A serious question: Do you actually believe that this blackout WAS the
result of terrorism or, as has been suggested, a breakdown of
infrastructure?

Dave


I seriously believe that if I was Al Quaida, I'd try to take credit for every
bit of bad news in the US from forest fires in the NW to seasonal outbreaks of
the Hong Kong flu.

I also believe that if I were in charge of such decisions in the government,
I'd make darn sure the terrorists never got credit for diddly squat- whether
they did it or not. Even take 9-11 for example: the govt could have portrayed
those tragic events as the deranged act of a group of
criminal extremists, and who would have been able to dispute it? (Surgically
remove the head of the snake if vengeance is required or desired). Instead we
get maybe WW III, and the only difference is how we choose to react.

Chuck,
Are you suggesting that the government should have kept the reason for 911
secret from it's citizens?


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
A serious question: Do you actually believe that this blackout WAS the
result of terrorism or, as has been suggested, a breakdown of
infrastructure?

Dave


I seriously believe that if I was Al Quaida, I'd try to take credit for
every
bit of bad news in the US from forest fires in the NW to seasonal
outbreaks of
the Hong Kong flu.

I also believe that if I were in charge of such decisions in the
government,
I'd make darn sure the terrorists never got credit for diddly squat-
whether
they did it or not. Even take 9-11 for example: the govt could have
portrayed
those tragic events as the deranged act of a group of
criminal extremists, and who would have been able to dispute it?
(Surgically
remove the head of the snake if vengeance is required or desired). Instead
we
get maybe WW III, and the only difference is how we choose to react.

Chuck,
Are you suggesting that the government should have kept the reason for 911
secret from it's citizens?

Those most directly responsible for 9-11 died with their victims. That is a
provable truth. They have co-conspirators who lived, and those co-conspirators
need to be brought to justice.

It is as rational to argue that it was a deranged act of criminal extremists as
it is to argue that we needed to completely revamp our foreign policy to
include first strike preemption throughout the world as a result of the
tragedy. We have used 9-11 to take out Afghanistan. In the last few days before
the actual invasion, Bush beat the 9-11 drum over Iraq. How many more wars and
invasions will we be able to justify over 9-11?

If it were up to me, we would have hunted down Osama Bin Ladin as an
individual, international, criminal terrorist *******. We would have not rested
until he was brought to justice, (rather than after we secured the pipeline
right of way from the Caspain Sea). We practically have the capacity to count
the hair on a man's head from outer space. How hard can it be to find an entire
human being, provided we are truly dedicated to look for him?

*People* can be criminals, not countries or cultures. We destroy countries,
dismantle governments, damage cultures, and yet the friggin ciminals (OBL, SH,
etc) keep on truckin. At what point do we consider that if we keep on doing
what we've been doing so far, we'll just keep on getting what we've
already got? A handful of air. No WMD, no OBL, no SH. :-(

Bring the *criminals* to justice. Few on the left would disagree with such a
program, IMO. Anybody who would use the hunt for the criminals as cover for
other purposes is less than forthright, to put it kindly.

If our leaders are so incompetant that they cannot locate people so high
profile as OBL and SH, they should be replaced. If they are so devious that
they deprioritize locating these criminals, they should be replaced.

Maybe it boils down to "which" lie is told to the American people. And neither
is really acceptable. If we continue to knock off a string of governments and
occupy mid east countries without catching the head of the snake, our problems
will become larger and larger.

IMO, we should bring the criminals to justice and that would solve more than
occupying Iraq and Afghanistan.

On 26 Aug 2003 19:20:04 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Chuck,
Are you suggesting that the government should have kept the reason for 911
secret from it's citizens?

Those most directly responsible for 9-11 died with their victims. That is a
provable truth. They have co-conspirators who lived, and those co-conspirators
need to be brought to justice.

It is as rational to argue that it was a deranged act of criminal extremists as
it is to argue that we needed to completely revamp our foreign policy to
include first strike preemption throughout the world as a result of the
tragedy. We have used 9-11 to take out Afghanistan. In the last few days before
the actual invasion, Bush beat the 9-11 drum over Iraq. How many more wars and
invasions will we be able to justify over 9-11?

If it were up to me, we would have hunted down Osama Bin Ladin as an
individual, international, criminal terrorist *******. We would have not rested
until he was brought to justice, (rather than after we secured the pipeline
right of way from the Caspain Sea). We practically have the capacity to count
the hair on a man's head from outer space. How hard can it be to find an entire
human being, provided we are truly dedicated to look for him?

