Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

In Derek Hutchinson’s book, “The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking”, on page
48 while talking about nose clips he states “…in some cases sudden death
has been caused by water being driven up the nose”. Really? It makes
it sound like we cheat death by not wearing a nose plug.

IMO the book is less than impressive, some interesting material, but a
lot of “look at me” stuff like he wants to score points to nail some
kayaking chicks.

Has anyone heard of death by water being driven up the nose while
kayaking?

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

"Andy Baxter" wrote in message
...


In Derek Hutchinson’s book, “The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking”, on page
48 while talking about nose clips he states “…in some cases sudden death
has been caused by water being driven up the nose”. Really? It makes it
sound like we cheat death by not wearing a nose plug.

IMO the book is less than impressive, some interesting material, but a lot
of “look at me” stuff like he wants to score points to nail some kayaking
chicks.

Has anyone heard of death by water being driven up the nose while
kayaking?

LOL. I have that book, I think. Is that the one where he tells the story of
the old guy who points out to him that the boat a few miles offshore is
being pushed sideways? Ach noooo....she's movin' sideways!

As for the "look at me" attitude, hell's bells, welcome to rec.boats.paddle.

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

Andy Baxter wrote:
In Derek Hutchinson's book, "The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking", on page
48 while talking about nose clips he states "...in some cases sudden death
has been caused by water being driven up the nose". Really? It makes
it sound like we cheat death by not wearing a nose plug.

snip

Has anyone heard of death by water being driven up the nose while
kayaking?

Nope, I did read about death by water in the lungs occurring hours
later, up to a day after the victim had gotten (even a little bit of)
water in their lungs. But sudden death?

Wilko

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d s enl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

KMAN wrote:
"Andy Baxter" wrote in message
...


In Derek Hutchinson's book, "The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking", on page
48 while talking about nose clips he states "...in some cases sudden death
has been caused by water being driven up the nose". Really? It makes it
sound like we cheat death by not wearing a nose plug.

IMO the book is less than impressive, some interesting material, but a lot
of "look at me" stuff like he wants to score points to nail some kayaking
chicks.

Has anyone heard of death by water being driven up the nose while
kayaking?


never heard of this. i suppose one could be driven to gag, vomit, then
aspirate acidic fluid to get severe enough bronchoconstriction to
suffocate. this is highly unlikely, though. the lungs are *very* good
about keeping water out. in many cases people drown, not by inhaling
water, but simply by being underwater with closed lungs.

sounds like a bit of urban (or not so urban) legend.

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

On Soulboater.com this (German language) article was postet recently:

http://www.soulboater.com/sbt2004/co...=7805&lang=deu

Below the translated text of the sea kayaker magazine, a doctor
explains what happens if you (almost) get water in your lungs. He talks
about "dry drowning" and a near drowning where in the case of the "dry
drowning" the "Laryngospasmus" in the victim causes to shut off all air
to the lungs. This usually also causes a lot of water to go to the
stomach.

The other situation of the "near drowning", the doctor mentions clear
and sal****er "near drownings".

Some other articles about the effects of near drowning:

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic744.htm

http://scuba-doc.com/hypoth.htm
(a bit down the page is about "near drowning")

Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist...
:-)

Wilko

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

"Andy Baxter" wrote in message
...


In Derek Hutchinson’s book, “The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking”, on page
48 while talking about nose clips he states “…in some cases sudden death
has been caused by water being driven up the nose”. Really? It makes it
sound like we cheat death by not wearing a nose plug.

IMO the book is less than impressive, some interesting material, but a lot
of “look at me” stuff like he wants to score points to nail some kayaking
chicks.

Has anyone heard of death by water being driven up the nose while
kayaking?

Considering how often whitewater kayakers roll, and I've never heard of a
single case of a kayaker dying like that, I suspect it's total BS. Sure,
there's always a comfort factor--getting water up your nose is not fun, but
it won't kill you. (You might cough and sputter a bit after rolling, but
you'll be alive!)

