It goes to the ideas that: there's a lot more to pwc's and pwcer's than
just "noise and pollution"; and pwc'ers are boaters for sure, and that
certainly many of them (none of us knows the real percentage) are
responsible, considerate, fellow boaters of yours and should not be
summarily dismissed or insulted, or held some longstanding grudge
against, or banned from your waterways, as a group based on the size
and shape of our boats or the bad behavior of the worst of our member
(any more than should any other segment of boats or boaters).

I don't need to get a grip, you need to get a clue.

richforman

Bill McKee wrote:
....


Answer my questions if you can. And refer to the Colregs as to why that
sailboater with the engine running is a sailboat.

Rule 3 (c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail
provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

It says "being used" not "running." Big difference. And its
specifically mentions "propelling machinery" implying the engine must
be used for propelling. Would you claim that an engine being used for
ballast makes it a powerboat?

Further, if you're on another boat and see an exhaust from a sailboat
that otherwise appears to be sailing, are you free to treat it as a
powerboat? Of course not, that might simply be a genset.

Sorry Bill, its pretty clear you don't really understand the rules.

Tony wrote:
Hi Terry
I guess from your post that you dont like power boaters :-)

Power boaters are like car drivers who crash into buses when they stop at
bus stops and then complain that the bus should not have stopped!
Sailboats are always unpredictable by their nature so I can never understand
why so many powerboaters have to overtake sooo close even when there is
plenty of searoom

Tony uk


That is at the crux, but it does not apply to all power boaters,
only to the sourest creamy scum at the height of arrogance,
ignorance and hubris.

Most boaters come to realize that railing at loggerheads or swimmers
will never do them any good, and their best defence against
collision with rocks or slow boats in the grips of the wind and
tides is to give them sea room. Those who complain about rocks that
bash in the fronts of their boats are only denying the truth.

These types are the ones who speed through narrow channels and
complain because they really believe that sailors are doing what
they cannot understand to be necessary, but are doing it only to
inconvenience them. Nor do they want to learn why, or how,
unfortunately, because they would improve their own chances if they
did learn and appreciate the powers that the sea and wind exercise
over those dedicated to exploring and enjoying nature's natural
force, akin to skiers versus snowmobilers.

A sailboat is at the whim of the winds, like grass on a golf course.
It is not the fault of the grass that the golf ball be deflected
by the hazards of the course, if the golfer choose his shot, then
execute it poorly, coming too close to the rough.

Better he should continue to golf, and improve his game, but he
never will so long as he blames his tools, or the course.

I love all those who share my love of the water and messing about in
boats. I would help, even if by what seems criticism, those who
would listen: the wind makes sailboats do unexpected things. Smart
boaters know this. Fools complain they were disrespected when it is
they who disrespect nature, physics, and other's needs and rights.
The Colregs recognize reality, and sailors who decide to raise their
sails, even though they would waste no time doing it, are easily
overtaken by myopic rocket drivers who cannot conceive it is their
choice to crowd rocks, swimmers and other hazards like sailors
battling to raise or lower sails even with an assist from an engine
which is totally inadequate to control all aspects of such operations.

Some boaters use any excuse to claim rights, even when their
arguments are specious: flagging a sail gives them no more rights
over power, than they deserve as power drivers themselves, but smart
boater know that dragging a sail through the action of setting it in
a wind strong enough to make sailing profitable impedes their
ability and scope of control over their navigation ability, not to
mention winch knots, flying fish, and lines snarled on necks,
spectacles or tiller handles. Sailors are often a busy lot, easy to
sneak up on, if abusing one as a suicide assistant is what you want.

Understanding and courtesy are boundaries of contractual
civilization. Those unfit to abide or survive deserve to perish,
and though we might complain that nature is cruel, it is man's
stupidity that causes problems to be handled incompetently.

Neither sailors nor power boaters may avoid nature, and all must
grant to others those rights and that respect that they desire for
themselves before there is hope that they may be granted what they
desire for themselves. All must make allowances for slips and yips
and snags, and the fact that a small problem can become a large one
if the spectators press too close, and their fellow golfer loses his
grip.

