Harry,
I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the animosity
between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that!

What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a bayliner,
over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that
Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others
that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the
boat.

I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but
each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake limit
or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on the
make or model of a boat.

If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know, otherwise
I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs.

Bryan
Sea Ray 185 Sport

Bryan wrote:
Harry,
I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the animosity
between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that!

What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a bayliner,
over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that
Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others
that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the
boat.

I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but
each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake limit
or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on the
make or model of a boat.

If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know, otherwise
I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs.

Bryan
Sea Ray 185 Sport


There was a period of time when Bayliner built some marginal boats.
Maybe marginal is too optimistic a term. It wasn't any secret to
anybody in the industry or even shopping for a boat that Bayliner was,
at that time, suitable only for the most protected waterways and inland
lakes and sometimes then, just barely. Fit and finish were miserable,
design was questionable, fixtures and equipment mostly bottom of the
line. These cheaply built boats were sold at cheap prices, and
therefore in some large numbers to a group of people who
usually didn't know much about a boat when they bought one. The
frustrated competitors watched sale after sale after sale go to the
"low, low, monthly payment" Bayliner dealer, when, in most cases, the
competitors were justified in believing they had a better boat. Unable
or unwilling to build down to the same price point, "Bayliner is Crap!"
became a sales strategy throughout the industry. The good news
is.......that's ancient history.

You still run into people who are just beginning to shop for a boat who
will say, "I don't know much about boats, but I do know that all
Bayliners are crap." If that's what they think they know, then they
don't actually know anything about boats at all. Brunswick has replaced
a lot of the mini-wage, unskilled, short-employment-trainee level help
that used to assemble the boats with state of the art CAD and high tech
production techniques.
Things that used to fit badly now fit well. A lot of the plywood has
been taken out of the boats. While top-of-the-line hardware and
fittings are still rare on Bayliners, it's just as hard to find the
ulta-cheapo, "breaks off in your hand or under stress" loosely cast
zinc and plastic stuff that prevailed once upon a time.

In conversation with some of the regional Bayliner execs, they
typically address quality and value issues with statements similar to:
"We don't claim to make the best boat in the whole world. We want to
build a safe, sturdy, well designed boat that the average family might
be able to afford. We'll let other builders worry about being more
elite than everybody else in sight, our buyers are more interested in
having fun on the water than in worrying about how impressed somebody
else is going to be with the nameplate on the side of the boat."

I personally know a number of people who own Bayliners. Several of them
bought their Bayliners after many years of experience boating with
other brands of boats. Just after taking delivery of a new 33-footer
several years ago, one of my friends remarked "If you had told me this
time last year that my next new boat would be a Bayliner, I would have
said you were nuts. Because I was skeptical about the brand name, I
looked this boat over
at least a half dozen times before I decided to buy it. I kept looking
for a reason *not* to buy it, and couldn't find one, and in the process
I discovered a bunch of things about it that I like very much."

IMO, the newer and or the larger the Bayliner- the better the boat.
They still build a little
16-footer that sells for close to $10k and is built strictly to be an
entry level boat. It's not really indicative of the brand any more than
the Geo Metro was ever indicative of General Motors.

wrote:

You still run into people who are just beginning to shop for a boat who
will say, "I don't know much about boats, but I do know that all
Bayliners are crap." If that's what they think they know, then they
don't actually know anything about boats at all.

That pretty much describes Harry...and a few folks who like to think
they actually know boats.

--
Skipper

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:22:57 -0600, Skipper wrote:

wrote:

You still run into people who are just beginning to shop for a boat who
will say, "I don't know much about boats, but I do know that all
Bayliners are crap." If that's what they think they know, then they
don't actually know anything about boats at all.

That pretty much describes Harry...and a few folks who like to think
they actually know boats.

a troll
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

wrote in message
oups.com...

Bryan wrote:
Harry,
I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the
animosity
between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that!

What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a
bayliner,
over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that
Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others
that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the
boat.

I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but
each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake
limit
or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on
the
make or model of a boat.

If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know,
otherwise
I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs.

