Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

Harry Krause wrote:
Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
A passenger on Flight 924 gives his account of the shooting and says
Rigoberto Alpizar never claimed to have a bomb
By SIOBHAN MORRISSEY/MIAMI
(Time Magazine)
Posted Thursday, Dec. 08, 2005
At least one passenger aboard American Airlines Flight 924 maintains
the federal air marshals were a little too quick on the draw when they
shot and killed Rigoberto Alpizar as he frantically attempted to run
off the airplane shortly before take-off.

"I don't think they needed to use deadly force with the guy," says John
McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker from Sebastian, Fla. "He
was getting off the plane." McAlhany also maintains that Alpizar never
mentioned having a bomb.

"I never heard the word 'bomb' on the plane," McAlhany told TIME in a
telephone interview. "I never heard the word bomb until the FBI asked
me did you hear the word bomb. That is ridiculous." Even the
authorities didn't come out and say bomb, McAlhany says. "They asked,
'Did you hear anything about the b-word?'" he says. "That's what they
called it."

When the incident began McAlhany was in seat 24C, in the middle of the
plane. "[Alpizar] was in the back," McAlhany says, "a few seats from
the back bathroom. He sat down." Then, McAlhany says, "I heard an
argument with his wife. He was saying 'I have to get off the plane.'
She said, 'Calm down.'"

Alpizar took off running down the aisle, with his wife close behind
him. "She was running behind him saying, 'He's sick. He's sick. He's
ill. He's got a disorder," McAlhany recalls. "I don't know if she said
bipolar disorder [as one witness has alleged]. She was trying to
explain to the marshals that he was ill. He just wanted to get off the
plane."


McAlhany described Alpizar as carrying a big backpack and wearing a
fanny pack in front. He says it would have been impossible for Alpizar
to lie flat on the floor of the plane, as marshals ordered him to do,
with the fanny pack on. "You can't get on the ground with a fanny
pack," he says. "You have to move it to the side."

By the time Alpizar made it to the front of the airplane, the crew had
ordered the rest of the passengers to get down between the seats. "I
didn't see him get shot," he says. "They kept telling me to get down. I
heard about five shots."

McAlhany says he tried to see what was happening just in case he needed
to take evasive action. "I wanted to make sure if anything was coming
toward me and they were killing passengers I would have a chance to
break somebody's neck," he says. "I was looking through the seats
because I wanted to see what was coming.

"I was on the phone with my brother. Somebody came down the aisle and
put a shotgun to the back of my head and said put your hands on the
seat in front of you. I got my cell phone karate chopped out of my
hand. Then I realized it was an official."

In the ensuing events, many of the passengers began crying in fear, he
recalls. "They were pointing the guns directly at us instead of
pointing them to the ground," he says "One little girl was crying.
There was a lady crying all the way to the hotel."

McAlhany said he saw Alpizar before the flight and is absolutely
stunned by what unfolded on the airplane. He says he saw Alpizar eating
a sandwich in the boarding area before getting on the plane. He looked
normal at that time, McAlhany says. He thinks the whole thing was a
mistake: "I don't believe he should be dead right now."
--
Cheney, Dick=The greater of two evils.


It was a sad and tragic event. However, with all of the millions of air
miles that sky marshalls have flown and this the first shooting it
would be really hard to make a case that the sky marshalls are just
trigger happy idiots who like to hear their guns go "bang."
Something caused them to kill this guy, and it probably wasn't caprice
or boredom.

If the witness didn't hear the guy claim he had a bomb, then the
witness (had he been a sky marshall instead of witness) probably
wouldn't have shot him. Yes, it could have been a mistake- but it
probably wasn't a deliberate assassination.

The only remotely positive aspect of this tragedy is that if there are
any terrorist *******s wondering if there are really sky marshalls on
at least some US flights, it certainly demonstrates that there are.

You couldn't begin to compare this situation with say, Kent State, for
example.

I think I might have seen a sky marshall as we went through security
for one of the four legs of our recent flight to Argentia. He walked up
to the security screening area, called an inspector aside, showed him a
badge, said "law enforcement" and then some other word that didn't seem
to make sense (maybe the password of the day?). He was allowed in
without having to pass through the metal detector.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

DARN DARN DARN. I was hoping they were crazed government workers shooting
innocent travelers under direct orders from Bush.

I guess I am off to find another news article to cut and paste.


"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On 8 Dec 2005 18:31:54 -0800, wrote:

You couldn't begin to compare this situation with say, Kent State, for
example.

I'm betting that by tomorrow, it will be a racial incident and that
the Reverend Jackson will be right in the middle of it.

Interesting though that it's the second Brazilian shot dead in the
past six months or so for refusing to respond to police commands.

Anyway, there were more witness reports of the guy talking about bomb
that the two who said they never heard it, so it probably was a good
shoot. Those guys have a tough job - I hope the Marshall can handle
it without falling apart.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:24:01 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 18:31:54 -0800, wrote:

You couldn't begin to compare this situation with say, Kent State, for
example.
I'm betting that by tomorrow, it will be a racial incident and that
the Reverend Jackson will be right in the middle of it.

Interesting though that it's the second Brazilian shot dead in the
past six months or so for refusing to respond to police commands.