In short, sailors sail or perish, some power boaters don't care
about anything except speed and power, and damn the rest. These
eventually reap what they sow. Then, they complain and try to hide
the obvious behind a technical argument.

The best solution would be for those not understanding to take a
cruise on a sailboat during a bluster. Their respect might improve,
provided they did not soil themselves. Their perspective might
improve, nonetheless.

Terry K

"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
...

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

In article et,
Bill McKee bmckee=at-ix.netcom.com wrote:


"DSK" wrote in message
et...


Bill McKee wrote:


Probably like a lot if sailors, you turn when ever you want, and then
yell at a power boat for impeding you.

Probably like a lot of motorboaters, you have no clue what's involved in
sailing, and think that all boats can be driven like a car.

DSK


I know what is involved with sailing. Married a good sailors daughter
and used to windsurf. But too many "sailors" figure they have the right
of way as they have a sailboat. I have had "sailors" do a 90 degree in
front of me when lifting the sails and the iron sail is still running,
and then yell at me. They would yell even louder if I collided with them
and when they had to pay enormous sums of money to me.


What's your point? If you know the Rules of the Road, there's never
much doubt about who should give way.


Surely not the overtaking vessel? Must a vessel desiring to turn from
main channel to side route stand on past a harbour entrance because a
zoomer wants to pass between them and their port?

Could we invent turn signals for slow boats, to give those with power,
speed and a lack of courteous patience a more easily notable legal signal
of intentions to turn, given that noisy power vessels make horn signals
adequate for listening and watching sailors inaudible aboard kilowatt
stereo disco boats? Or would such unauthorized lighting distract starlet
eyed go boaters from their fore deck ornaments?

Do these power mongers not understand the need of sailors to turn into the
wind to hoist their main sails?

Nor is there much doubt as to how hard it is to hit a planing power boat
with a sail boat, and vice versa.

Honest savvy power boaters well know the paranoid schizophrenia they have
forced on sailors and the bad reputation their wild mannered birds of
similar feathering have cultivated for them, well know the secret rabid
detestation that fires every sailor's killing passions and undeniable mad
obsession with reach ramming power boats who so foolishly come so close as
to make possible such sweet, aching temptation to chisel yet another notch
in their stems, and well know to stay away, as they should from a starved
tiger on a short chain.

Those who actually get rammed by sailboats have no one to blame but
themselves, (even the law of the sea agrees,) unless their canny X's have
topped the limit on their gas cards, and the grinning fates deliver them
to their well deserved, slow motion fates. Gradual horror overtake them,
woe by tides and drift the planing challenged fume less speed boater who
dallies wake less long enough for the long plotting sailors' pack to
organize, isolate, surround and subsume their deserving victims, should
Poseidon aid them and grant conspiring seas, wind and grant calls for
rights to starboard tack.

Like a wounded fawn in the teeth of crippled octogenarian wolves, surely
their vessels shall be dismembered and dispersed without trace, like
diseased baby seals in the toothless jaws of tired and gallopless killer
whales.

Aarrgghh! The longer takes the victory, the sweeter the vine of triumph,
the sweeter the smoke of the roasting. May they all overheat;^)

Terry K

In article et,
Bill McKee bmckee=at-ix.netcom.com wrote:

You are always wrong.

If I agree, does that still work?




--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

In article et,
Bill McKee bmckee=at-ix.netcom.com wrote:
Such anger. Maybe if you had a real sailboat, you would understand the
Colregs. Oh, thats right you are boatless.

Ok. I'm done with you. It's pretty clear that you're a jerk. You
claimed that you represent the best and brightest of jet-skiers, and
if that's the case, there's really not much else I can say.

Have a great life, and if by chance you get near me with your piece of
crap jet-ski, you damn well better be doing everything by the book.




--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

In article ,
Brian Whatcott wrote:
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 06:34:43 GMT, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
In article et,
Bill McKee bmckee=at-ix.netcom.com wrote:

And your "Rules of the Road" have legal validity. ////
Bill, the Rules are *in* the colregs. Duhhh... sheesh.