-Paul

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

well, as i said, it could happen. and as a physician, i have seen cases
of aspiration pneumonia where people die pretty quickly. however, as a
paddler, i have had water up my nose constantly, and i have never even
come close to this. I suspect in order for this to be a reality, it
would be necessary for water to go much further than your nose. the
original claim that water up the nose can be fatal, IMHO, is wrong.

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

Well, you omitted the rest of the reference: " - - bear in mind that - -
in some cases sudden death has been caused by water being driven up the
nose. This has either slowed or arrested the heart through a reflex action
involving the vagus nerve". (I guess I could Google that if I wanted to.)

And he then cites the relevant source.

So it makes much more sense I guess to read it in it's entirety. Never heard
of it myself, but clearly there is a precedent.

As to his style, bear in mind that book was first published in 1976 (mine is
1997 - the ref is on p.36) and writign styles and attitudes have moved a bit
since the days of the "expert" who knows it all and to whom we ahve to
defer. Today, would it would be written in a more holistic and
self-exploratoty way, to encourage personal discovery?

Anyway, the man is something of a guru in his own way!




"Andy Baxter" wrote in message
...


In Derek Hutchinson’s book, “The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking”, on page
48 while talking about nose clips he states “…in some cases sudden death
has been caused by water being driven up the nose”. Really? It makes it
sound like we cheat death by not wearing a nose plug.

IMO the book is less than impressive, some interesting material, but a lot
of “look at me” stuff like he wants to score points to nail some kayaking
chicks.

Has anyone heard of death by water being driven up the nose while
kayaking?

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

You're the physician - see mine earlier - what IS the "vagus" nerve? And
does the source Huthison cites have any credibility? (Keatinge, W.R -
Survival in cold water - Blackwell Scientific Publishers (1969)


"Steven" wrote in message
ups.com...
well, as i said, it could happen. and as a physician, i have seen cases
of aspiration pneumonia where people die pretty quickly. however, as a
paddler, i have had water up my nose constantly, and i have never even
come close to this. I suspect in order for this to be a reality, it
would be necessary for water to go much further than your nose. the
original claim that water up the nose can be fatal, IMHO, is wrong.

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

i think he may be referring to the mammalian diving reflex, which is a
significant reduction of pulse and breathing rate when a person gets
immersed suddenly in cold water. you can try this yourself by filling
the sink with icewater, monitoring your pulse, then putting your face
in the water for 10 seconds or so. not sure i've heard of death
resulting from this, tho it could happen i suppose. more commonly,
this reflex can keep people alive for upwards of an hour underwater.
there have been cases of people recovered from icy ponds , who were
under water for extended periods of time, but had no residual bran
damage from it.

the vagus nerve is the 9th cranial nerve, that leaves the brain and
controls a whole range of activities. i'm not sure how getting water up
the nose per se would have much of an effect, but it is hard to imagine
getting water up the nose w/o getting one's face wet as well.

Rob wrote:
You're the physician - see mine earlier - what IS the "vagus" nerve? And
does the source Huthison cites have any credibility? (Keatinge, W.R -
Survival in cold water - Blackwell Scientific Publishers (1969)


"Steven" wrote in message
ups.com...
well, as i said, it could happen. and as a physician, i have seen cases
of aspiration pneumonia where people die pretty quickly. however, as a
paddler, i have had water up my nose constantly, and i have never even
come close to this. I suspect in order for this to be a reality, it
would be necessary for water to go much further than your nose. the
original claim that water up the nose can be fatal, IMHO, is wrong.

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

LOL. Open mouth, insert foot.

--riverman

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

Unfortunately I'm familiar with this since it's what happened to me back in
1996. Strangely though, it was the most peaceful feeling I had ever had in
my life when I quit breathing. Coming back to was the scary part.

Courtney


"Wilko" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Soulboater.com this (German language) article was postet recently:


http://www.soulboater.com/sbt2004/co...=7805&lang=deu

Below the translated text of the sea kayaker magazine, a doctor
explains what happens if you (almost) get water in your lungs. He talks
about "dry drowning" and a near drowning where in the case of the "dry
drowning" the "Laryngospasmus" in the victim causes to shut off all air
to the lungs. This usually also causes a lot of water to go to the
stomach.

