I think that we are talking apples and oranges, but I sent out a note on
the local club email list, and a couple of emails came back. One
offered a Mohawk XL13 for $600, said it was outfitted and in like new
condition. Another said he had an Encore he was not using, but did not
mention a price.

My impression is the following: The XL13 is a beginner whitewater boat,
but would probably work OK for tripping. The XL13 presumably would be a
noticeably better whitewater boat than my Camper, but not as nice as an
Outrage X or Prodigy X. The Encore is a classic solo whitewater boat,
probably an older design. I think that the Encore is around 13 feet
long, although the info on the web is limited and contradictory.

Not sure if any other boats will pop up. The XL13 is a good deal, if it
is in good condition, but I wanted a little more boat.

Richard



--
http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals

$600 seems a little steep for the XL. Although a mainly a WW kayaker, I have
a couple of XL-13's. It is a great first timers WW boat, but alot of people
keep them, also paddled an OutrageX a few times. It was lighter, and handled
very well, but I really like the XL......


"Richard Ferguson" wrote in message
...
I think that we are talking apples and oranges, but I sent out a note on
the local club email list, and a couple of emails came back. One
offered a Mohawk XL13 for $600, said it was outfitted and in like new
condition. Another said he had an Encore he was not using, but did not
mention a price.

My impression is the following: The XL13 is a beginner whitewater boat,
but would probably work OK for tripping. The XL13 presumably would be a
noticeably better whitewater boat than my Camper, but not as nice as an
Outrage X or Prodigy X. The Encore is a classic solo whitewater boat,
probably an older design. I think that the Encore is around 13 feet
long, although the info on the web is limited and contradictory.

Not sure if any other boats will pop up. The XL13 is a good deal, if it
is in good condition, but I wanted a little more boat.

Richard



--
http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals

I bought a new XL14 in 1990 for about $550, so one that's at least 10
years old for $600 doesn't sound like much of a bargain. If the entire
trip is Class II-III, the XL13 might be reasonable, but it's quite slow
and displaces a lot of water.


Richard Ferguson wrote:
I think that we are talking apples and oranges, but I sent out a note on
the local club email list, and a couple of emails came back. One
offered a Mohawk XL13 for $600, said it was outfitted and in like new
condition. Another said he had an Encore he was not using, but did not
mention a price.

My impression is the following: The XL13 is a beginner whitewater boat,
but would probably work OK for tripping. The XL13 presumably would be a
noticeably better whitewater boat than my Camper, but not as nice as an
Outrage X or Prodigy X. The Encore is a classic solo whitewater boat,
probably an older design. I think that the Encore is around 13 feet
long, although the info on the web is limited and contradictory.

Not sure if any other boats will pop up. The XL13 is a good deal, if it
is in good condition, but I wanted a little more boat.

Richard





--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Hi Richard,

These were both whitewater designs from the early 1990s. The Encore
was the "hot" boat back then - the one used by "expert" paddlers, and
is still a loved and revered design. The XL13 was the beginner boat.
The XL13 would probably make the better tripping boat.

On Nov 24, 3:55*pm, "Mothra" wrote:
Hi Richard,

These were both whitewater designs from the early 1990s. *The Encore
was the "hot" boat back then - the one used by "expert" paddlers, and
is still a loved and revered design. *The XL13 was the beginner boat.
The XL13 would probably make the better tripping boat.

I'll have to disagree with that statement. Both boats were developed
around the same time and the performance of both boats are very
similar. The XL13 is slower but has better secondary stability and was
always my choice of OC1's for big water. The Encore is a bit faster and
a bit narrower in the mid section, which made offside strokes a hair
easier. It is a wetter boat that the XL13, but not by much. The
carrying capacity of both boats would be nearly identical.

Even the Impulse was not a huge improvement on either boat.

The XL13 became a beginner boat because Mohawk continued to make this
boat well into the era of the much shorter and harder chined boats like
the Ocoee and Viper.

BTW, both boats were being made before 1990.