Bryan
Sea Ray 185 Sport


There was a period of time when Bayliner built some marginal boats.
Maybe marginal is too optimistic a term. It wasn't any secret to
anybody in the industry or even shopping for a boat that Bayliner was,
at that time, suitable only for the most protected waterways and inland
lakes and sometimes then, just barely. Fit and finish were miserable,
design was questionable, fixtures and equipment mostly bottom of the
line. These cheaply built boats were sold at cheap prices, and
therefore in some large numbers to a group of people who
usually didn't know much about a boat when they bought one. The
frustrated competitors watched sale after sale after sale go to the
"low, low, monthly payment" Bayliner dealer, when, in most cases, the
competitors were justified in believing they had a better boat. Unable
or unwilling to build down to the same price point, "Bayliner is Crap!"
became a sales strategy throughout the industry. The good news
is.......that's ancient history.

You still run into people who are just beginning to shop for a boat who
will say, "I don't know much about boats, but I do know that all
Bayliners are crap." If that's what they think they know, then they
don't actually know anything about boats at all. Brunswick has replaced
a lot of the mini-wage, unskilled, short-employment-trainee level help
that used to assemble the boats with state of the art CAD and high tech
production techniques.
Things that used to fit badly now fit well. A lot of the plywood has
been taken out of the boats. While top-of-the-line hardware and
fittings are still rare on Bayliners, it's just as hard to find the
ulta-cheapo, "breaks off in your hand or under stress" loosely cast
zinc and plastic stuff that prevailed once upon a time.

In conversation with some of the regional Bayliner execs, they
typically address quality and value issues with statements similar to:
"We don't claim to make the best boat in the whole world. We want to
build a safe, sturdy, well designed boat that the average family might
be able to afford. We'll let other builders worry about being more
elite than everybody else in sight, our buyers are more interested in
having fun on the water than in worrying about how impressed somebody
else is going to be with the nameplate on the side of the boat."

I personally know a number of people who own Bayliners. Several of them
bought their Bayliners after many years of experience boating with
other brands of boats. Just after taking delivery of a new 33-footer
several years ago, one of my friends remarked "If you had told me this
time last year that my next new boat would be a Bayliner, I would have
said you were nuts. Because I was skeptical about the brand name, I
looked this boat over
at least a half dozen times before I decided to buy it. I kept looking
for a reason *not* to buy it, and couldn't find one, and in the process
I discovered a bunch of things about it that I like very much."

IMO, the newer and or the larger the Bayliner- the better the boat.
They still build a little
16-footer that sells for close to $10k and is built strictly to be an
entry level boat. It's not really indicative of the brand any more than
the Geo Metro was ever indicative of General Motors.



Nice explanation Chuck.

The problem is, as you state, the lingering feelings about Bayliner, which
may then have an effect on resale. For that reason some folks continue to
steer clear of them especially when considering new boats.

Nice explanation Chuck.

The problem is, as you state, the lingering feelings about Bayliner, which
may then have an effect on resale.

Tom Fournier (Editor, The Marine Blue Book) wrote on 7/9/97:

“FACT: Bayliners retain a higher percentage of their purchase price
than do most other brands who compete in their size/price range.”

--
Skipper

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message

Nice explanation Chuck.

The problem is, as you state, the lingering feelings about Bayliner, which
may then have an effect on resale. For that reason some folks continue to
steer clear of them especially when considering new boats.

Reality vs. perception. Sounds like Bayliner has a problem another company
has.....Kaiser Permanente. As a health insurance broker, all I have to do
is say the name and I get an immediate reaction....love em or hate em.
Negative reputation was earned 15 years ago when they drew the bottom of the
barrell, physician-wise. Since then, they've turned it around, drawing
excellent physicians/specialists who want to practice medicine, not be
businessmen.

But their reputation haunts them.

A boat salesman made a comment about Bayliner and their workmanship. He
said, "If they are of such poor quality, why is there so many older ones
around, running just fine." Contrast that to the Vega or Pinto.

My two bits. I'd rather put my trust in a company that is trying hard vs. a
company that is resting on it's laurels. SeaRay comes to mind, in that
respect.

-Greg

"Dene" wrote in message
. ..

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message

Nice explanation Chuck.

The problem is, as you state, the lingering feelings about Bayliner,
which
may then have an effect on resale. For that reason some folks continue
to
steer clear of them especially when considering new boats.