Anyway, there were more witness reports of the guy talking about bomb
that the two who said they never heard it, so it probably was a good
shoot. Those guys have a tough job - I hope the Marshall can handle
it without falling apart.
The fellow who was shot was a US citizen, and I believe he was a native
of Costa Rica.

Hmmm - report I saw said Brazil. Hey, critical incidents create a lot
of fog and false impressions - the guys main mistake was not stopping
when he was told to.


Yeah, well, if he were suffering from a serious mental illness, he might
not have heard the commands or he might have thought they were coming from
spiders, or, well, who knows, eh?

But the bottom line is that he did not stop. How were the marshal's to know
he was bipolar? Bang-bang.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 18:31:54 -0800, wrote:

You couldn't begin to compare this situation with say, Kent State, for
example.

I'm betting that by tomorrow, it will be a racial incident and that
the Reverend Jackson will be right in the middle of it.

Interesting though that it's the second Brazilian shot dead in the
past six months or so for refusing to respond to police commands.

Anyway, there were more witness reports of the guy talking about bomb
that the two who said they never heard it, so it probably was a good
shoot. Those guys have a tough job - I hope the Marshall can handle
it without falling apart.



The fellow who was shot was a US citizen, and I believe he was a native of
Costa Rica.

Apparently, he's been here since 1986. More than enough time to understand
shouted requests to show his hands, put down the bag, etc.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 18:31:54 -0800, wrote:

You couldn't begin to compare this situation with say, Kent State, for
example.
I'm betting that by tomorrow, it will be a racial incident and that
the Reverend Jackson will be right in the middle of it.

Interesting though that it's the second Brazilian shot dead in the
past six months or so for refusing to respond to police commands.

Anyway, there were more witness reports of the guy talking about bomb
that the two who said they never heard it, so it probably was a good
shoot. Those guys have a tough job - I hope the Marshall can handle
it without falling apart.


The fellow who was shot was a US citizen, and I believe he was a native
of Costa Rica.

Apparently, he's been here since 1986. More than enough time to
understand shouted requests to show his hands, put down the bag, etc.

Sure, unless you suffer from a serious mental illness.

As I stated, hopefully there will be a coroner's inquest.

If you were alone in the covered ramp with him and he refused to follow your
instructions, what would YOU have done, Harry? The guy's got a backpack on
his chest, hands inside, and he's refusing to show his hands, etc. Please
describe YOUR strategy.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 18:31:54 -0800, wrote:

You couldn't begin to compare this situation with say, Kent State, for
example.
I'm betting that by tomorrow, it will be a racial incident and that
the Reverend Jackson will be right in the middle of it.

Interesting though that it's the second Brazilian shot dead in the
past six months or so for refusing to respond to police commands.

Anyway, there were more witness reports of the guy talking about bomb
that the two who said they never heard it, so it probably was a good
shoot. Those guys have a tough job - I hope the Marshall can handle
it without falling apart.


The fellow who was shot was a US citizen, and I believe he was a native
of Costa Rica.

Apparently, he's been here since 1986. More than enough time to
understand shouted requests to show his hands, put down the bag, etc.

Sure, unless you suffer from a serious mental illness.

As I stated, hopefully there will be a coroner's inquest.


So let me get this straight Harry. If one suffers from a mental illness,
claims to have a bomb, runs towards a building full of people, is ordered to
stop but does not...............that person should not be shot.

And how many sane and stable people would claim to have a bomb, run towards
a building full of people and then keep running when ordered to stop by
police?

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 06:32:35 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:24:01 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 18:31:54 -0800, wrote:

You couldn't begin to compare this situation with say, Kent State,
for
example.
I'm betting that by tomorrow, it will be a racial incident and that
the Reverend Jackson will be right in the middle of it.

Interesting though that it's the second Brazilian shot dead in the
past six months or so for refusing to respond to police commands.

Anyway, there were more witness reports of the guy talking about bomb
that the two who said they never heard it, so it probably was a good
shoot. Those guys have a tough job - I hope the Marshall can handle
it without falling apart.
The fellow who was shot was a US citizen, and I believe he was a
native of Costa Rica.
Hmmm - report I saw said Brazil. Hey, critical incidents create a lot
of fog and false impressions - the guys main mistake was not stopping
when he was told to.

Yeah, well, if he were suffering from a serious mental illness, he might
not have heard the commands or he might have thought they were coming
from spiders, or, well, who knows, eh?

Understood, but you can't make that kind of distinction in the middle
of a crisis situation. I'd bet it was horrible confused, the guy was
running, his wife was screaming - panic. The Marshal did the right
thing and can't be faulted for it as much as some would like to make
him the villain in this.


You know, I'm not saying they should be faulted. I'm simply saying there
should be a coroner's inquest. I also think marshals should be equipped
with tasers in addition to pistolas.

I wonder if a taser would be a good idea for use near an electrical
detonation device.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:10:16 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 18:31:54 -0800, wrote:

You couldn't begin to compare this situation with say, Kent State,
for
example.
I'm betting that by tomorrow, it will be a racial incident and that
the Reverend Jackson will be right in the middle of it.

Interesting though that it's the second Brazilian shot dead in the
past six months or so for refusing to respond to police commands.

