"DSK" wrote in message
news
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/...608200322/1002

All this time, I thought Republicans believed in states rights.


NOYB wrote:
Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Bush got criticized to holy hell for not responding more quickly after
Katrina. And now you're citing an article that states unequivocally that
Gov. Blanco resisted the White House's urging to turn control of the
guard over to Federal authority!?!


Why was Federal aid to the area struck by Hurricane Katrina contingent
upon turning over authority over the National Guard?

Are you saying you support this fascist power grab by the Bush
Administration, and offer up it's failure as a serious reason why they
should not have bothered sending the various federal agencies to actually
do their job?

The federal agencies are incapable of handling a crisis of that magnitude
without the help of the military (active duty, reservists, or the guard).
It wouldn't be feasible to keep a federal agency of large enough size at the
ready in case of an emergency like Katrina. That's the purpose of the
Guard.

So there were two problems:

1) the posse comitatus act prevented Bush from sending US troops

2) Gov. Blanco refused to allow Bush to have authority over Guard troops.

So how was Bush supposed to handle the Katrina crisis?

I look forward to how you'd have handled things differently.





I think the President ought to have the authority to take over the
National Guard during "a serious natural or man-made disaster, accident,
or catastrophe that occurs in the United States, its territories and
possessions, or Puerto Rico." Afterall, the Guard is paid for by revenue
from Federal taxes.


Of course. One might surmise from your attitude that you feel President
Bush ought to be declared Dictator-For-Life... you almost certainly would
not support turning any authority over to a Democrat President.

After a crisis like Katrina? Of course I would...especially if the Guard is
in the hands of an inept Governor.

As long as guys like Jeb Bush and Charlie Crist are in charge down here,
there's no need for Federal control of the guard in Florida. Unfortunately
that's not the case in many states.

Here's the funny thing:
The fact that you're making up excuses just goes to show
that you agree President Bush was absent and/or incompetent
in providing leadership after Hurricane Katrina.

Are you saying you support this fascist power grab by the Bush
Administration, and offer up it's failure as a serious reason why they
should not have bothered sending the various federal agencies to actually
do their job?


NOYB wrote:
The federal agencies are incapable of handling a crisis of that magnitude
without the help of the military (active duty, reservists, or the guard).

Is that an excuse for not bothering to activate gov't
civilian aid agencies, most of which were standing around
for a week before getting their asses in gear?


It wouldn't be feasible to keep a federal agency of large enough size at the
ready in case of an emergency like Katrina.

Is that an excuse for not directing those agencies already
in existence, and already paid for, to get to work soon
after a catastrophe? Or for that matter, two days in advance
when it becomes obvious that a really big catastrophe is
about to happen?





So there were two problems:

1) the posse comitatus act prevented Bush from sending US troops


But it din't prevent him from sending others.
Furthermore, regular U.S. military can be (and have been)
used for disaster relief.


2) Gov. Blanco refused to allow Bush to have authority over Guard troops.

So how was Bush supposed to handle the Katrina crisis?


By sending people other than the National Guard

I look forward to how you'd have handled things differently.


Let's put it this way... the U.S. Coast Guard was *there*
that very afternoon.

Of course, the Coast Guard has leadership. The other Federal
agencies have President Bush.

You figure it out.


As long as guys like Jeb Bush and Charlie Crist are in charge down here,
there's no need for Federal control of the guard in Florida.

That must be why Jeb Bush is against turning over authority
over the Guard to the President.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
...
..

So how was Bush supposed to handle the Katrina crisis?


By sending people other than the National Guard

LOL. So who are these imaginary people that you would send? The military is
off-limits thanks to Posse Comitatus, and the National Guard is off-limits
thanks to Gov. Blanco's refusal to hand them over to the President.

Where would you find the people you speak of?





I look forward to how you'd have handled things differently.


Let's put it this way... the U.S. Coast Guard was *there* that very
afternoon.


The Commandant of the Coast Guard reports directly to Homeland Security.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Org_Chart.jpg

The Coast Guard was transferred from the Dept. of Transportation to the DHS
on March 1st, 2003:
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/comrel/factfile/index.htm

Katrina hit 2 years later.