Larry

Gotta differ with you on one count, Larry; the Impulse was a serious step
back from the Encore. It was Dagger's attempt to placate the beginner
boater who would flip the Encore trying to get in the thing. For an
experienced OC1er the Encore was (and still is) a far superior hull to the
Impulse. Both the Impulse, and its larger partner in crime, the Genesis
(though the first canoe I ever rolled, I have no respect for its slug-like
qualities) were beginner-only boats (if you think it wise to give a kid dull
scissors if you hope he'll grow up to be a tailor).

Richard, just because the Encore was "an earlier design", don't discount it.
Dagger regularly dropped their better hulls for something newer and "more
stable", such as their High Noon kayak series for the GX kayaks, which were
dumbed down and nowhere near as playful as the HNs, but were easier for
beginner paddlers to feel comfortable in right away. Whatever sells is not
necessarily what makes a good boat. Dagger didn't remedy their lack of good
OC1s until the Rival and Ocoee Meanwhile, Mad River corked them with the
Outrage, a fine class III/IV canoe, despite that damn Mad River logo, and
MR's plastic cracking in the cold.

The XL-13 was always far behind in solo whitewater qualities to even the
Genesis, which Mohawk corrected when they produced the Viper. It had no
edge, little rocker, too shallow, and was too wide for quick offside x-bow
jabs. It could make a good class II solo tripper, but for empty play, I'd
leave it in the weeds.

Brad Snow
s/v Aldonza



"Larry C" wrote in message
ups.com...


On Nov 24, 3:55pm, "Mothra" wrote:
Hi Richard,

These were both whitewater designs from the early 1990s. The Encore
was the "hot" boat back then - the one used by "expert" paddlers, and
is still a loved and revered design. The XL13 was the beginner boat.
The XL13 would probably make the better tripping boat.

I'll have to disagree with that statement. Both boats were developed
around the same time and the performance of both boats are very
similar. The XL13 is slower but has better secondary stability and was
always my choice of OC1's for big water. The Encore is a bit faster and
a bit narrower in the mid section, which made offside strokes a hair
easier. It is a wetter boat that the XL13, but not by much. The
carrying capacity of both boats would be nearly identical.

Even the Impulse was not a huge improvement on either boat.

The XL13 became a beginner boat because Mohawk continued to make this
boat well into the era of the much shorter and harder chined boats like
the Ocoee and Viper.

BTW, both boats were being made before 1990.

Larry

Hey there, Brad,

The interesting thing about "Dagger didn't remedy their lack of good
OC1s until the Rival..." is that both the Genesis and the Rival were
designed by Bob Foote. The third (in temporal order) of his designs I
am familiar with was the Phantom, and it was awful. The fourth is my
present boat, the Bell Prodigy (mine is an "X"), and it is the best
whitewater canoe I've ever paddled. Seems like Foote alternates great
boats (Rival, Prodigy) with dogs (Genesis, Phantom). I might tend to
avoid his next design!

How 'bout starting a new thread telling us where you are now, and how
you got there?

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
.. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
.. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
.. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
.. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================


padeen wrote:
Gotta differ with you on one count, Larry; the Impulse was a serious step
back from the Encore. It was Dagger's attempt to placate the beginner
boater who would flip the Encore trying to get in the thing. For an
experienced OC1er the Encore was (and still is) a far superior hull to the
Impulse. Both the Impulse, and its larger partner in crime, the Genesis
(though the first canoe I ever rolled, I have no respect for its slug-like
qualities) were beginner-only boats (if you think it wise to give a kid dull
scissors if you hope he'll grow up to be a tailor).

Richard, just because the Encore was "an earlier design", don't discount it.
Dagger regularly dropped their better hulls for something newer and "more
stable", such as their High Noon kayak series for the GX kayaks, which were
dumbed down and nowhere near as playful as the HNs, but were easier for
beginner paddlers to feel comfortable in right away. Whatever sells is not
necessarily what makes a good boat. Dagger didn't remedy their lack of good
OC1s until the Rival and Ocoee Meanwhile, Mad River corked them with the
Outrage, a fine class III/IV canoe, despite that damn Mad River logo, and
MR's plastic cracking in the cold.