Reality vs. perception. Sounds like Bayliner has a problem another
company
has.....Kaiser Permanente. As a health insurance broker, all I have to do
is say the name and I get an immediate reaction....love em or hate em.
Negative reputation was earned 15 years ago when they drew the bottom of
the
barrell, physician-wise. Since then, they've turned it around, drawing
excellent physicians/specialists who want to practice medicine, not be
businessmen.

But their reputation haunts them.

A boat salesman made a comment about Bayliner and their workmanship. He
said, "If they are of such poor quality, why is there so many older ones
around, running just fine." Contrast that to the Vega or Pinto.

My two bits. I'd rather put my trust in a company that is trying hard vs.
a
company that is resting on it's laurels. SeaRay comes to mind, in that
respect.


Ouch!

Bryan
Sea Ray 185 Sport

"Bryan" wrote in message
. net...

"Dene" wrote in message
. ..

My two bits. I'd rather put my trust in a company that is trying hard
vs.
a
company that is resting on it's laurels. SeaRay comes to mind, in that
respect.


Ouch!

Bryan
Sea Ray 185 Sport

Don't mean to pinch. Sea Ray's are fine boats but I don't believe they are
the best bang for the buck.

-Greg

wrote in message
oups.com...

Bryan wrote:
Harry,
I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the
animosity
between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that!

What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a
bayliner,
over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that
Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others
that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the
boat.

I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but
each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake
limit
or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on
the
make or model of a boat.

If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know,
otherwise
I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs.

Bryan
Sea Ray 185 Sport


There was a period of time when Bayliner built some marginal boats.
Maybe marginal is too optimistic a term. It wasn't any secret to
anybody in the industry or even shopping for a boat that Bayliner was,
at that time, suitable only for the most protected waterways and inland
lakes and sometimes then, just barely. Fit and finish were miserable,
design was questionable, fixtures and equipment mostly bottom of the
line. These cheaply built boats were sold at cheap prices, and
therefore in some large numbers to a group of people who
usually didn't know much about a boat when they bought one. The
frustrated competitors watched sale after sale after sale go to the
"low, low, monthly payment" Bayliner dealer, when, in most cases, the
competitors were justified in believing they had a better boat. Unable
or unwilling to build down to the same price point, "Bayliner is Crap!"
became a sales strategy throughout the industry. The good news
is.......that's ancient history.

You still run into people who are just beginning to shop for a boat who
will say, "I don't know much about boats, but I do know that all
Bayliners are crap." If that's what they think they know, then they
don't actually know anything about boats at all. Brunswick has replaced
a lot of the mini-wage, unskilled, short-employment-trainee level help
that used to assemble the boats with state of the art CAD and high tech
production techniques.
Things that used to fit badly now fit well. A lot of the plywood has
been taken out of the boats. While top-of-the-line hardware and
fittings are still rare on Bayliners, it's just as hard to find the
ulta-cheapo, "breaks off in your hand or under stress" loosely cast
zinc and plastic stuff that prevailed once upon a time.

In conversation with some of the regional Bayliner execs, they
typically address quality and value issues with statements similar to:
"We don't claim to make the best boat in the whole world. We want to
build a safe, sturdy, well designed boat that the average family might
be able to afford. We'll let other builders worry about being more
elite than everybody else in sight, our buyers are more interested in
having fun on the water than in worrying about how impressed somebody
else is going to be with the nameplate on the side of the boat."

I personally know a number of people who own Bayliners. Several of them
bought their Bayliners after many years of experience boating with
other brands of boats. Just after taking delivery of a new 33-footer
several years ago, one of my friends remarked "If you had told me this
time last year that my next new boat would be a Bayliner, I would have
said you were nuts. Because I was skeptical about the brand name, I
looked this boat over
at least a half dozen times before I decided to buy it. I kept looking
for a reason *not* to buy it, and couldn't find one, and in the process
I discovered a bunch of things about it that I like very much."

IMO, the newer and or the larger the Bayliner- the better the boat.
They still build a little
16-footer that sells for close to $10k and is built strictly to be an
entry level boat. It's not really indicative of the brand any more than
the Geo Metro was ever indicative of General Motors.


Great answer, Chuck! Thanks.
Just more proof that this ng has a lot to offer when on topic.
I really like my little Sea Ray, but I'll definitley avoid steering someone
away from a Bayliner based on ancient reputation.