Anyway, there were more witness reports of the guy talking about bomb
that the two who said they never heard it, so it probably was a good
shoot. Those guys have a tough job - I hope the Marshall can handle
it without falling apart.


The fellow who was shot was a US citizen, and I believe he was a
native
of Costa Rica.

Apparently, he's been here since 1986. More than enough time to
understand shouted requests to show his hands, put down the bag, etc.

Sure, unless you suffer from a serious mental illness.

As I stated, hopefully there will be a coroner's inquest.

If you were alone in the covered ramp with him and he refused to follow
your
instructions, what would YOU have done, Harry? The guy's got a backpack on
his chest, hands inside, and he's refusing to show his hands, etc. Please
describe YOUR strategy.

Harry is just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. He
knows the Marshal was right in what he did, but his local street cred
would suffer if he didn't take an opposing POV. :)

Doesn't make Harry a bad guy.

I know. But still....I really want to hear Harry's alternative plan of
action.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

I would have tasered the guy.

No you wouldn't. You really don't know what a taser might do to an electric
detonator.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:10:16 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 18:31:54 -0800, wrote:

You couldn't begin to compare this situation with say, Kent State,
for
example.
I'm betting that by tomorrow, it will be a racial incident and that
the Reverend Jackson will be right in the middle of it.

Interesting though that it's the second Brazilian shot dead in the
past six months or so for refusing to respond to police commands.

Anyway, there were more witness reports of the guy talking about
bomb
that the two who said they never heard it, so it probably was a
good
shoot. Those guys have a tough job - I hope the Marshall can
handle
it without falling apart.

The fellow who was shot was a US citizen, and I believe he was a
native
of Costa Rica.
Apparently, he's been here since 1986. More than enough time to
understand shouted requests to show his hands, put down the bag, etc.
Sure, unless you suffer from a serious mental illness.

As I stated, hopefully there will be a coroner's inquest.
If you were alone in the covered ramp with him and he refused to follow
your
instructions, what would YOU have done, Harry? The guy's got a backpack
on
his chest, hands inside, and he's refusing to show his hands, etc.
Please
describe YOUR strategy.
Harry is just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. He
knows the Marshal was right in what he did, but his local street cred
would suffer if he didn't take an opposing POV. :)

Doesn't make Harry a bad guy.

I know. But still....I really want to hear Harry's alternative plan of
action.
I would have tasered the guy.

No. The best shot for a taser is the chest. It's the biggest target, shirts
are often thinner than pants, and there's be no belt buckles etc. in the
way. The guy was supposedly wearing a backpack on his chest. No target. You
could aim for the face, but you'd have a very good chance of missing.

If you suggested a taser during your air marshal training, and wouldn't let
go of the idea, you'd probably be sent back to your previous job.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 06:32:35 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:24:01 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 18:31:54 -0800, wrote:

You couldn't begin to compare this situation with say, Kent State,
for
example.
I'm betting that by tomorrow, it will be a racial incident and that
the Reverend Jackson will be right in the middle of it.

Interesting though that it's the second Brazilian shot dead in the
past six months or so for refusing to respond to police commands.

Anyway, there were more witness reports of the guy talking about
bomb
that the two who said they never heard it, so it probably was a
good
shoot. Those guys have a tough job - I hope the Marshall can
handle
it without falling apart.
The fellow who was shot was a US citizen, and I believe he was a
native of Costa Rica.
Hmmm - report I saw said Brazil. Hey, critical incidents create a
lot
of fog and false impressions - the guys main mistake was not stopping
when he was told to.
Yeah, well, if he were suffering from a serious mental illness, he
might not have heard the commands or he might have thought they were
coming from spiders, or, well, who knows, eh?
Understood, but you can't make that kind of distinction in the middle
of a crisis situation. I'd bet it was horrible confused, the guy was
running, his wife was screaming - panic. The Marshal did the right
thing and can't be faulted for it as much as some would like to make
him the villain in this.

You know, I'm not saying they should be faulted. I'm simply saying there
should be a coroner's inquest. I also think marshals should be equipped
with tasers in addition to pistolas.

I wonder if a taser would be a good idea for use near an electrical
detonation device.

I wonder if a gun would be a good thing to use with a perp who has his
finger on a detonation trigger.

Although there's always the chance of one last twitch, a bullet in the
mouth/eye/throat (depending on angle) stops the action instantly. It hits
what snipers call the "plum".

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

You know, I'm not saying they should be faulted. I'm simply saying
there should be a coroner's inquest. I also think marshals should be
equipped with tasers in addition to pistolas.
I wonder if a taser would be a good idea for use near an electrical
detonation device.
I wonder if a gun would be a good thing to use with a perp who has his
finger on a detonation trigger.

Although there's always the chance of one last twitch, a bullet in the
mouth/eye/throat (depending on angle) stops the action instantly. It hits
what snipers call the "plum".


I wasn't aware the marshals had pumped their six shots into the guy's
mouth, eye, and throat. His head must have fallen clean off.

I didn't say that, and we don't know. What I *do* know for a fact is that
they're trained and expected to put the first shot in the head. This mandate
is completely different than that followed by a street cop. If you don't
understand why, think about it some more.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

I would have tasered the guy.

No you wouldn't. You really don't know what a taser might do to an
electric detonator.