Good try though!

So how was Bush supposed to handle the Katrina crisis?


By sending people other than the National Guard


NOYB wrote:
LOL. So who are these imaginary people that you would send?

Are you seriously suggesting that the National Guard is the
only resource for disaster relief? What about FEMA?



.... The military is
off-limits thanks to Posse Comitatus

For use as police forces, yes. For disaster relief, no.
Let me remind you that the U.S. Navy was quite prominent in
sending ships, including a hospital ship, to the relief of
disaster victims. But they didn't get orders until the
Friday after Katrina had hit... a full working week.


and the National Guard is off-limits
thanks to Gov. Blanco's refusal to hand them over to the President.


Which was totally legal & proper, according to Governor Jeb
Bush.

Where would you find the people you speak of?


Start at the FEMA office and work my way down the hall.

Here's a nice list to chose from.

http://12.46.245.173/cfda/prog_index.html


Let's put it this way... the U.S. Coast Guard was *there* that very
afternoon.



The Commandant of the Coast Guard reports directly to Homeland Security.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Org_Chart.jpg


Did they get orders via Homeland Security?

If so, why weren't some of the other branches of Homeland
Security on the spot?

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
...

The Commandant of the Coast Guard reports directly to Homeland Security.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Org_Chart.jpg


Did they get orders via Homeland Security?

If so, why weren't some of the other branches of Homeland Security on the
spot?

DSK


What other branches? As far as I can tell, "Homeland Security" is nothing
but a bunch of suits. Do they own a few thousand personnel whose job it is
to get wet & dirty?

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"DSK" wrote in message
...

The Commandant of the Coast Guard reports directly to Homeland Security.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Org_Chart.jpg


Did they get orders via Homeland Security?

If so, why weren't some of the other branches of Homeland Security on the
spot?

DSK


What other branches? As far as I can tell, "Homeland Security" is nothing
but a bunch of suits. Do they own a few thousand personnel whose job it is
to get wet & dirty?

That's the problem. All bark and no bite. Our military is the only part of
our government that has the men, resources, chain of command, and funding to
handle disasters of that magnitude. Somehow, authority over a portion of
that military (the Reserves or the Guard) needs to be given to DHS.

"DSK" wrote in message
...
So how was Bush supposed to handle the Katrina crisis?


By sending people other than the National Guard


NOYB wrote:
LOL. So who are these imaginary people that you would send?

Are you seriously suggesting that the National Guard is the only resource
for disaster relief? What about FEMA?

FEMA doesn't have near enough people to handle a crisis that reaches the
magnitude of katrina...and certainly not the number of people or resources
necessary to handle law enforcement.

So now answer the question:
Who are these imaginary people you would send?





.... The military is off-limits thanks to Posse Comitatus

For use as police forces, yes. For disaster relief, no.
Let me remind you that the U.S. Navy was quite prominent in sending ships,
including a hospital ship, to the relief of disaster victims. But they
didn't get orders until the Friday after Katrina had hit... a full working
week.

The U.S. Navy wasn't providing law enforcement, which is prohibited under
Posse Comitatus. If you remember, there were two issue preventing assistance
from reaching the area:

1) a destroyed infrastructure (flooded roads, unsafe bridges, etc)

2) hoodlums rioting and firing at rescue workers






and the National Guard is off-limits thanks to Gov. Blanco's refusal to
hand them over to the President.


Which was totally legal & proper, according to Governor Jeb Bush.


Fine. But Blanco was incompetent. It took Bush's urging before she ever
called them up to assist.



Where would you find the people you speak of?


Start at the FEMA office and work my way down the hall.

Here's a nice list to chose from.

http://12.46.245.173/cfda/prog_index.html


Let's put it this way... the U.S. Coast Guard was *there* that very
afternoon.



The Commandant of the Coast Guard reports directly to Homeland Security.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Org_Chart.jpg


Did they get orders via Homeland Security?

Of course!


If so, why weren't some of the other branches of Homeland Security on the
spot?


