Harry,
I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the animosity
between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that!

What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a bayliner,
over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that
Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others
that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the
boat.

I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but
each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake limit
or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on the
make or model of a boat.

If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know, otherwise
I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs.

Bryan
Sea Ray 185 Sport

Bryan wrote:
Harry,
I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the animosity
between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that!

What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a bayliner,
over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that
Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others
that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the
boat.

I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but
each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake limit
or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on the
make or model of a boat.

If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know, otherwise
I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs.

Bryan
Sea Ray 185 Sport


There was a period of time when Bayliner built some marginal boats.
Maybe marginal is too optimistic a term. It wasn't any secret to
anybody in the industry or even shopping for a boat that Bayliner was,
at that time, suitable only for the most protected waterways and inland
lakes and sometimes then, just barely. Fit and finish were miserable,
design was questionable, fixtures and equipment mostly bottom of the
line. These cheaply built boats were sold at cheap prices, and
therefore in some large numbers to a group of people who
usually didn't know much about a boat when they bought one. The
frustrated competitors watched sale after sale after sale go to the
"low, low, monthly payment" Bayliner dealer, when, in most cases, the
competitors were justified in believing they had a better boat. Unable
or unwilling to build down to the same price point, "Bayliner is Crap!"
became a sales strategy throughout the industry. The good news
is.......that's ancient history.

You still run into people who are just beginning to shop for a boat who
will say, "I don't know much about boats, but I do know that all
Bayliners are crap." If that's what they think they know, then they
don't actually know anything about boats at all. Brunswick has replaced
a lot of the mini-wage, unskilled, short-employment-trainee level help
that used to assemble the boats with state of the art CAD and high tech
production techniques.
Things that used to fit badly now fit well. A lot of the plywood has
been taken out of the boats. While top-of-the-line hardware and
fittings are still rare on Bayliners, it's just as hard to find the
ulta-cheapo, "breaks off in your hand or under stress" loosely cast
zinc and plastic stuff that prevailed once upon a time.

In conversation with some of the regional Bayliner execs, they
typically address quality and value issues with statements similar to:
"We don't claim to make the best boat in the whole world. We want to
build a safe, sturdy, well designed boat that the average family might
be able to afford. We'll let other builders worry about being more
elite than everybody else in sight, our buyers are more interested in
having fun on the water than in worrying about how impressed somebody
else is going to be with the nameplate on the side of the boat."

I personally know a number of people who own Bayliners. Several of them
bought their Bayliners after many years of experience boating with
other brands of boats. Just after taking delivery of a new 33-footer
several years ago, one of my friends remarked "If you had told me this
time last year that my next new boat would be a Bayliner, I would have
said you were nuts. Because I was skeptical about the brand name, I
looked this boat over
at least a half dozen times before I decided to buy it. I kept looking
for a reason *not* to buy it, and couldn't find one, and in the process
I discovered a bunch of things about it that I like very much."

IMO, the newer and or the larger the Bayliner- the better the boat.
They still build a little
16-footer that sells for close to $10k and is built strictly to be an
entry level boat. It's not really indicative of the brand any more than
the Geo Metro was ever indicative of General Motors.

wrote:

You still run into people who are just beginning to shop for a boat who
will say, "I don't know much about boats, but I do know that all
Bayliners are crap." If that's what they think they know, then they
don't actually know anything about boats at all.

That pretty much describes Harry...and a few folks who like to think
they actually know boats.

--
Skipper

wrote in message
oups.com...

Bryan wrote:
Harry,
I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the
animosity
between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that!

What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a
bayliner,
over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that
Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others
that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the
boat.

I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but
each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake
limit
or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on
the
make or model of a boat.

If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know,
otherwise
I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs.