What would a bullet to do a guy who has his thumb on the plunger of a
detonating device?

That's unknowable. However, ask a cop what two bullets in the chest do to a
person who's in an altered state of consciousness (drugs, etc). Often, it
still leaves him able to threaten or struggle for at least a few seconds.



Make him release it?

You're offering up a straw man argument.

In that case, why do you suppose air marshals and certain other types of
marksmen are trained (with great difficulty) to shoot first at the head? To
show off? Because they get more points or something?

You have said you own a handgun. Would it be correct to assume that you've
pondered the possibility that you might have to use it against an intruder
in your home? Not point it and then argue. I mean USE it. If your answer is
yes, then have you spent any time at all reading about HOW to use it in
those circumstances?

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


Make him release it?

You're offering up a straw man argument.

In that case, why do you suppose air marshals and certain other types of
marksmen are trained (with great difficulty) to shoot first at the head?
To show off? Because they get more points or something?

You have said you own a handgun. Would it be correct to assume that
you've pondered the possibility that you might have to use it against an
intruder in your home? Not point it and then argue. I mean USE it. If
your answer is yes, then have you spent any time at all reading about HOW
to use it in those circumstances?


My home defense firearm is a shotgun. I've pondered whether I might have
to use it. Under the right circumstances, I would. I know how to use it.
But home defense is not the same as what we are discussing.

Now you're using NOYB's tactics: Changing the subject to avoid answering
important questions. You wondered what a head shot would do insofar as a
person's ability to use his finger. I explained that this is precisely the
shot that certain kinds of marksmen are trained to make FIRST. This is a
different approach than used in a typical defense situation. What I've just
told you are facts. Why do you think air marshals are trained to shoot this
way?

Again:

Why do you think air marshals are trained to shoot this way?

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:08:49 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 18:31:54 -0800, wrote:

You couldn't begin to compare this situation with say, Kent State, for
example.
I'm betting that by tomorrow, it will be a racial incident and that
the Reverend Jackson will be right in the middle of it.

Interesting though that it's the second Brazilian shot dead in the
past six months or so for refusing to respond to police commands.

Anyway, there were more witness reports of the guy talking about bomb
that the two who said they never heard it, so it probably was a good
shoot. Those guys have a tough job - I hope the Marshall can handle
it without falling apart.


The fellow who was shot was a US citizen, and I believe he was a native of
Costa Rica.

Apparently, he's been here since 1986. More than enough time to understand
shouted requests to show his hands, put down the bag, etc.

Sure, unless you suffer from a serious mental illness.

As I stated, hopefully there will be a coroner's inquest.

I hope they start doing them for abortions also.

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
You know, I'm not saying they should be faulted. I'm simply saying
there should be a coroner's inquest. I also think marshals should be
equipped with tasers in addition to pistolas.
I wonder if a taser would be a good idea for use near an electrical
detonation device.
I wonder if a gun would be a good thing to use with a perp who has his
finger on a detonation trigger.
Although there's always the chance of one last twitch, a bullet in the
mouth/eye/throat (depending on angle) stops the action instantly. It
hits what snipers call the "plum".

I wasn't aware the marshals had pumped their six shots into the guy's
mouth, eye, and throat. His head must have fallen clean off.

I didn't say that, and we don't know. What I *do* know for a fact is that
they're trained and expected to put the first shot in the head. This
mandate is completely different than that followed by a street cop. If
you don't understand why, think about it some more.

Do they not graduate skycop school unless they can put a shot in someone's
head from 50' feet away while standing on a platform that is pitching,
rolling and yawing? Or, how far away are they to make a head shot?

I don't know the details. You can post that question in rec.guns and I'm
sure one of the LEOs will be able to help.


I can make a head shot (small pie plate) reliably with a handgun at, oh,
25 to 50 feet, but that's while standing on terra firma and shooting at a
stationary target on a range, and without distractions.

I can do it, too, if I'm using ammo that the gun likes and I take my time.
But you and I don't have to worry about where the bullet might go if the
target moves. And, we're not using $2000.00 guns which have been extensively
tweaked by highly experienced armorers at Springfield, SIG or whatever brand
these guys are using nowadays.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Make him release it?

You're offering up a straw man argument.
In that case, why do you suppose air marshals and certain other types
of marksmen are trained (with great difficulty) to shoot first at the
head? To show off? Because they get more points or something?

You have said you own a handgun. Would it be correct to assume that
you've pondered the possibility that you might have to use it against
an intruder in your home? Not point it and then argue. I mean USE it.
If your answer is yes, then have you spent any time at all reading
about HOW to use it in those circumstances?

My home defense firearm is a shotgun. I've pondered whether I might have
to use it. Under the right circumstances, I would. I know how to use it.
But home defense is not the same as what we are discussing.

Now you're using NOYB's tactics: Changing the subject to avoid answering
important questions. You wondered what a head shot would do insofar as a
person's ability to use his finger. I explained that this is precisely
the shot that certain kinds of marksmen are trained to make FIRST. This
is a different approach than used in a typical defense situation. What
I've just told you are facts. Why do you think air marshals are trained
to shoot this way?

Again:

Why do you think air marshals are trained to shoot this way?

You asked whether I had thought about using a gun on an intruder and how I
would use it. I answered both questions.