The other situation of the "near drowning", the doctor mentions clear
and sal****er "near drownings".

Some other articles about the effects of near drowning:

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic744.htm

http://scuba-doc.com/hypoth.htm
(a bit down the page is about "near drowning")

Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist...
:-)

Wilko

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

Didn't we have a long thread here about 6 years back about near-death
drowning experiences folks here had had?

--riverman

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

in article , riverman
at wrote on 1/12/06 11:35 PM:

Didn't we have a long thread here about 6 years back about near-death
drowning experiences folks here had had?

--riverman

I'd like to see that! People who drown but don't die...

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

What do you mean by 'die'? ;-)

--riverman

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

in article , riverman at
wrote on 1/13/06 12:12 AM:

What do you mean by 'die'? ;-)

--riverman

I mean so dead that even the Michael Daly Hand Of God manoevre won't save
you!

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

Well, yes of course I misstated and you get a point.

I meant "near-drowning experience" or "near-death experience".
"Near-death drowning experience" could bwe argued as an oxymoron. In
most circles, the definition of drowning explicitly includes death, but
there is that grey area of 'what is death' and is it irreversible.

Then, there's the semantic question of if someone is 'in the process of
drowning' and does not clinically die, were they ever 'drowning'?

--riverman
(no good will come of this, I can predict)

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

in article , riverman
at wrote on 1/13/06 1:12 AM:

Well, yes of course I misstated and you get a point.

I meant "near-drowning experience" or "near-death experience".
"Near-death drowning experience" could bwe argued as an oxymoron. In
most circles, the definition of drowning explicitly includes death, but
there is that grey area of 'what is death' and is it irreversible.

Then, there's the semantic question of if someone is 'in the process of
drowning' and does not clinically die, were they ever 'drowning'?

--riverman
(no good will come of this, I can predict)

LOL

Not to worry, I'm done :-D

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

Me too, but with any luck, that's irrelevant. Its been sort of quiet
around here...
:-D

--riverman

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

On 13-Jan-2006, KMAN wrote:

I mean so dead that even the Michael Daly Hand Of God manoevre won't save
you!

Since when have I been associated with that technique?

Why do you keep claiming that you don't make derogatory comments about people
and then post crap like this?

Do you keep changing your email address so that you can avoid all the killfiles?

Mike

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 13-Jan-2006, KMAN wrote:

I mean so dead that even the Michael Daly Hand Of God manoevre won't save
you!

Since when have I been associated with that technique?

Not sure, I'll give a google and see.

I found this and some other hits: http://tinyurl.com/99aup

Why do you keep claiming that you don't make derogatory comments
about people and then post crap like this?

What are you babbling about? I'm having a laugh here. It just popped in my
head I've seen you bragging about doing the Hand Of God a few times, so it
was a funny reference given the topic.

Do you keep changing your email address so that you can avoid all the
killfiles?

Mike

I'm not aware of any changes to my email address, but killfiles are for the
feeble-minded. Can't you just refrain from opening messages from me if you
don't want to see them? And are you really so fragile that you can't handle
it?

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

"Andy Baxter" wrote in message
...


Has anyone heard of death by water being driven up the nose while
kayaking?

No. I wonder if this author has confused the phenomenon with "gasp reflex"
which is mentioned at http://www.ckayak.com/coldwater.html and elsewhere. I
read about this in conjunction with preparing lessons for rescuers in
cold-water drowning and rescue.

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

On 13-Jan-2006, "KMAN" wrote:

I found this and some other hits: http://tinyurl.com/99aup

've mentioned it a few times. Hardly bragging. And that still doesn't
mean that there's any real association of the technique with me.

I'm not aware of any changes to my email address

A brief list:


:

.

Too bad you can't post under your real name.

Can't you just refrain from opening messages from me if you
don't want to see them

Zapping your messages in advance improves this newsgroup's signal
to noise ratio.

Mike

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:10:19 GMT, Michael Daly wrote:

On 13-Jan-2006, "KMAN" wrote:

I found this and some other hits: http://tinyurl.com/99aup

've mentioned it a few times. Hardly bragging. And that still doesn't
mean that there's any real association of the technique with me.