*People* can be criminals, not countries or cultures. We destroy countries,
dismantle governments, damage cultures, and yet the friggin ciminals (OBL, SH,
etc) keep on truckin. At what point do we consider that if we keep on doing
what we've been doing so far, we'll just keep on getting what we've
already got? A handful of air. No WMD, no OBL, no SH. :-(

Bring the *criminals* to justice. Few on the left would disagree with such a
program, IMO. Anybody who would use the hunt for the criminals as cover for
other purposes is less than forthright, to put it kindly.

If our leaders are so incompetant that they cannot locate people so high
profile as OBL and SH, they should be replaced. If they are so devious that
they deprioritize locating these criminals, they should be replaced.

Maybe it boils down to "which" lie is told to the American people. And neither
is really acceptable. If we continue to knock off a string of governments and
occupy mid east countries without catching the head of the snake, our problems
will become larger and larger.

IMO, we should bring the criminals to justice and that would solve more than
occupying Iraq and Afghanistan.


Gould - How long did it take to track down the Atlanta Olympics bomber? Even
then, we caught him by accident! Do you honestly think we were not looking?

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

Gould - How long did it take to track down the Atlanta Olympics bomber? Even
then, we caught him by accident! Do you honestly think we were not looking?

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD


Not the same thing at all, John. There was
a task force of probably a couple dozen guys trying to find the Atlanta
Olympics bomber. Yeah, they probably looked for him some everyday.

The difference here is that we don't have to first wonder who the culprit is.
We know who he is. We've narrowly missed him a couple of times. If we spent
half the manpower, money, and technology we dedicated to invading Iraq to
finding OBL, there isn't a rock on the planet where the guy could hide.

It's a question of priorities. What are we spending in Iraq, to protect
American citizens from terrorism? I've heard figures of about a billion a week-
but let's fudge the numbers all the way down to a billion a quarter and even
the most ardent Bush supporter would reluctantly admit that's way low.

We got Udai and Kusai ratted out for $30mm. A few days' expense, even at a
reducd rate of a billion every 90 days.

Would $100 million rat out OBL? $200 million? $300 million, a US green card,
and a total plastic surgery makeover for the informant and his family? There's
a price that would buy OBL, and it's probably a lot cheaper than the course
we're on.....*if* our intention is to catch the criminal ******* at the head of
the organization that blew down the WTC etc.

On 27 Aug 2003 01:12:19 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Gould - How long did it take to track down the Atlanta Olympics bomber? Even
then, we caught him by accident! Do you honestly think we were not looking?

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD


Not the same thing at all, John. There was
a task force of probably a couple dozen guys trying to find the Atlanta
Olympics bomber. Yeah, they probably looked for him some everyday.

The difference here is that we don't have to first wonder who the culprit is.
We know who he is. We've narrowly missed him a couple of times. If we spent
half the manpower, money, and technology we dedicated to invading Iraq to
finding OBL, there isn't a rock on the planet where the guy could hide.

It's a question of priorities. What are we spending in Iraq, to protect
American citizens from terrorism? I've heard figures of about a billion a week-
but let's fudge the numbers all the way down to a billion a quarter and even
the most ardent Bush supporter would reluctantly admit that's way low.

We got Udai and Kusai ratted out for $30mm. A few days' expense, even at a
reducd rate of a billion every 90 days.

Would $100 million rat out OBL? $200 million? $300 million, a US green card,
and a total plastic surgery makeover for the informant and his family? There's
a price that would buy OBL, and it's probably a lot cheaper than the course
we're on.....*if* our intention is to catch the criminal ******* at the head of
the organization that blew down the WTC etc.

We knew for years who we were hunting in the Atlanta bombings. Your argument
lost again. I think you're wrong about the price that would buy Osama. How much
would it take for you to plant a nuclear device under the Space Needle?

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

Gould 0738 wrote:


We got Udai and Kusai ratted out for $30mm. A few days' expense, even at a
reducd rate of a billion every 90 days.

Would $100 million rat out OBL? $200 million? $300 million, a US green card,
and a total plastic surgery makeover for the informant and his family? There's
a price that would buy OBL, and it's probably a lot cheaper than the course
we're on.....*if* our intention is to catch the criminal ******* at the head of
the organization that blew down the WTC etc.


Chuck, you assume that the people with the information, are as consumer,
and materially oriented as an American. Many of those people loath what
the american dollar stands for, and offering it as an incentive to "give
up" their comrades, will not have the same appeal. Offer them the 70
virgins and the all night party at Allah's, and then they might think
about it......

Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
Gould 0738 wrote:


We got Udai and Kusai ratted out for $30mm. A few days' expense, even at
a
reducd rate of a billion every 90 days.

Would $100 million rat out OBL? $200 million? $300 million, a US green
card,
and a total plastic surgery makeover for the informant and his family?
There's
a price that would buy OBL, and it's probably a lot cheaper than the
course
we're on.....*if* our intention is to catch the criminal ******* at the
head of
the organization that blew down the WTC etc.


Chuck, you assume that the people with the information, are as consumer,
and materially oriented as an American. Many of those people loath what
the american dollar stands for, and offering it as an incentive to "give
up" their comrades, will not have the same appeal. Offer them the 70
virgins and the all night party at Allah's, and then they might think
about it......

Dave

The burgeoning black market in the Middle East for Western goods suggests
that people over there are as materialistic as anyone else.

Chuck, you assume that the people with the information, are as consumer,
and materially oriented as an American. Many of those people loath what
the american dollar stands for, and offering it as an incentive to "give
up" their comrades, will not have the same appeal. Offer them the 70
virgins and the all night party at Allah's, and then they might think
about it......

Dave

Well let's do the math he

$200 million. Subtact 25 million to purchase a "palace" in most any state in
the union. $175 million left. Pay 100 guys
$100k a year each to guard your sorry butt for 50 years, $125 million left.
Hire 70 women to service your every desire. You should probably find women
willing to live in a palace and put on an act once ever so often for what,
$200k a year apiece? I guess it would take about ten years to screw through the
rest of the money- at which time even Allah would have to admit the gals were
no longer virgins.

Gould 0738 wrote:

Chuck,
Are you suggesting that the government should have kept the reason for 911
secret from it's citizens?

If it were up to me, we would have hunted down Osama Bin Ladin as an
individual, international, criminal terrorist *******. We would have not rested
until he was brought to justice, (rather than after we secured the pipeline
right of way from the Caspain Sea). We practically have the capacity to count
the hair on a man's head from outer space. How hard can it be to find an entire
human being, provided we are truly dedicated to look for him?

Do you think you might be overestimating our ability to "track" people?
It would seem that people who want to be hidden, can do so for quite
sometime. Look at Eric Rudolph, who lived on the lam for 5 years, with
only his wits to guide him.

Which brings us back to the original statement, how would you "hunt"
down a criminal such as OBL or SH, when we have no legal right to enter
the country which harbors him? If the host country refuses to help us,
do we just turn around, or do we comitt an act of war by defying the
wishes of the host country? That was the whole premise for the campaign
against Afghanistan and Iraq. Remember, that aiding the terrorists was
akin to being an accessory to the "crime", and are therefore equally
culpable.


*People* can be criminals, not countries or cultures.

But cultures can breed a mindset which results in "criminal" behavior
being carried out against those which they've been indoctrinated to
belive, are their sworn enemies.


We destroy countries,
dismantle governments, damage cultures, and yet the friggin ciminals (OBL, SH,
etc) keep on truckin.

You turn over enough rocks, and you're bound to eventually find the
snake. It also sends a message to other people, that it would not be a
wise idea to "F" with us.

Bring the *criminals* to justice.

Easy to say. Far harder to do.

Few on the left would disagree with such a
program, IMO.

And even fewer on the left could come up with a comprehensive plan of
just how to do it. The left is full of people who are long on criticism,
and far short on rational, and practical solutions.


Anybody who would use the hunt for the criminals as cover for
other purposes is less than forthright, to put it kindly.

I'd agree. I'd also point out that people who jump to that conclusion,
based on little more than speculative musings, are doing their country a
disservice.


If our leaders are so incompetant that they cannot locate people so high
profile as OBL and SH, they should be replaced. If they are so devious that
they deprioritize locating these criminals, they should be replaced.

Again, I think you are overestimating our "locating" ability, or
underestimating the resolve and innovative skill of those who terrorise
us.


Maybe it boils down to "which" lie is told to the American people. And neither
is really acceptable. If we continue to knock off a string of governments and
occupy mid east countries without catching the head of the snake, our problems
will become larger and larger.

When the snake is free to hide in countries who are not motivated to
oppose it, we will never get it completely. At some point we have to
step on some toes if we are truly motivated in erradicating the mindset
of terrorism.


IMO, we should bring the criminals to justice and that would solve more than
occupying Iraq and Afghanistan.

For every OBL and SH we bring to justice, there are many others ready to
step up to take over. OBL is not the end all of terrorism. In fact, it
really matters little except as a technical point and a morale boost to
actually find these guys. It's far more important to stamp out what they
stand for.

Dave