherwords dont get off the boat untill you are sure its going down. The
term "liferaft" conjours up some romantic belief that all will be well once
you get in. Far from it. They can capsize. Sea sickness can set in much
faster. They are harder to spot from the air. They are a smaller target to
fire a heaving line too. Items ( like the grab bag) are more easily lost
overboard. The list goes on. Using the liferaft is the "last" thing a
skipper should consider.

On a side note. Always make sure your grab back is bouyant. For instance
water bottles should not be full and should have lanyards. Then they will
float and not sink if lost overboard.

Its hard to comment on your story of the foundering yacht without more info.
But it makes sense that if the boat is heeling too far the pumps may not
work. Buckets. although more tiring, are far more effecient than manual
bilge pumps. Electric pumps are great if you still have power.

DP

There is an old saying that "you always step up into a liferaft" . In
otherwords dont get off the boat untill you are sure its going down.

In this case the Coast Gaurd had ordered them off the boat but they had made
a mayday call and had no idea what to do.

term "liferaft" conjours up some romantic belief that all will be well once
you get in. Far from it. They can capsize. Sea sickness can set in much
faster. They are harder to spot from the air. They are a smaller target to
fire a heaving line too. Items ( like the grab bag) are more easily lost
overboard. The list goes on. Using the liferaft is the "last" thing a
skipper should consider.

They got lucky. The skippers son was a competative swimmer at the time and
was the only one able to make it to the life and get in unaided. Everyone
else needed help from him getting in. They would have all drowned if it
wasn't for him.

On a side note. Always make sure your grab back is bouyant. For instance
water bottles should not be full and should have lanyards. Then they will
float and not sink if lost overboard.

Excellent idea. Do they make them with floats in them or other means to keep
them afloat or do you have to make sure of that yourself after you equip it?

Its hard to comment on your story of the foundering yacht without more info.
But it makes sense that if the boat is heeling too far the pumps may not
work. Buckets. although more tiring, are far more effecient than manual
bilge pumps. Electric pumps are great if you still have power.

They had power that lasted another week but their hull was leaking at the
seal between the deck and the side. I don't think the boat was capable of
the trip but even so it mannaged to survive even after they jumped off.

Needless to say, before I attempt a real blue water trip I will need to know
what the boat can handle and how to trust in that.

Does anyone recommend taking your boat out in bad weather on purpose, locally,
in order to test the boat and your abilities? I know there are classes in
this but if you are capable and experienced, do you go out to test the boat
and check for leaks and such with prior notification to CG or anything like
that? It seems like a lot of problems could be fixed before someone sets out
for a longer voyage if they have been through it on purpose at least once.

Bill

--
Message posted via http://www.boatkb.com

"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message
news:6c017a6e846c1@uwe...
There is an old saying that "you always step up into a liferaft" . In
otherwords dont get off the boat untill you are sure its going down.

In this case the Coast Gaurd had ordered them off the boat but they had
made
a mayday call and had no idea what to do.

Hmm.. sounds like it was Pan Pan situation not a mayday.

DP

"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message
news:6c017a6e846c1@uwe...


snip

On a side note. Always make sure your grab back is bouyant. For instance
water bottles should not be full and should have lanyards. Then they will
float and not sink if lost overboard.

Excellent idea. Do they make them with floats in them or other means to
keep
them afloat or do you have to make sure of that yourself after you equip
it?

snip


There are floating ones available like this
http://www.whitworths.com.au/main_it...AbsolutePage=3

However there is not a great deal of room in them. There would be nothing
wrong with useing something larger and adding some closed cell foam inside.

DP

"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message
news:6c017a6e846c1@uwe...
There is an old saying that "you always step up into a liferaft" . In

snip

Needless to say, before I attempt a real blue water trip I will need to
know
what the boat can handle and how to trust in that.

Does anyone recommend taking your boat out in bad weather on purpose,
locally,
in order to test the boat and your abilities? I know there are classes in
this but if you are capable and experienced, do you go out to test the
boat
and check for leaks and such with prior notification to CG or anything
like
that? It seems like a lot of problems could be fixed before someone sets
out
for a longer voyage if they have been through it on purpose at least once.


Absolutely! But within reason. Certainly not in 50+ knots close to a lee
shore. But next time your out why not reef down and see how you ride out an
oncoming storm. Everyone gets caught in them. So you might as well get used
to them.

Even though it was only inshore, we managed to race an entire series in
winds over 30 knots on extremely lightweight 24 ft trailer yachts a few
years back. There was minimal damage as most people raced conservatively
instead of pushing their boats as they would have in 20-25 knots. Of course
storms at sea are much more difficult. But on the safety of a lake or
harbour you are able to test your systems without risking your life too
much.

DP

Absolutely! But within reason. Certainly not in 50+ knots close to a lee
shore. But next time your out why not reef down and see how you ride out an
oncoming storm. Everyone gets caught in them. So you might as well get used
to them.

Even though it was only inshore, we managed to race an entire series in
winds over 30 knots on extremely lightweight 24 ft trailer yachts a few
years back. There was minimal damage as most people raced conservatively
instead of pushing their boats as they would have in 20-25 knots. Of course
storms at sea are much more difficult. But on the safety of a lake or
harbour you are able to test your systems without risking your life too
much.

That sounds like so much fun. I'll remember to take my boat out in some
harsher conditions, when I get one, to practice before I really go anywhere.
Thanks for the advice.

Bill

--
Message posted via BoatKB.com
http://www.boatkb.com/Uwe/Forums.asp...iling/200701/1

"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message
news:6c090f4cc9cc4@uwe...
Absolutely! But within reason. Certainly not in 50+ knots close to a lee
shore. But next time your out why not reef down and see how you ride out
an
oncoming storm. Everyone gets caught in them. So you might as well get
used
to them.

Even though it was only inshore, we managed to race an entire series in
winds over 30 knots on extremely lightweight 24 ft trailer yachts a few
years back. There was minimal damage as most people raced conservatively
instead of pushing their boats as they would have in 20-25 knots. Of
course
storms at sea are much more difficult. But on the safety of a lake or
harbour you are able to test your systems without risking your life too
much.

That sounds like so much fun. I'll remember to take my boat out in some
harsher conditions, when I get one, to practice before I really go
anywhere.
Thanks for the advice.

Bill


I will assume by your posts that you havent had a great deal of experience
at all yet. Certainly dont go out in a "blow" intentionally for at least 12
months, unless you have an experienced sailor/s on board with you. By
experienced, I also mean one that has sailed your type or similar before.
Its no good getting the world champion dinghy sailor on board if he has
never sailed a yacht before.

I would highly recomend doing some proper courses too. Your national yaching
association will be able to assist in finding the right school..

DP

D Parker wrote:
....

On a side note. Always make sure your grab back is bouyant. For instance
water bottles should not be full and should have lanyards. Then they will
float and not sink if lost overboard.


My Father-in-Law spent 18 days in a lifeboat when his tanker got
torpedoed off of The Cape Verde Islands at the end of WWII. The
emergency radio sank when it was dropped getting into the boat! Even
if the transmitter was not strong enough to reach anyone, the receiver
would have provided time signals for determining Longitude. As it
turned out, my FiL was the radio officer, and had calibrated his
watch, which survived.

After 13 days they reached Tobago but were afraid to make a night
approach, and ended up drifting by. They were picked up near Curacao
5 days later.