I'm not aware of any changes to my email address

A brief list:


:

.

Too bad you can't post under your real name.

Can't you just refrain from opening messages from me if you
don't want to see them

Zapping your messages in advance improves this newsgroup's signal
to noise ratio.

Mike

Michael, apart from the noise, as I understand the technique, when a
kayaker is inverted in a kayak, having blown a roll, the kayaker
reaches a hand up along side the hull of their inverted kayak, and
another kayaker grabs his hand to assist recovery by pulling the
inverted kayaker back up right. Having been in that position a few
times, and not having mastered the roll, I was grateful for the hand
of God that pulled me back up. I really did not care who the other
hand was attached to.

If you have been in a position to assist some less skilled kayakers, I
am sure they appreciated your expertise. I expect that a kayaker would
have had to actually found themselves inverted to appreciate the
technique, while at the same time those who only talk about rolling,
can find it superfulous! OvO

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

In message .com,
Wilko writes
Andy Baxter wrote:
In Derek Hutchinson's book, "The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking", on page
48 while talking about nose clips he states "...in some cases sudden death
has been caused by water being driven up the nose". Really? It makes
it sound like we cheat death by not wearing a nose plug.

snip

Has anyone heard of death by water being driven up the nose while
kayaking?

Nope, I did read about death by water in the lungs occurring hours
later, up to a day after the victim had gotten (even a little bit of)
water in their lungs. But sudden death?

Aka secondary drowning



Wilko

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d s enl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/


--
Dave Manby

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

Go kayak surfing and by his theory of water up your nose you should
drown!

In message . com,
Steven writes
well, as i said, it could happen. and as a physician, i have seen cases
of aspiration pneumonia where people die pretty quickly. however, as a
paddler, i have had water up my nose constantly, and i have never even
come close to this. I suspect in order for this to be a reality, it
would be necessary for water to go much further than your nose. the
original claim that water up the nose can be fatal, IMHO, is wrong.


--
Dave Manby

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

Rob wrote:

Well, you omitted the rest of the reference: " - - bear in mind that - -
in some cases sudden death has been caused by water being driven up the
nose. This has either slowed or arrested the heart through a reflex action
involving the vagus nerve". (I guess I could Google that if I wanted to.)
And he then cites the relevant source.

If you do Google Keatinge, the guy he references, you find that he has
been extensively used as a reference in a lot of articles on hypothermia

So it makes much more sense I guess to read it in it's entirety. Never heard
of it myself, but clearly there is a precedent.

At least once, I guess.

As to his style, bear in mind that book was first published in 1976 (mine is
1997 - the ref is on p.36) and writign styles and attitudes have moved a bit
since the days of the "expert" who knows it all and to whom we ahve to
defer. Today, would it would be written in a more holistic and
self-exploratoty way, to encourage personal discovery?

Not by Derek, it wouldn't. Although since his quad bypass and the death
of his wife, he does seem a bit subdued compared to 5-10 years ago.

Anyway, the man is something of a guru in his own way!

And if you have any doubt of that, you have only to ask him.

Steve




"Andy Baxter" wrote in message
...


In Derek Hutchinson’s book, “The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking”, on page
48 while talking about nose clips he states “…in some cases sudden death
has been caused by water being driven up the nose”. Really? It makes it
sound like we cheat death by not wearing a nose plug.

IMO the book is less than impressive, some interesting material, but a lot
of “look at me” stuff like he wants to score points to nail some kayaking
chicks.

Has anyone heard of death by water being driven up the nose while
kayaking?





--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

"riverman" wrote in message
oups.com...
Didn't we have a long thread here about 6 years back about near-death
drowning experiences folks here had had?

Yes. That was a good thread. Has it really been that long? My, how time goes
by...

There was also a thread about how many of us are terrified of drowning and
why we boat...

Rebecca Lightning

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 1/14/06 2:10 AM:


On 13-Jan-2006, "KMAN" wrote:

I found this and some other hits: http://tinyurl.com/99aup

've mentioned it a few times. Hardly bragging. And that still doesn't
mean that there's any real association of the technique with me.