Bryan
Sea Ray 185 Sport


There was a period of time when Bayliner built some marginal boats.
Maybe marginal is too optimistic a term. It wasn't any secret to
anybody in the industry or even shopping for a boat that Bayliner was,
at that time, suitable only for the most protected waterways and inland
lakes and sometimes then, just barely. Fit and finish were miserable,
design was questionable, fixtures and equipment mostly bottom of the
line. These cheaply built boats were sold at cheap prices, and
therefore in some large numbers to a group of people who
usually didn't know much about a boat when they bought one. The
frustrated competitors watched sale after sale after sale go to the
"low, low, monthly payment" Bayliner dealer, when, in most cases, the
competitors were justified in believing they had a better boat. Unable
or unwilling to build down to the same price point, "Bayliner is Crap!"
became a sales strategy throughout the industry. The good news
is.......that's ancient history.

You still run into people who are just beginning to shop for a boat who
will say, "I don't know much about boats, but I do know that all
Bayliners are crap." If that's what they think they know, then they
don't actually know anything about boats at all. Brunswick has replaced
a lot of the mini-wage, unskilled, short-employment-trainee level help
that used to assemble the boats with state of the art CAD and high tech
production techniques.
Things that used to fit badly now fit well. A lot of the plywood has
been taken out of the boats. While top-of-the-line hardware and
fittings are still rare on Bayliners, it's just as hard to find the
ulta-cheapo, "breaks off in your hand or under stress" loosely cast
zinc and plastic stuff that prevailed once upon a time.

In conversation with some of the regional Bayliner execs, they
typically address quality and value issues with statements similar to:
"We don't claim to make the best boat in the whole world. We want to
build a safe, sturdy, well designed boat that the average family might
be able to afford. We'll let other builders worry about being more
elite than everybody else in sight, our buyers are more interested in
having fun on the water than in worrying about how impressed somebody
else is going to be with the nameplate on the side of the boat."

I personally know a number of people who own Bayliners. Several of them
bought their Bayliners after many years of experience boating with
other brands of boats. Just after taking delivery of a new 33-footer
several years ago, one of my friends remarked "If you had told me this
time last year that my next new boat would be a Bayliner, I would have
said you were nuts. Because I was skeptical about the brand name, I
looked this boat over
at least a half dozen times before I decided to buy it. I kept looking
for a reason *not* to buy it, and couldn't find one, and in the process
I discovered a bunch of things about it that I like very much."

IMO, the newer and or the larger the Bayliner- the better the boat.
They still build a little
16-footer that sells for close to $10k and is built strictly to be an
entry level boat. It's not really indicative of the brand any more than
the Geo Metro was ever indicative of General Motors.



Nice explanation Chuck.

The problem is, as you state, the lingering feelings about Bayliner, which
may then have an effect on resale. For that reason some folks continue to
steer clear of them especially when considering new boats.

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 2 Feb 2006 13:15:38 -0800, wrote:

They still build a little 16-footer that sells for close to $10k and is built
strictly to be an entry level boat.

i gotta tell you chuck, that is not a bad little ride for somebody
looking just to get out on the local lake or river.

its surprizing how well its made.

I wouldn't hesitate to take one out in reasonable conditions.

Even their bottom of the line boat is now better than the general run
of production was during some of the 70's and 80's, but there are some
exceptions to the standards applied to the rest of the line that help
the boat sell for an impossibly cheap price. Plywood floorboards, for
example, and that's only a start.

The bigger and or newer the Bayliner, the better the boat. IMO. :-)

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Bryan wrote:
Harry,
I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the
animosity between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk
about that!

What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a
bayliner, over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for
Skip and that Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote
from, and others that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment
as a slur on the boat.

I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but
each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake
limit or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack
on the make or model of a boat.

If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know,
otherwise I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or
slurs.

Bryan
Sea Ray 185 Sport


My comments have nothing to do with Bayliners, really, but everything to
to with Skipper's years of overblown claims for the "quality" of his
particular boat. It is true, however, that the older Bayliners were more
than a little deficient in the quality area, but the newer ones are better
than the older ones. From what I have seen, the newer Bayliners are just
about average now.

Thanks for the answer, Harry.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Bryan wrote:
Harry,
I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the
animosity
between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that!

What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a
bayliner,
over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that
Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others
that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the
boat.

I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but
each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake
limit
or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on
the
make or model of a boat.

If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know,
otherwise
I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs.