Which branches are you speaking of? Homeland Security doesn't have it's own
branch to handle law enforcement issues in times of crisis. Perhaps the
answer is to assign to DHS the authority over a portion of each state's
National Guard or Reserve troops to handle law enforcement issues in times
of crisis.

NOYB wrote:
FEMA doesn't have near enough people to handle a crisis that reaches the
magnitude of katrina...

So why bother having the agency at all?
You are saying that without taking control of the National
Guard, President Bush does not have enough resources to
commit to any rescue and relief effort.

FEMA provided such an effort, only they got started a week late.

In other words, your basic premise is shown to be incorrect
by your own statements.



So now answer the question:
Who are these imaginary people you would send?


I guess the whole range of federal agencies and bureaus from
the VA to the FDA are imaginary?


Let me remind you that the U.S. Navy was quite prominent in sending ships,
including a hospital ship, to the relief of disaster victims. But they
didn't get orders until the Friday after Katrina had hit... a full working
week.


The U.S. Navy wasn't providing law enforcement,

Exactly. Thanks for agreeing with my point.

President Bush did *not* need to request control of the
Louisiana National Guard, since he could (and later did)
send the U.S. military to provide rescue & relief services.


.... If you remember, there were two issue preventing assistance
from reaching the area:

1) a destroyed infrastructure (flooded roads, unsafe bridges, etc)


Are you saying that the Feds might as well not send anybody,
or are you saying the state has more & better resources to
overcome this problem?


2) hoodlums rioting and firing at rescue workers


That was a problem, yes. Was Bush's control of the National
Guard necessary to solve it? Since they were already moving
in that direction, and did just as much or more than any
federal agency & did it sooner, I'd suggest the answer to
that is 'no.'




Did they get orders via Homeland Security?


Of course!


THen why did no other Homeland Security agency provide aid &
rescue *during* the storm itself, much less immediately after?



If so, why weren't some of the other branches of Homeland Security on the
spot?



Which branches are you speaking of? Homeland Security doesn't have it's own
branch to handle law enforcement issues in times of crisis.

I suggest you take a look at the number of agencies under
the umbrella of Homeland Security.


... Perhaps the
answer is to assign to DHS the authority over a portion of each state's
National Guard or Reserve troops to handle law enforcement issues in times
of crisis.


Perhaps the answer is NOT have a President and an executive
administration that thinks it's fine & dandy to have large
numbers of Democrats drowned & their homes & cities blasted.

Maybe the Posse Comitatus act is a good thing, if it occured
to Karl Rove then Bush might have ordered the U.S. military
to attack Democrat controlled areas in the absence of any
disaster.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:
FEMA doesn't have near enough people to handle a crisis that reaches the
magnitude of katrina...

So why bother having the agency at all?
You are saying that without taking control of the National Guard,
President Bush does not have enough resources to commit to any rescue and
relief effort.

Correct. He either needs to have control over the guard in times of
disaster...or he needs to be able to use the military for recovery efforts
*and* law enforcement.





FEMA provided such an effort, only they got started a week late.

In other words, your basic premise is shown to be incorrect by your own
statements.



So now answer the question:
Who are these imaginary people you would send?


I guess the whole range of federal agencies and bureaus from the VA to the
FDA are imaginary?


Let me remind you that the U.S. Navy was quite prominent in sending
ships, including a hospital ship, to the relief of disaster victims. But
they didn't get orders until the Friday after Katrina had hit... a full
working week.


The U.S. Navy wasn't providing law enforcement,

Exactly. Thanks for agreeing with my point.

President Bush did *not* need to request control of the Louisiana National
Guard, since he could (and later did) send the U.S. military to provide
rescue & relief services.

You missed the description of how things work:

1) local/state law enforcement
2) National Guard
3) US Military.

In one breath, you oppose executive branch control of first-reponders, and
in the next breath, you're criticizing the President for not sending the
U.S. military in sooner.





.... If you remember, there were two issue preventing assistance from
reaching the area:

1) a destroyed infrastructure (flooded roads, unsafe bridges, etc)


Are you saying that the Feds might as well not send anybody, or are you
saying the state has more & better resources to overcome this problem?