The XL-13 was always far behind in solo whitewater qualities to even the
Genesis, which Mohawk corrected when they produced the Viper. It had no
edge, little rocker, too shallow, and was too wide for quick offside x-bow
jabs. It could make a good class II solo tripper, but for empty play, I'd
leave it in the weeds.

Brad Snow
s/v Aldonza



"Larry C" wrote in message
ups.com...


On Nov 24, 3:55pm, "Mothra" wrote:
Hi Richard,

These were both whitewater designs from the early 1990s. The Encore
was the "hot" boat back then - the one used by "expert" paddlers, and
is still a loved and revered design. The XL13 was the beginner boat.
The XL13 would probably make the better tripping boat.

I'll have to disagree with that statement. Both boats were developed
around the same time and the performance of both boats are very
similar. The XL13 is slower but has better secondary stability and was
always my choice of OC1's for big water. The Encore is a bit faster and
a bit narrower in the mid section, which made offside strokes a hair
easier. It is a wetter boat that the XL13, but not by much. The
carrying capacity of both boats would be nearly identical.

Even the Impulse was not a huge improvement on either boat.

The XL13 became a beginner boat because Mohawk continued to make this
boat well into the era of the much shorter and harder chined boats like
the Ocoee and Viper.

BTW, both boats were being made before 1990.

Larry

Hello Richard,
Very glad to hear you're still upgrading and running rivers. The Prodigy
looks great; would love to try one sometime. Did you ever try an Esquif?
They've made a big push for the market but I haven't heard about one from
anyone whose opinion I'd respect. Is Kelly still paddling?

I've been out of my kayak for a few years now, with the exception of a few
days in the upper Gulkana canyon this last August, and that felt really
lousy as I didn't have the time I needed to get my edge back. I've been
living on Aldonza, a 38' 1978 Hans Christian cutter I bought last October
(2005) in the Port Townsend, Washington area, working on her systems and
accutriments for the planned route south next summer. I'd originally
planned to leave this fall but didn't get everything done, and I'm in no
real hurry. As a bonus I hope to spend the spring and early summer on a
trip to Alaska via the inland passage along the BC coast.

This winter I'll spend Christmas at my sister's in Steamboat Springs,
Colorado, after the New Year in Arizona for a week, then on to Louisiana to
do a month of volunteer work for Katrina rehab before returning to Port
Townsend. Doubt I'll take my kayak as the skiing is great in Steamboat, but
I'll try to find some way of getting on the flat water in Louisiana.

Still riding your cycle?

Brad Snow
s/v Aldonza


"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hey there, Brad,

The interesting thing about "Dagger didn't remedy their lack of good
OC1s until the Rival..." is that both the Genesis and the Rival were
designed by Bob Foote. The third (in temporal order) of his designs I
am familiar with was the Phantom, and it was awful. The fourth is my
present boat, the Bell Prodigy (mine is an "X"), and it is the best
whitewater canoe I've ever paddled. Seems like Foote alternates great
boats (Rival, Prodigy) with dogs (Genesis, Phantom). I might tend to
avoid his next design!

How 'bout starting a new thread telling us where you are now, and how
you got there?

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================


padeen wrote:
Gotta differ with you on one count, Larry; the Impulse was a serious step
back from the Encore. It was Dagger's attempt to placate the beginner
boater who would flip the Encore trying to get in the thing. For an
experienced OC1er the Encore was (and still is) a far superior hull to
the
Impulse. Both the Impulse, and its larger partner in crime, the Genesis
(though the first canoe I ever rolled, I have no respect for its
slug-like
qualities) were beginner-only boats (if you think it wise to give a kid
dull
scissors if you hope he'll grow up to be a tailor).

