A question from a new paddler...
 

John Fereira wrote:
!Jones wrote in news:bc5qu1ph28tgephmeu5a9d77s5e923udr4@
4ax.com:

On 10 Feb 2006 14:05:00 -0800, in rec.boats.paddle
" wrote:

They do genereate a lot of power. Go here
http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/miragedrive.html and scroll down to
the videos at the bottom. Note that a drag race and cruising are
different, and a real race would probably give different results.

You still need a paddle for reverse and sideways.

Steve

Yeah, I've been through their site. We were going to rent one last
week; however, a case of pneumonia had other ideas. I have looked at
all of the product reviews and everyone just *loves* their Mirage
drive. "Why, it finds me parking places at the mall and makes my
downloads run faster!" they say... it's a bit like a religious
conversion.

Glowing recommendations are not unique to the Hobie Mirage. If you look at
the Paddling.net reviews section you'll find hundreds of different models
reviewed, primarily those that have purchased a particular model. They're
overwhelmingly positive reviews as most are probably not going to post
negatively about something they purchased.

I'd like to hear from someone who'd point out a few things they did
*not* like... I'm sure these exist.

I've never paddled one but I think of a few things I might be concerned
about.

As someone else mentioned, the mirage drive doesn't help one paddle sideways
or in reverse. For many, kayaking is much more than just going forward. It
seems to me that the primary benefit of the mirage drive is that it allows
one to get from point A to point B in a relatively straight line a little
quicker.

For those that like to do multiday expeditions it doesn't appear to provide
storage capacity though the Adventure model looks it has a small section in
the bow with a hatch cover. Is a Hobie mirage drive kayak something you
could see doing a week long trip in?

I'd be somewhat concerned about a reliance on a mechanical device to propel
the kayak. If something goes wrong with it is a paddler going to be able to
manoever the boat effectively with just a paddle if the've relied on the
mirage drive for forward propulsion rather than developing skills with a
paddle? The problem could be compounded by very windy and/or rough
conditions. As it also has a rudder, developement of steering skills using
only a paddle might not be as good as someone that only has been using a
paddle.

SOT kayaks are often very popular in warm water conditions but you don't see
too many of them in places where the water gets very cold. If you're not in
calm conditions you're likely going to get much wetter than in a closed
cockpit kayak.

Jones


I have pondered the possibility of using the Mirage drive in
combination with Hydofoils. You may have seen the short flix where the
kayak is being paddled and ends up lifting out of the water. Looks to
be in a straight line and not maneuverable, but right where the Mirage
would shine. High output, short duration, could be quite the kayak
hotrod! OvO

A question from a new paddler...
 

To answer a few questions, I paddled it with lake grass coming up from the
bottom and didn't have a problem when the blades hit the grass. I'm not
sure what would happen with weeds or sea weed though. I could see something
like that possibly getting tangled in the blades. As for wind, we didn't
have any the day I paddled it. It seemed like the boat would be fairly
comparable though to other sit on tops that I have paddled around which is
quite alot of them. I wouldn't want to paddle this boat in cold weather
though mainly because it is a sit on top. I reserve those primarily for
warm weather. As for being able to pull the pedals up, yes that part was
easy but you reminded me that once they were up it wasn't easy to store them
on the boat because they are big and bulky and there's not much room for
them. Also I wouldn't want to take multi day trips with this boat. It's
mainly a go out on the water for the day and have some fun kind of boat or
one that would give you a good work out with if you wanted. As for using
the paddle alone, the boat paddled just fine and was also comparable to
other sit on tops in that boats range.

Courtney

"!Jones" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:11:01 -0800, in rec.boats.paddle "Courtney"
wrote:

I am a whitewater kayaker and canoer and paddle sea kayaks on the side.
However, I did get the chance to try out the Hobie with the pedals but it
was several years back at Outdoor Retailer when they first came out.
Personally I really liked it. It was a fun boat since there were two
different ways of making it move in the water. It appeared to me that it
was a boat meant for fla****er or very low class I / II. I paddled it
solo
and felt I got a great work out. Then I took it out with the rep tandem
and
was amazed at how fast we had that thing going while we both of us
paddled
and peddled together. It was a stable boat and very entertaining. I
really
don't remember having anything negative to say about it except that you
had
to remember not to get into to shallow of water because of the pedals
hanging down.

Courtney

Thanks.

Where I live (Corpus Christi, TX) is bay country with lots of
brackish, protected inlets. It's tarpon & bonefish country. What we
lack in white water, we compensate in wind.

Did you find that it paddled well? I mean, without the pedals. Was
it as effective as any other similar boat?

Jones

A question from a new paddler...
 

Per Courtney:
I wouldn't want to paddle this boat in cold weather
though mainly because it is a sit on top.

I have a different reaction. One of the things I like about my surf ski is
that I *am* exposed. Less overheating when dressed for immersion and less
temptation to under-dress.
--
PeteCresswell

A question from a new paddler...
 

That's like saying you can't have a healthy marriage unless you are never
apart. You can paddle together without actually being physically joined.

No, that's not what I'm trying to say at all. A tandem sport is a
completely different animal from its solo counterpart. The tandem
aspect introduces its own set of challenges and rewards. That one
couple chooses a tandem sport in no way dinigrates those who choose to
participate solo.

.... and I don't believe that I ever even mentioned the health of a
marriage.

I recall that tandem bicycles were once a common part of a wedding.
One doesn't see that done so much anymore. ("Daisy, Daisy... give me
your answer, do.") I suppose that enough wedding nights were spent in
emergency rooms to where people finally got the idea that this was a
poor idea.

Jones

A question from a new paddler...
 