The state has neither more nor better resources...but they have the benefit
of personnel and equipment in close proximity to the disaster.




2) hoodlums rioting and firing at rescue workers


That was a problem, yes. Was Bush's control of the National Guard
necessary to solve it?


Not if the governor was competent and sent the Guard to control it sooner.


Since they were already moving in that direction, and did just as much or
more than any federal agency & did it sooner, I'd suggest the answer to
that is 'no.'




Did they get orders via Homeland Security?


Of course!


THen why did no other Homeland Security agency provide aid & rescue
*during* the storm itself, much less immediately after?



Which other DHS agencies are you speaking about?



If so, why weren't some of the other branches of Homeland Security on the
spot?



Which branches are you speaking of? Homeland Security doesn't have it's
own branch to handle law enforcement issues in times of crisis.

I suggest you take a look at the number of agencies under the umbrella of
Homeland Security.


I've seen the list. So which agency has the people and equipment necessary?



... Perhaps the answer is to assign to DHS the authority over a portion
of each state's National Guard or Reserve troops to handle law
enforcement issues in times of crisis.


Perhaps the answer is NOT have a President and an executive administration
that thinks it's fine & dandy to have large numbers of Democrats drowned &
their homes & cities blasted.

This is where your argument falls apart. By making this a Republican v.
Democrat issue, you've exposed yourself as not a problem-solver, but a
partisan hack.



Maybe the Posse Comitatus act is a good thing, if it occured to Karl Rove
then Bush might have ordered the U.S. military to attack Democrat
controlled areas in the absence of any disaster.

Perhaps. Or he could just blow up the levees and drown all of the
Democrats. Oh wait! He used that one already.

"DSK" wrote in message
...
So how was Bush supposed to handle the Katrina crisis?


By sending people other than the National Guard


NOYB wrote:
LOL. So who are these imaginary people that you would send?

Are you seriously suggesting that the National Guard is the only resource
for disaster relief? What about FEMA?



.... The military is off-limits thanks to Posse Comitatus

For use as police forces, yes. For disaster relief, no.
Let me remind you that the U.S. Navy was quite prominent in sending ships,
including a hospital ship, to the relief of disaster victims. But they
didn't get orders until the Friday after Katrina had hit... a full working
week.

You can't mobilize the military on an "if-come".

Rescue operations are performed in the following order:

1) local and state law enforcement (and local completely collapsed, with
most walking off the job, and some participating in the looting)

2) the state-controlled National Guard

3) DoD-controlled Reserves

4) DoD-controlled Active Duty

If the DoD gets involved, guess who heads the chain of command? Someone has
to have ultimate authority over all operations...which means that the DoD
has authority over civilian operations. And only the Governor can request
that. (That's where Lt Maj. Honore eventually came in. He's the guy who
coined the phrase "stuck on stupid")

Are you suggesting that the Federal government should have sent
DoD-controlled troops prior to, or in the immediate aftermath of the storm?
The problem with that is logistics. The National Guard and Reserves already
have troops and equipment in place. The troops who were sent in later had
to come from all over the country. That doesn't happen overnight. And it
can't happen until the Governor requests it.


"Lieutenant General Joseph Inge, the deputy commander of the US Northern
Command, which provided the forces for the military part of the relief
effort, said active-duty soldiers will not get involved in any forced
evacuations. "We are told there are some 900 policemen in New Orleans," he
said. "We would certainly see forcing evacuation as a first priority for
them to work. If the authorities in the state of Louisiana chose to use
their National Guard, in a state status, that would certainly be permissible
and their call. When this turns into a law enforcement issue, which we
perceive forced evacuation is, regular troops would not be used."

Active-duty troops can only have authority over civilians in the United
States if the state governor asks for such help, or if the president orders
it. There has only been one such presidential order since the U.S. civil war
in the 1860s, when troops were used to force racial integration at the
University of Mississippi."



http://www.globalsecurity.org/securi...tf-katrina.htm