Richard, just because the Encore was "an earlier design", don't discount
it.
Dagger regularly dropped their better hulls for something newer and "more
stable", such as their High Noon kayak series for the GX kayaks, which
were
dumbed down and nowhere near as playful as the HNs, but were easier for
beginner paddlers to feel comfortable in right away. Whatever sells is
not
necessarily what makes a good boat. Dagger didn't remedy their lack of
good
OC1s until the Rival and Ocoee Meanwhile, Mad River corked them with the
Outrage, a fine class III/IV canoe, despite that damn Mad River logo, and
MR's plastic cracking in the cold.

The XL-13 was always far behind in solo whitewater qualities to even the
Genesis, which Mohawk corrected when they produced the Viper. It had no
edge, little rocker, too shallow, and was too wide for quick offside
x-bow
jabs. It could make a good class II solo tripper, but for empty play,
I'd
leave it in the weeds.

Brad Snow
s/v Aldonza



"Larry C" wrote in message
ups.com...


On Nov 24, 3:55pm, "Mothra" wrote:
Hi Richard,

These were both whitewater designs from the early 1990s. The Encore
was the "hot" boat back then - the one used by "expert" paddlers, and
is still a loved and revered design. The XL13 was the beginner boat.
The XL13 would probably make the better tripping boat.

I'll have to disagree with that statement. Both boats were developed
around the same time and the performance of both boats are very
similar. The XL13 is slower but has better secondary stability and was
always my choice of OC1's for big water. The Encore is a bit faster and
a bit narrower in the mid section, which made offside strokes a hair
easier. It is a wetter boat that the XL13, but not by much. The
carrying capacity of both boats would be nearly identical.

Even the Impulse was not a huge improvement on either boat.

The XL13 became a beginner boat because Mohawk continued to make this
boat well into the era of the much shorter and harder chined boats like
the Ocoee and Viper.

BTW, both boats were being made before 1990.

Larry

Thanks for the comments so far. The emails keep coming in, with more
boat offers, listed below. I will go see the Encore tomorrow, probably
the best deal, depending on what he wants for it. I will probably offer
$300. If I don't like the Encore, the XL13 sounds like the next best
deal, due to condition. Some of the boats offered to me are clearly
unsuitable or overpriced.

Dagger Encore - 13.2 feet, classic solo whitewater boat, Jeff in
Boulder. Has a black plastic saddle, never mounted. He paid $500 for
it, would take less.

Mohawk XL13 - beginner whitewater boat, new condition, rigged, for $600.
John in Denver.

Wenonah Rendevous Kevlar - $1400, too much money.

Ocoee - too radical

Old Town H2Pro - Fran in Steamboat.

Dagger Impulse - 12’ 8”, mixed reviews. $550, Gail, needs new flotation
bags.

Blue Hole - model unknown, 15 or 16 feet long $600-700,


Richard Ferguson wrote:
I think that we are talking apples and oranges, but I sent out a note on
the local club email list, and a couple of emails came back. One
offered a Mohawk XL13 for $600, said it was outfitted and in like new
condition. Another said he had an Encore he was not using, but did not
mention a price.

My impression is the following: The XL13 is a beginner whitewater boat,
but would probably work OK for tripping. The XL13 presumably would be a
noticeably better whitewater boat than my Camper, but not as nice as an
Outrage X or Prodigy X. The Encore is a classic solo whitewater boat,
probably an older design. I think that the Encore is around 13 feet
long, although the info on the web is limited and contradictory.

Not sure if any other boats will pop up. The XL13 is a good deal, if it
is in good condition, but I wanted a little more boat.

Richard





--
http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals

The Old Town H2Pro is an absolute classic and would be WONDERFUL for
tripping. It's kind of a "mix" between the XL13 and the Encore. More
nimble in handling than the XL and will carry a huge payload. Grab
this boat if you can get it.

Also, if the "Blue Hole" is a solo canoe, it's probably the Sunburst
I've been raving about and would be PERFECT for whitewater tripping.
Blue Hole is an absolute classic!