"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com



I see why you are a "Duhhh".


Hmmm...I am not thrilled by this thread. Reminds me of the obsessive
compulsive style sometimes attributed to too early or strict toilet
training. I even heard that too much participation in this kind of
thing, leads to the desire to sit the LSAT - then, before you know
what hit you, you are in a two year evening class law school, and you
have a JD after your names, counsellors.

You have been warned.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Now that's funny!


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

In article ,
Dr. Dr. Smithers Ask Me about my Phd @ Diploma Mill .com wrote:
Bill,

If there was an accident and you were doing 25 mph within 15 ft. of another
boat, in a narrow channel, even if the other boat changed direction on a
whim, you would most likely be found partially responsibility for the
accident.
Happens all the time in narrow channels. And if they are all going in the
same direction, there is no problem. It is when an idiot like you decides
that the world revolves around you and can change direction on a whim.
You do this on the freeway also? How about in the 25 mph zone. You
change lanes on a whim? On your bicycle you change lanes on a whim?

More than partially. Significantly. You see, he doesn't give a crap
about the effect his 40-foot boat has on anyone else. Wake be damned.

This is the sort of person who institutionalizes giving powerboaters a
bad name.
--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Bill McKee wrote:
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...

In article t,
Bill McKee bmckee=at-ix.netcom.com wrote:

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...

In article . net,
Bill McKee bmckee=at-ix.netcom.com wrote:

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...

Yeah, so? What's your point? I know the regs and clearly you can quote
them. What are you trying to tell us here?

That you are an idiot.

Ah, a name caller. Well, ok then. You sure won that argument on the
merits.


No, just stating the obvious.

Yes, it's quite obvious what you are and why you're doing
it... PWCER!!!!

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Such anger. And my PWC has 350 CID and 330 hp. Big PWC.

Oh Billy,

What you have is still a little toy boat with the same engine my mother
had in her station wagon.

If it is a powered vessel less that 10kdwt or not over 4khp I won't even
list it my log as sea time.

You really should go take a safe boating course somewhere - anywhere.
In the mean time, if you really want to learn - go to

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/navrules.htm

and buy or download a real copy of COMDTINST M16672.2
(by-the-by nothing you have said is supported between the covers.)

A man of much experience once said to me "The only thing required to run
one of those little motorboats is a credit rating."

Matt Colie
Lifelong Waterman and Licensed Mariner (Chf Stm & Mtr, Pilot 10k Grt
Lks, Mst VUS Offshore 100t)

"Bill McKee" wrote


I know what is involved with sailing. Married a good sailors
daughter and
used to windsurf. But too many "sailors" figure they have the
right of way
as they have a sailboat. I have had "sailors" do a 90 degree
in front of me
when lifting the sails and the iron sail is still running, and
then yell at
me. They would yell even louder if I collided with them and
when they had
to pay enormous sums of money to me.


Is it really *that* hard to turn a steering wheel, Bill? Do you
have wimpy limp wrists?

SBV

That's not his address and phone number, it's mine.
Capt' Joe is an asshole.
And has been reported.


SBV


"Dr. Dr. Smithers" Ask Me about my Phd @ Diploma Mill .com
wrote in message news
Capt Joe,
All security experts strongly recommend you do not include
your address and
phone number in your UseNet Posts.


"Captain Joe Redcloud" wrote in message
...
On 2 Nov 2005 16:47:08 -0800, lid (Jonathan
Ganz) wrote:

In article
. net,
Bill McKee bmckee=at-ix.netcom.com wrote:

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Yeah, so? What's your point? I know the regs and clearly
you can quote
them. What are you trying to tell us here?

That you are an idiot.

Ah, a name caller. Well, ok then. You sure won that argument
on the
merits.

Yes, you can be sure that Jon Gayanzy has NEVER resorted to
name calling
when it
suited his own purposes.


Captain Joe Redcloud
1882 Chestnut Hill Road
Mohnton PA
(610) 856-7118