My question about the head shot was this, in more simpler terms. If a perp
has his finger on a spring trigger that releases when he releases his
finger, and you shoot him in the head, what happens to the trigger?
It was only a rhetorical question.

There were two questions in the message. One addressed YOUR use of a gun.
The other addressed the reason why certain marksmen train for the head shot,
while cops (and you & I should) train for the chest shot first. If you
answered my question, you would have answered yours, too. Is it safe to
assume at this point that you do not know the answer?

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

Harry,
Using your logic, any terrorist who wanted to have some extra time to be
able to set off a bomb, all they would have to do is to "act like they were
manic or psychotic".

I think it is funny that the person who wanted to carpet bomb Iraq into the
stone age, now is upset when the Sky Marshals use deadly force because
someone is saying he has a bomb, tries to escape the Marshals, refuses to
lie down and reaches into his luggage.

Don't you think carpet bombing Iraq might have been a tad bit of overkill,
and allowing someone who makes bomb threats to reach into his luggage
"underkill"?


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:24:01 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 18:31:54 -0800, wrote:

You couldn't begin to compare this situation with say, Kent State, for
example.
I'm betting that by tomorrow, it will be a racial incident and that
the Reverend Jackson will be right in the middle of it.

Interesting though that it's the second Brazilian shot dead in the
past six months or so for refusing to respond to police commands.

Anyway, there were more witness reports of the guy talking about bomb
that the two who said they never heard it, so it probably was a good
shoot. Those guys have a tough job - I hope the Marshall can handle
it without falling apart.
The fellow who was shot was a US citizen, and I believe he was a native
of Costa Rica.

Hmmm - report I saw said Brazil. Hey, critical incidents create a lot
of fog and false impressions - the guys main mistake was not stopping
when he was told to.


Yeah, well, if he were suffering from a serious mental illness, he might
not have heard the commands or he might have thought they were coming from
spiders, or, well, who knows, eh?




--
Energy independence: caribou witness relocation program.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...

Harry is just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. He
knows the Marshal was right in what he did, but his local street cred
would suffer if he didn't take an opposing POV. :)

Tom,
Are you saying Harry just takes the opposing viewpoint to be difficult, that
he really doesn't believe what he says? You might be right, I have seen
Harry take strong stands on issues that are 180 degrees different than the
stand he took 30 days previous. That is the reason why he doesn't allow his
posts to be archived.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

JimH,
How many sane suicide bombers are there?


" *JimH*" wrote in message
. ..

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 18:31:54 -0800, wrote:

You couldn't begin to compare this situation with say, Kent State,
for
example.
I'm betting that by tomorrow, it will be a racial incident and that
the Reverend Jackson will be right in the middle of it.

Interesting though that it's the second Brazilian shot dead in the
past six months or so for refusing to respond to police commands.

Anyway, there were more witness reports of the guy talking about bomb
that the two who said they never heard it, so it probably was a good
shoot. Those guys have a tough job - I hope the Marshall can handle
it without falling apart.


The fellow who was shot was a US citizen, and I believe he was a native
of Costa Rica.

Apparently, he's been here since 1986. More than enough time to
understand shouted requests to show his hands, put down the bag, etc.

Sure, unless you suffer from a serious mental illness.

As I stated, hopefully there will be a coroner's inquest.


So let me get this straight Harry. If one suffers from a mental illness,
claims to have a bomb, runs towards a building full of people, is ordered
to stop but does not...............that person should not be shot.

And how many sane and stable people would claim to have a bomb, run
towards a building full of people and then keep running when ordered to
stop by police?

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

Doug,
Harry actually posted pictures of his "expertise" with a handgun, stating he
would use the handgun on anyone who came on his property uninvited. I would
have posted the archived post, but that is why Harry does not allow his
posts to be archived.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


Make him release it?

You're offering up a straw man argument.

In that case, why do you suppose air marshals and certain other types of
marksmen are trained (with great difficulty) to shoot first at the head?
To show off? Because they get more points or something?

You have said you own a handgun. Would it be correct to assume that
you've pondered the possibility that you might have to use it against an
intruder in your home? Not point it and then argue. I mean USE it. If
your answer is yes, then have you spent any time at all reading about
HOW to use it in those circumstances?


My home defense firearm is a shotgun. I've pondered whether I might have
to use it. Under the right circumstances, I would. I know how to use it.
But home defense is not the same as what we are discussing.

Now you're using NOYB's tactics: Changing the subject to avoid answering
important questions. You wondered what a head shot would do insofar as a
person's ability to use his finger. I explained that this is precisely the
shot that certain kinds of marksmen are trained to make FIRST. This is a
different approach than used in a typical defense situation. What I've
just told you are facts. Why do you think air marshals are trained to
shoot this way?

Again:

Why do you think air marshals are trained to shoot this way?

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

Tom,
I have to tell you I have never seen anyone who likes to look on the
positive side as much as you do. You must be an extremely nice person to
have as a friend or neighbor.




"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 11:52:56 -0500, "Lord Reginald Smithers" Ask me
about my driveway leading up to my manor. wrote:


"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..