Probably about the same as most recreational kayaks. All of the models are
very wide and appear to have hulls designed primarily for initial stability.
For a kayak to be most agile it one should be able to tilt the hull (edging)
while performing a sweep or ruddering stroke a high initial stability limits
(by definition) the ability to edge the boat.

That's not surprising. All of life is a trade-off between comfort and
performance!

Jones

A question from a new paddler...
 

I was gonna put rope and 'beaners on it and see if I could climb a
cliff!!!

A question from a new paddler...
 

!Jones wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:10:03 GMT, in rec.boats.paddle John Fereira
wrote:

I've never paddled one but I think of a few things I might be concerned
about.

As someone else mentioned, the mirage drive doesn't help one paddle sideways
or in reverse. For many, kayaking is much more than just going forward. It
seems to me that the primary benefit of the mirage drive is that it allows
one to get from point A to point B in a relatively straight line a little
quicker.

For those that like to do multiday expeditions it doesn't appear to provide
storage capacity though the Adventure model looks it has a small section in
the bow with a hatch cover. Is a Hobie mirage drive kayak something you
could see doing a week long trip in?

I'd be somewhat concerned about a reliance on a mechanical device to propel
the kayak. If something goes wrong with it is a paddler going to be able to
manoever the boat effectively with just a paddle if the've relied on the
mirage drive for forward propulsion rather than developing skills with a
paddle? The problem could be compounded by very windy and/or rough
conditions. As it also has a rudder, developement of steering skills using
only a paddle might not be as good as someone that only has been using a
paddle.

SOT kayaks are often very popular in warm water conditions but you don't see
too many of them in places where the water gets very cold. If you're not in
calm conditions you're likely going to get much wetter than in a closed
cockpit kayak.

All valid issues that need to be addressed, IMO.

I wonder if they're reasonably agile with just a paddle? With a
tandem, the mechanical drives are independent, so they probably
wouldn't both fail at the same time... then again, the designers of
the Titanic used similar logic.

Methinks that it would fit our proposed use well; however, there's
just something aesthetically unpleasing about the boat from the
polyethelene material to the mechanical drive. The wooden hulls are
much nicer to look at.

If you're using a sail on a kayak, don't you need a board of some type
that keeps you from being pushed sideways? ... or is a sail strictly
a down wind device?

Jones

Jones, I paddle a Folbot and a Klepper folder, both doubles. These are
very seaworthy boats, some call them decked canoes. They have the
advantage of a larger semi-open cockpit like a canoe, but can be
completely covered with spraydeck.

From reading your concerns, you are looking for something family
friendly, and depending on the size of the children, you can put two
adults with a small child. These are beamyer, than the regular
seakayak, so are not as apt to roll, which with children, I would not
expect you plan to do much of. The tandem configuration is not
impossible to roll, and has been demonstrated by proficient paddlers.

They have a lower center of gravity and a lower profile than a canoe,
so they are not as subject to the wind. They can be paddled with a
double or single paddle, which allows you to choose your preferance
depending on prevailing conditions. I prefer the single especially if
there is a wind blowing and you don't need the second paddle up in the
wind. This is especially handy when sailing, to be able to use a single
paddle is more maneuverable with the sail rig in place.

You might want to consider these as an option. Folders tend to be more
expensive than poly seakayaks, but hold there resale value a whole lot
better. They can be stored easier if that is an issue, and transported
disassembled, which lends itself to carrying more than one if necessary
with your larger family. You should be able to find them more widely
available than the Hobie/Mirage, and should not be subject to regional
limitations due to cold water, or warm temps either. They are used all
around the world from expeditions in Alaska, to the Congo, to the
Danube. Folks fish from them, photograph wildlife, and as myself, just
toole around in them. RkyMtnHootOwl OvO

A question from a new paddler...
 

Per !Jones:
Do you mean, like, wet suits? I have one for surf fishing. My
partner does not. Mine look like bib overalls... they work OK in the
surf unless I fall.

Mostly a dry suit. Better upper body mobility. Used to use a Bare Polar: bag
top, neo bottom. Now I have a Koketat all-bag.

I still have mixed feelings about which one I like better. One advantage of
the Koketat is that I can vary the under layers depending on water temp. Two
advantages of the Bare are lower body streamlining (if you have to swim in a
sprint to catch a drifting windsurfer or surf ski) and lower body padding (i.e..
fewer minor bruises when you get tumbled).

One unexpected downside of the Koketat for me is that I'm soooo dry, sooooo
warm, and soooo unencumbered when windsurfing that it's almost surreal - almost
like playing a video game instead of really being in/on the water.

A potential fallacy in any bag dry suit is not wearing enough under it for
immersion. There's a conflict between comfort out of the water while paddling
and survivability in cold water.

When the water's warm, I just wear nylon shorts and a life vest. In that case,
there's also a temperature advantage to a sit-on-top in that whenever I feel the
need, I just roll off the ski into the nice cool water for a few minutes. No
re-entry techniques needed.... just throw a leg over the thing, plop my butt
into the seat well and go...
--
PeteCresswell

A question from a new paddler...
 

Per !Jones:
Do you have a good source for info? All I know are wet suits.

Dunno if it can be called "information", but web sites that show Bare and
Kokatat a

http://www.the-house.com/ba001zzbare.html

http://www.kokatat.com/product_drysuits.asp



Note that I misspelled Kokatat in my OP.



--
PeteCresswell

A question from a new paddler...
 

Per !Jones:
Do you have a good source for info? All I know are wet suits.

Also, think windsurfing - not diving. Suits sold for windsurfers offer much
better upper-body mobility than those for divers - and there are *lots* of
retail windsurfing stores online.
--
PeteCresswell