Bryan
Sea Ray 185 Sport


There was a period of time when Bayliner built some marginal boats.
Maybe marginal is too optimistic a term. It wasn't any secret to
anybody in the industry or even shopping for a boat that Bayliner was,
at that time, suitable only for the most protected waterways and inland
lakes and sometimes then, just barely. Fit and finish were miserable,
design was questionable, fixtures and equipment mostly bottom of the
line. These cheaply built boats were sold at cheap prices, and
therefore in some large numbers to a group of people who
usually didn't know much about a boat when they bought one. The
frustrated competitors watched sale after sale after sale go to the
"low, low, monthly payment" Bayliner dealer, when, in most cases, the
competitors were justified in believing they had a better boat. Unable
or unwilling to build down to the same price point, "Bayliner is Crap!"
became a sales strategy throughout the industry. The good news
is.......that's ancient history.

You still run into people who are just beginning to shop for a boat who
will say, "I don't know much about boats, but I do know that all
Bayliners are crap." If that's what they think they know, then they
don't actually know anything about boats at all. Brunswick has replaced
a lot of the mini-wage, unskilled, short-employment-trainee level help
that used to assemble the boats with state of the art CAD and high tech
production techniques.
Things that used to fit badly now fit well. A lot of the plywood has
been taken out of the boats. While top-of-the-line hardware and
fittings are still rare on Bayliners, it's just as hard to find the
ulta-cheapo, "breaks off in your hand or under stress" loosely cast
zinc and plastic stuff that prevailed once upon a time.

In conversation with some of the regional Bayliner execs, they
typically address quality and value issues with statements similar to:
"We don't claim to make the best boat in the whole world. We want to
build a safe, sturdy, well designed boat that the average family might
be able to afford. We'll let other builders worry about being more
elite than everybody else in sight, our buyers are more interested in
having fun on the water than in worrying about how impressed somebody
else is going to be with the nameplate on the side of the boat."

I personally know a number of people who own Bayliners. Several of them
bought their Bayliners after many years of experience boating with
other brands of boats. Just after taking delivery of a new 33-footer
several years ago, one of my friends remarked "If you had told me this
time last year that my next new boat would be a Bayliner, I would have
said you were nuts. Because I was skeptical about the brand name, I
looked this boat over
at least a half dozen times before I decided to buy it. I kept looking
for a reason *not* to buy it, and couldn't find one, and in the process
I discovered a bunch of things about it that I like very much."

IMO, the newer and or the larger the Bayliner- the better the boat.
They still build a little
16-footer that sells for close to $10k and is built strictly to be an
entry level boat. It's not really indicative of the brand any more than
the Geo Metro was ever indicative of General Motors.


Great answer, Chuck! Thanks.
Just more proof that this ng has a lot to offer when on topic.
I really like my little Sea Ray, but I'll definitley avoid steering someone
away from a Bayliner based on ancient reputation.

Nice explanation Chuck.

The problem is, as you state, the lingering feelings about Bayliner, which
may then have an effect on resale.

Tom Fournier (Editor, The Marine Blue Book) wrote on 7/9/97:

“FACT: Bayliners retain a higher percentage of their purchase price
than do most other brands who compete in their size/price range.”

--
Skipper

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Skipper wrote:
Nice explanation Chuck.

The problem is, as you state, the lingering feelings about Bayliner,
which
may then have an effect on resale.

Tom Fournier (Editor, The Marine Blue Book) wrote on 7/9/97: “FACT:
Bayliners retain a higher percentage of their purchase price than do most
other brands who compete in their size/price range.” --
Skipper


I see Snipper is in dredge mode again, or is it still.

Poor Fournier...he must rue the day he ever ran into Snipper.


9 year old data. How enlightening.

Harry Krause wrote:

Tom Fournier (Editor, The Marine Blue Book) wrote on 7/9/97: “FACT:
Bayliners retain a higher percentage of their purchase price than do most
other brands who compete in their size/price range.” --

9 year old data. How enlightening.

It wasn't accurate way back then, of course.

Accurate facts 'n data have never been your strong suit, Krause.

--
Skipper