Harry is just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. He
knows the Marshal was right in what he did, but his local street cred
would suffer if he didn't take an opposing POV. :)

Tom,
Are you saying Harry just takes the opposing viewpoint to be difficult,
that
he really doesn't believe what he says? You might be right, I have seen
Harry take strong stands on issues that are 180 degrees different than the
stand he took 30 days previous. That is the reason why he doesn't allow
his
posts to be archived.

Not at all. I think that Harry knows full well the complexities of
this situation, and is very aware that the Marshal was right to do
what he did. He is just taking this stand because to do otherwise
would put him in an awkward position with respect to his normal
attitudes with things like this, thus his local street cred would be
hurt if he didn't.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

Tom,
I have to tell you I have never seen anyone who likes to look on the
positive side as much as you do. You must be an extremely nice person to
have as a friend or neighbor.




"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 11:52:56 -0500, "Lord Reginald Smithers" Ask me
about my driveway leading up to my manor. wrote:


"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..

Harry is just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. He
knows the Marshal was right in what he did, but his local street cred
would suffer if he didn't take an opposing POV. :)

Tom,
Are you saying Harry just takes the opposing viewpoint to be difficult,
that
he really doesn't believe what he says? You might be right, I have seen
Harry take strong stands on issues that are 180 degrees different than the
stand he took 30 days previous. That is the reason why he doesn't allow
his
posts to be archived.

Not at all. I think that Harry knows full well the complexities of
this situation, and is very aware that the Marshal was right to do
what he did. He is just taking this stand because to do otherwise
would put him in an awkward position with respect to his normal
attitudes with things like this, thus his local street cred would be
hurt if he didn't.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

JimC,

If you noticed in this post Harry acknowledged his real objective for
starting this thread.

"But we have plenty of instances recently in which the
police were less than forthcoming, and since this is the Bush
Administration, there is almost nothing coming out of it that I believe."

Harry was hoping an inquest would provide the democrats with more ammo for
the next election.



"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 11:52:56 -0500, "Lord Reginald Smithers" Ask me
about my driveway leading up to my manor. wrote:

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
Harry is just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. He
knows the Marshal was right in what he did, but his local street cred
would suffer if he didn't take an opposing POV. :)
Tom,
Are you saying Harry just takes the opposing viewpoint to be difficult,
that he really doesn't believe what he says? You might be right, I
have seen Harry take strong stands on issues that are 180 degrees
different than the stand he took 30 days previous. That is the reason
why he doesn't allow his posts to be archived.

Not at all. I think that Harry knows full well the complexities of
this situation, and is very aware that the Marshal was right to do
what he did. He is just taking this stand because to do otherwise
would put him in an awkward position with respect to his normal
attitudes with things like this, thus his local street cred would be
hurt if he didn't.


Because of the complexities of "the situation," I've suggested a coroner's
inquest would be appropriate. Most of the remainder of the noise comes
from retardos who thought I said something else.

I don't know what happened on that jetway. Neither does anyone else here.

I do tend NOT to believe "police" in these sorts of circumstances,
because, well, they tend to lie. This is not to say the skycops were right
or wrong. But we have plenty of instances recently in which the police
were less than forthcoming, and since this is the Bush Administration,
there is almost nothing coming out of it that I believe.

So I want a real inquiry.

--
No Child Left Behind: There are always jobs in the military.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

I would have tasered the guy.

No you wouldn't. You really don't know what a taser might do to an
electric detonator.


And Taser
s do not always put down the target.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

I do tend NOT to believe "police" in these sorts of circumstances,
because, well, they tend to lie...So I want a real inquiry.

The call for a special prosecuter...the Dems way. Why not go for and
establish a full blown Federal Bureau of Transportation Security
Administration Abuse, the FBTSAA?

--
Skipper

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:37:01 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Make him release it?

You're offering up a straw man argument.
In that case, why do you suppose air marshals and certain other types of
marksmen are trained (with great difficulty) to shoot first at the head?
To show off? Because they get more points or something?

You have said you own a handgun. Would it be correct to assume that
you've pondered the possibility that you might have to use it against an
intruder in your home? Not point it and then argue. I mean USE it. If
your answer is yes, then have you spent any time at all reading about HOW
to use it in those circumstances?

My home defense firearm is a shotgun. I've pondered whether I might have
to use it. Under the right circumstances, I would. I know how to use it.
But home defense is not the same as what we are discussing.

Now you're using NOYB's tactics: Changing the subject to avoid answering
important questions. You wondered what a head shot would do insofar as a
person's ability to use his finger. I explained that this is precisely the
shot that certain kinds of marksmen are trained to make FIRST. This is a
different approach than used in a typical defense situation. What I've just
told you are facts. Why do you think air marshals are trained to shoot this
way?

Again:

Why do you think air marshals are trained to shoot this way?



You asked whether I had thought about using a gun on an intruder and how
I would use it. I answered both questions.

My question about the head shot was this, in more simpler terms. If a
perp has his finger on a spring trigger that releases when he releases
his finger, and you shoot him in the head, what happens to the trigger?
It was only a rhetorical question.

If the perp had had a pressure-release device in the pack, he would not have had his arms out to
begin with.

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:03:15 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

John H. wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:08:49 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 18:31:54 -0800, wrote:

You couldn't begin to compare this situation with say, Kent State, for
example.
I'm betting that by tomorrow, it will be a racial incident and that
the Reverend Jackson will be right in the middle of it.