I got another hit where you are talking about a beginner who would have
drowned had you not saved them with your Hand Of God.

I'm not aware of any changes to my email address

A brief list:


:

.

Whoever used it wasn't me.

I've used the other three over the course of several years and from several
computers, but that's hardly a case of constantly changed my email address
now is it?

Too bad you can't post under your real name.

Can't you just refrain from opening messages from me if you
don't want to see them

Zapping your messages in advance improves this newsgroup's signal
to noise ratio.

Mike

In other words, you can't manage to simply not read messages from me using
your own will power.

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

Michael Daly wrote:
On 13-Jan-2006, "KMAN" wrote:
Too bad you can't post under your real name.


Can't you just refrain from opening messages from me if you
don't want to see them

Zapping your messages in advance improves this newsgroup's signal
to noise ratio.

Mike

Isn't it sad that two individuals post more individual posts than the
rest combined to this newsgroup?

What's even more pathetic is that the trolls stoop ever lower trying to
get someone, anyone to respond to them, giving them the negative
attention that they crave for. If all else fails, launch personal
attacks, that might get someone to acknowledge their pitiful existence.

Personally, I look forward to having someone around who can help out
when anyone in our group has gotten in trouble. Especially when that
person has experience in giving first aid. I'll go paddle with you
anytime, Mike!

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

in article , Wilko at
wrote on 1/14/06 2:36 PM:

Michael Daly wrote:
On 13-Jan-2006, "KMAN" wrote:
Too bad you can't post under your real name.


Can't you just refrain from opening messages from me if you
don't want to see them

Zapping your messages in advance improves this newsgroup's signal
to noise ratio.

Mike

Isn't it sad that two individuals post more individual posts than the
rest combined to this newsgroup?

What's even more pathetic is that the trolls stoop ever lower trying to
get someone, anyone to respond to them, giving them the negative
attention that they crave for. If all else fails, launch personal
attacks, that might get someone to acknowledge their pitiful existence.

Personally, I look forward to having someone around who can help out
when anyone in our group has gotten in trouble. Especially when that
person has experience in giving first aid. I'll go paddle with you
anytime, Mike!

Agh! Just when Mike's egometer was already on overdrive, you go and blow the
transmission!

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

On 14-Jan-2006, KMAN wrote:

Agh! Just when Mike's egometer was already on overdrive, you go and blow the
transmission!

There you go with another gratuitous insult. Why don't you just grow up!

plonk

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

I was actually formally taught a "hand of god" rescue in an all day class
last August but it was described using a different name. I'd never seen
it
described such that that capsized paddler would reach up with a hand for a
rescue. The technique that I was shown was for a paddler, upside down and
still in the cockpit, but for one reason or another in unable to assist
with
their own rescue. It was simply called a 'trapped paddler rescue" and
rather than grab a hand, which could possible be attached to the arm of a
dislocated shoulder, grabbing the pfd was recommended.

This is the way that I learned the technique as well and have always taught
it that way as an instructor. You never know what injuries the upsidedown
person may have and always need to be cautious. As a whitewater paddler I
was taught that the name was the "hand of God" rescue. Whatever the name
though it really doesn't matter to me since it all refers to the same thing.

I wouldn't consider any technique which might be used to return to an
upright position superflous. While the term "bomb proof roll" is also
thrown around a lot I don't think it's every a good idea to put all your
eggs in one basket when it comes to your own safety. There are just too
many possible scenarios that might result in failing to roll for even the
most accomplished of paddlers.

I agree with you again. When I referred to my "almost drowning" incident in
an earlier post, I had a paddle and a hand roll on both sides for years that
had never failed me, and well, in that particular case, sh-t happened and
nothing worked. That's why to this day when I'm getting ready to run a new
rapid that makes my stomach turn I think of all the scenarios including
where to swim to if things don't go the way I had planned.