Interesting though that it's the second Brazilian shot dead in the
past six months or so for refusing to respond to police commands.

Anyway, there were more witness reports of the guy talking about bomb
that the two who said they never heard it, so it probably was a good
shoot. Those guys have a tough job - I hope the Marshall can handle
it without falling apart.

The fellow who was shot was a US citizen, and I believe he was a native of
Costa Rica.
Apparently, he's been here since 1986. More than enough time to understand
shouted requests to show his hands, put down the bag, etc.
Sure, unless you suffer from a serious mental illness.

As I stated, hopefully there will be a coroner's inquest.

I hope they start doing them for abortions also.

Why? Do you need medical attention?

Tell us about the solemn high mass you bragged about earlier. Is it an 'off limits' subject now that
you've opened your mouth?

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


Last time, slippery man. All previous text removed to make this simple.

1) This is not a question: You asked about the effect shooting someone in
the head might have on the victim's finger, which might be ready to push a
button and detonate a bomb.

2) This is not a question: I explained that while it might produce a
twitch as the brain was disconnected from the spinal cord.

3) This *is* a question: If head shots are such a bad idea, why do YOU
suppose that air marshals are trained and expected to make that shot first,
as compared to municipal uniformed cops who are generally taught to go for
the torso?

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Lord Reginald Smithers" Ask me about my driveway leading up to my manor.
wrote in message ...
Doug,
Harry actually posted pictures of his "expertise" with a handgun, stating
he
would use the handgun on anyone who came on his property uninvited. I
would
have posted the archived post, but that is why Harry does not allow his
posts to be archived.

I saw it, but it's not relevant to what I'm discussing with him.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

Rewritten #2, interrupted and mangled by a phonecall mid-stream:

2) This is not a question: I explained that while it might produce a
twitch as the brain was disconnected from the spinal cord, all other
shooting options were ineffective and unacceptable.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 17:42:44 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:

On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 11:52:56 -0500, "Lord Reginald Smithers" Ask me
about my driveway leading up to my manor. wrote:


"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..

Harry is just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. He
knows the Marshal was right in what he did, but his local street cred
would suffer if he didn't take an opposing POV. :)

Tom,
Are you saying Harry just takes the opposing viewpoint to be difficult, that
he really doesn't believe what he says? You might be right, I have seen
Harry take strong stands on issues that are 180 degrees different than the
stand he took 30 days previous. That is the reason why he doesn't allow his
posts to be archived.

Not at all. I think that Harry knows full well the complexities of
this situation, and is very aware that the Marshal was right to do
what he did. He is just taking this stand because to do otherwise
would put him in an awkward position with respect to his normal
attitudes with things like this, thus his local street cred would be
hurt if he didn't.

You are most charitable!

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


You have said you own a handgun. Would it be correct to assume that you've
pondered the possibility that you might have to use it against an intruder
in your home? Not point it and then argue. I mean USE it. If your answer
is yes, then have you spent any time at all reading about HOW to use it in
those circumstances?

I'd nuke them. ;-)

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:21:55 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

John H. wrote:


Tell us about the solemn high mass you bragged about earlier. Is it an 'off limits' subject now that
you've opened your mouth?

--
John H


What is there about a Christmas evening mass you don't understand?


MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Same to you.


Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day

Who is this "we" to whom you keep referring?

What I don't understand is why you would attend a service of a 'stinking' (in your words) religion?
Are you going by yourself to do some research so you can come back and make attacks on the Catholic
Church? Or, are you going with some friends who may have invited you to a celebration mass? If the
latter, I hope you're honest enough to tell them what you *really* think!

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

JohnH,

I am not Catholic, but I thought Christmas Mass was like a Jewish Temple for
the High Holidays. You had so many people showing up that they had trouble
sitting all of the people who wanted to attend. Many temples will provide
tickets to the active members of the temple. Do they ever limit attendance
to at the Church to active Catholics? Or do they allow the dregs of society
in?

I am just wondering how Harry is allowed to attend Christmas Mass. A non
Catholic, who is not even a Christian. Does this mean an active, devote
Catholic will have to stand up in the back of Church so Harry can attend
Mass?


"John H." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:21:55 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

John H. wrote:


Tell us about the solemn high mass you bragged about earlier. Is it an
'off limits' subject now that
you've opened your mouth?

--
John H


What is there about a Christmas evening mass you don't understand?


MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Same to you.


Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth
of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day

Who is this "we" to whom you keep referring?

What I don't understand is why you would attend a service of a 'stinking'
(in your words) religion?
Are you going by yourself to do some research so you can come back and
make attacks on the Catholic
Church? Or, are you going with some friends who may have invited you to a
celebration mass? If the
latter, I hope you're honest enough to tell them what you *really* think!

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of
OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

JohnH,

I am not Catholic, but I thought Christmas Mass was like a Jewish Temple for
the High Holidays. You had so many people showing up that they had trouble
sitting all of the people who wanted to attend. Many temples will provide
tickets to the active members of the temple. Do they ever limit attendance
to at the Church to active Catholics? Or do they allow the dregs of society
in?

I am just wondering how Harry is allowed to attend Christmas Mass. A non
Catholic, who is not even a Christian. Does this mean an active, devote
Catholic will have to stand up in the back of Church so Harry can attend
Mass?


"John H." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:21:55 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

John H. wrote:


Tell us about the solemn high mass you bragged about earlier. Is it an
'off limits' subject now that
you've opened your mouth?

--
John H


What is there about a Christmas evening mass you don't understand?


MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Same to you.


Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth
of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day

Who is this "we" to whom you keep referring?

What I don't understand is why you would attend a service of a 'stinking'
(in your words) religion?
Are you going by yourself to do some research so you can come back and
make attacks on the Catholic
Church? Or, are you going with some friends who may have invited you to a
celebration mass? If the
latter, I hope you're honest enough to tell them what you *really* think!

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of
OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 21:18:39 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

John H. wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:21:55 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

John H. wrote:

Tell us about the solemn high mass you bragged about earlier. Is it an 'off limits' subject now that
you've opened your mouth?

--
John H

What is there about a Christmas evening mass you don't understand?

MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Same to you.

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day
Who is this "we" to whom you keep referring?

What I don't understand is why you would attend a service of a 'stinking' (in your words) religion?

Your words, not mine. I've never used that phrase to refer to the
Catholic church.


\
George W. Bush: American Nero.

Bull****! You said, "...your stinking religion..." I am Catholic, and have probably said so in the
group, or at least implied same. In any case, you've undoubtedly got the information in your
'rec.boats data base'.

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"Lord Reginald Smithers" Ask me about my driveway leading up to my manor.
wrote in message . ..
JohnH,

I am not Catholic, but I thought Christmas Mass was like a Jewish Temple
for the High Holidays. You had so many people showing up that they had
trouble sitting all of the people who wanted to attend. Many temples will
provide tickets to the active members of the temple. Do they ever limit
attendance to at the Church to active Catholics? Or do they allow the
dregs of society in?

Christmas and Easter Masses have the highest attendance with Easter being
the higher of the two. You need to get there at least 30 minutes before the
start and 45 minutes to an hour early is best. It is a first come gets the
best seat.

I have heard that the Jewish Temples will reserve, for a fee, a seat for
those that regularly attend services and for those the have a very fat check
book, this is according to my next door neighbor who is Jewish.

I am just wondering how Harry is allowed to attend Christmas Mass. A non
Catholic, who is not even a Christian. Does this mean an active, devote
Catholic will have to stand up in the back of Church so Harry can attend
Mass?

Everyone is welcome, even Harry. The Catholic are in the business of saving
souls and contrary to popular belief Harry has a soul and it is worth trying
to save. There will be many people standing in the back due to them just
being habitually late so Harry shouldn't feel guilty about taking some poor
old grandmother's seat away from her.


"John H." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:21:55 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

John H. wrote:


Tell us about the solemn high mass you bragged about earlier. Is it an
'off limits' subject now that
you've opened your mouth?

--
John H


What is there about a Christmas evening mass you don't understand?


MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Same to you.


Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth
of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day

Who is this "we" to whom you keep referring?

What I don't understand is why you would attend a service of a 'stinking'
(in your words) religion?
Are you going by yourself to do some research so you can come back and
make attacks on the Catholic
Church? Or, are you going with some friends who may have invited you to a
celebration mass? If the
latter, I hope you're honest enough to tell them what you *really* think!

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth
of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

"John H." wrote in message
...

Bull****! You said, "...your stinking religion..." I am Catholic, and have
probably said so in the
group, or at least implied same. In any case, you've undoubtedly got the
information in your
'rec.boats data base'.

I find Catholicism amazing, if only for the way it takes what could be a
half hour wedding ceremony and turns it into something else entirely. At the
last one, my wife and I heard "with Jesus", "in Jesus", "for Jesus", etc. so
many times that we really wondered exactly who was getting married - the
bride & groom, or one of them to Jesus, in absentia. And, we got some
terrific leg exercise. Stand up, sit down, stand up, sit down, stand up, sit
down....at least 1000 times.

The reception was held in the large meeting room of a local gun club, which
made for some interesting humor.

Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"
 

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 08:41:53 -0500, "Lord Reginald Smithers" Ask me about my driveway leading up to
my manor. wrote:

JohnH,

I am not Catholic, but I thought Christmas Mass was like a Jewish Temple for
the High Holidays. You had so many people showing up that they had trouble
sitting all of the people who wanted to attend. Many temples will provide
tickets to the active members of the temple. Do they ever limit attendance
to at the Church to active Catholics? Or do they allow the dregs of society
in?

I am just wondering how Harry is allowed to attend Christmas Mass. A non
Catholic, who is not even a Christian. Does this mean an active, devote
Catholic will have to stand up in the back of Church so Harry can attend
Mass?


Most Catholic churches have a 'midnight mass' which is, as you say, packed. There are also masses on
Christmas day, but the midnight mass seems to be the most popular. I've never heard of tickets being
used, or any other attempt to limit attendance. The dregs are allowed.

If Harry is attending such a mass, then he surely has a motive. My guess is that he was invited to
attend by someone to whom he feels a need to 'suck up'. Or, he just wants to be able to disparage
the mass next time he's in the group. Or both.

--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you Peace, Fellowship, and Good Humor as we celebrate the birth of OUR Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.