Courtney

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

"Courtney" wrote in message
nk.net...
I was actually formally taught a "hand of god" rescue in an all day class
last August but it was described using a different name. I'd never seen
it
described such that that capsized paddler would reach up with a hand for
a
rescue. The technique that I was shown was for a paddler, upside down
and
still in the cockpit, but for one reason or another in unable to assist
with
their own rescue. It was simply called a 'trapped paddler rescue" and
rather than grab a hand, which could possible be attached to the arm of a
dislocated shoulder, grabbing the pfd was recommended.

This is the way that I learned the technique as well and have always
taught
it that way as an instructor. You never know what injuries the upsidedown
person may have and always need to be cautious.

Just to throw my 2-sense in, remember that someone suffering an obstructed
airway (like by hanging upside down in their kayak) has a higher level of
need than someone with a dislocated shoulder, or even a broken neck.
Although you don't *want* to complicate things by grabbing their hand and
exasorbating their other injuries, if they've been out of air for a few
minutes and time is getting urgent, grabbing their arm, hair, PFD or
moustache to get them right side up is the preferred course. Worry about the
next life-threatening thing once you've relieved the first.

--riverman

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 1/14/06 4:10 PM:


On 14-Jan-2006, KMAN wrote:

Agh! Just when Mike's egometer was already on overdrive, you go and blow the
transmission!

There you go with another gratuitous insult. Why don't you just grow up!

plonk

Nice demonstration of maturity!

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

On 14-Jan-2006, John Fereira wrote:

but with a name
like Daly I doubt that he's spent much time in an igloo.

I have spent nights in a quinzee. Is that close enough? :-)

Mike

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

With all the talk about "Hand of God" rescues here, I thought I'd post
a copy of this message was posted on the QAJAQ-USA Message board on
Friday, 17 June 2005, at 12:30 p.m. by Don Beale. It discusses the
"Hand of God" technique as demonstrated by Pavia Lumbolt at the 2005
SSTIKS event.

"Pavia showed us a MUCH better way to do a Hand of God rescue. Always
before, wed grap the PFD of the victim, push them down on the back
deck, and haul them up with one hand on the PFD and one hand on the
coaming.

Pavia has us go behind them, get ahold of the boat, and rotate it
partway up so the victim is at the surface of the water. Lets say they
are on your right-hand side... ANd youre bow-to-stern, so thier stern
is on your right and they are behind you... Now grab the boats sheer
(the one further from you)with your left hand, and push down on the
closer side of the hull with your right - rotating them up so thier
floating at the surface. Now, holding the boat with your left hand,
reach clear down on the outside with your right hand and grab thier
boat by the opposite sheer. Now your grip on thier boat is secure -
your left hand on the up sheer side, and your right hand reaching
across and ahold of thier down sheer side.

Now roll underneath thier boat. Use your leverage as you roll down to
pull their boat upright over the top of you. And then use thier boat to
roll yourself back up.

Try it - its a lot easier to do than it is to describe - and its a LOT
more powerful. Youre essentially pulling thier boat upright over the
top of you, instead of pulling them up and pushing thier boat
underneath. When we did it, Pavia had us remain rigid and hold the
coaming - making it almost impossible to do it the old way - and its so
easy its amazing. He then has us flailing around, and fighting the
rescue. Bottom line is that you pull up the victim, no matter what they
are doing.

Another advantage is that you can do this from behind the victim, where
they cant get ahold of you. No risk of a half-concious panicky person
pulling your glasses off, or holding you under... "

That's it - For more info on this topic, check out
http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/Gree...orum_config.pl , go
to bottom of screen and enter "Hand of God" into SEARCH criteria.

Best,
Ed

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
"riverman" wrote in :


"Courtney" wrote in message
nk.net...
I was actually formally taught a "hand of god" rescue in an all day
class last August but it was described using a different name. I'd
never seen it described such that that capsized paddler would reach
up with a hand for a rescue. The technique that I was shown was for
a paddler, upside down and still in the cockpit, but for one reason
or another in unable to assist with their own rescue. It was simply
called a 'trapped paddler rescue" and rather than grab a hand, which
could possible be attached to the arm of a dislocated shoulder,
grabbing the pfd was recommended.

This is the way that I learned the technique as well and have always
taught it that way as an instructor. You never know what injuries the
upsidedown person may have and always need to be cautious.

Just to throw my 2-sense in, remember that someone suffering an
obstructed airway (like by hanging upside down in their kayak) has a
higher level of need than someone with a dislocated shoulder, or even a
broken neck. Although you don't *want* to complicate things by grabbing
their hand and exasorbating their other injuries, if they've been out
of air for a few minutes and time is getting urgent, grabbing their
arm, hair, PFD or moustache to get them right side up is the preferred
course. Worry about the next life-threatening thing once you've
relieved the first.

You certainly make a good point. I was taught the "hand of god" rescue
such
that it was performed in two stages. The first order of business is to get
the victims face out of the water, which could be done by reaching around
and grabbing the victims pfd or even the cockpit rim while pushing down on
the edge of boat closest to you. Assuming the victim *can* breath and
respond at that point you can then grab whatever is necessary to bring the
victim completely upright.

Good points as well. I used this method once when a friend of mine got her
leg twisted up in the boat and couldn't get out. We were still going
through a rapid and the hardest part was still to come. It's nice to know
that there's something pretty easy like that to use when a situation goes
wrong.

Courtney

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

Interesting - the search isn't producing any results - could you just psot
the link to the specific thread pleae?


"Qajaq" wrote in message
oups.com...
With all the talk about "Hand of God" rescues here, I thought I'd post
a copy of this message was posted on the QAJAQ-USA Message board on
Friday, 17 June 2005, at 12:30 p.m. by Don Beale. It discusses the
"Hand of God" technique as demonstrated by Pavia Lumbolt at the 2005
SSTIKS event.

"Pavia showed us a MUCH better way to do a Hand of God rescue. Always
before, wed grap the PFD of the victim, push them down on the back
deck, and haul them up with one hand on the PFD and one hand on the
coaming.

Pavia has us go behind them, get ahold of the boat, and rotate it
partway up so the victim is at the surface of the water. Lets say they
are on your right-hand side... ANd youre bow-to-stern, so thier stern
is on your right and they are behind you... Now grab the boats sheer
(the one further from you)with your left hand, and push down on the
closer side of the hull with your right - rotating them up so thier
floating at the surface. Now, holding the boat with your left hand,
reach clear down on the outside with your right hand and grab thier
boat by the opposite sheer. Now your grip on thier boat is secure -
your left hand on the up sheer side, and your right hand reaching
across and ahold of thier down sheer side.

Now roll underneath thier boat. Use your leverage as you roll down to
pull their boat upright over the top of you. And then use thier boat to
roll yourself back up.

Try it - its a lot easier to do than it is to describe - and its a LOT
more powerful. Youre essentially pulling thier boat upright over the
top of you, instead of pulling them up and pushing thier boat
underneath. When we did it, Pavia had us remain rigid and hold the
coaming - making it almost impossible to do it the old way - and its so
easy its amazing. He then has us flailing around, and fighting the
rescue. Bottom line is that you pull up the victim, no matter what they
are doing.

Another advantage is that you can do this from behind the victim, where
they cant get ahold of you. No risk of a half-concious panicky person
pulling your glasses off, or holding you under... "

That's it - For more info on this topic, check out
http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/Gree...orum_config.pl , go
to bottom of screen and enter "Hand of God" into SEARCH criteria.

Best,
Ed

Death by Eskimo Roll?
 

Rob -
Can't really seem to generate a link that brings up the thread,
sorry...
But if you log onto the www.qajaqusa.org website,
click on "Greenland Forums",
click on "Greenland Kayaking Forums:"
scroll down to bottom of MESSSAGE INDEX and click on SEARCH,
change "Posted within the last " selection to "Year",
click on radio button for "Messages Posted By:", " Steve Ulrich"
activate Search then scroll down to topic "Hand of God" dated Friday,
17 June 2005, at 9:54 a.m., click on it,
then click on "view thread"
a thread should come up with 24 entries.
sorry couldn't give you a better procedure.
Best,
Ed