Roger Houston wrote:

I persuaded my friend to buy a used Dagger Animas as a first boat. I had
read reviews that it was a great first boat. The guy at the counter of the
store whose owner put it in stock for sale said that it was not for
whitewater, and not for sea kayaking, but great for everything in between.

The guy at the store doesn't quite know what he's talking about. The
Dagger Piedra is the Animas scaled down for smaller people; everything
I shall say about the Piedra with my 150# & 120# friends applies to the
Animas with a heavier paddler. My friends Jon and Karen love the
Piedra for (up to) Class IV/V whitewater in both the Rockies and the
Appalachians. The Piedras were not their first boats, nor are they
their only whitewater boats (they have Micro-235s for steep creekin')
but if they had to keep just one boat each I believe they would keep
the Piedras because the Piedras are so stable and predictable in
turbulent whitewater yet versatile enough for all but the gnarliest
creeks -- which is why the reviews called the Animas a good first boat.
[Don't don't seize upon the weight/size issue; at yer friend's level
of boating it is NOT an issue; at her experience level, on flat moving
water, the Animas and the Piedra might as well be interchangable.]

We took it out today where a river feeds into a lake, still a bit of
current, and some wind. The boat just spins on its center of rotation and
is very difficult to control as to direction of travel. She'd be paddling
(an experienced canoeist new to kayaks), and it would yaw right and left,
and when she finally got going it would suddenly switch ends, doing an
uncommanded 180 degree turn. It caused her no end of frustration, and in
the end, I had to tow her back to where we put in. The boat at the end of a
toe line was as undisciplined as had been the case when paddled freely,
yawing and yanking at the tow line.

Though the salesman was not right about the Animas being unsuitable for
whitewater, and though he should have broadened the "sea-kayaking"
category to "touring" (to include lake and flat-river paddling) He was
right about it being a good boat for swif****er paddling, and if he is
a young hot-dog whitewater boater he probably included everything up to
Class III whitewater in the "in between" category.

If she is experienced in tripping canoes, the Animas would
understandably have been a problem for her. If she had been
experienced in whitewater canoes she should have had no trouble (I have
to consciously keep my whitewater canoe on track when I'm on flat
stretches, and my canoe will spin out just like her kayak if I stop
paddling and don't keep the blade in the water for control). Jon &
Karen have no trouble paddling their Piedras across the lakes we
encounter at the bottoms of some whitewater runs, because J&K have
cleared the learning curve.

I must say I am disappointed, and the beginner is discouraged. I've got to
find her another used boat.

Absolutely, if she is looking for a fla****er touring boat. Absolutely
not if she wants to become a whitewater boater; if she wants to become
a whitewater boater she needs to learn how to make it go straight when
she needs to go straight, and how to take advantage of its high
maneuverability when she needs to maneuver in variable currents. But
you would know all this if you were a whitewater boater, and I am
guessing she wants to learn the kind of boating you do, so you are
probably right: you probably need to find her another boat. A Dagger
Blackwater, perhaps: 10.5' long (if I remember correctly) with a slight
keel or skeg to help it track.

For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed at
all, vs being put together to look cool?

Please don't insult the boat because you received less than perfect
advice from the salesman. The Animas and the Piedra were never cool;
they were always workhorse kayaks for the less-extreme whitewater
boater, but Jon & Karen lovvvvvvvve the predictable performance of the
Animas' little-brother boat.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. Winston-Salem, NC, USA
.. . . Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll . . ..
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net . . . . . . . . . .. cell: (301) 775-0471
.. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters ..
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu . . . . . . . . . . . office: (336) 713-5077
================================================== ====================

"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message
oups.com...

For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed at
all, vs being put together to look cool?

Please don't insult the boat because you received less than perfect
advice from the salesman.

Yeah, that was harsh. I guess the motive power for the boat is in the
current, and the paddle inputs are for directional control. At any rate,
both the salesman and on online review I consulted prior to making the
recommendation were seriously in error.

I am more optimistic now that we can get her money or most of it out of the
Animas by selling it to someone for whom it is better suited, or trading it
in on a boat more suitable to fla****er touring which I guess is the other
name for paddling up and down the river and through its impoundments
watching the trees change colors.

Thanks.

Why don't you check out www.dagger.com and www.wildernesssystems.com to name
just two and research their touring and recreational boats. That should
help you with your choices.

Courtney

"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...

"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message
oups.com...

For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed
at
all, vs being put together to look cool?

Please don't insult the boat because you received less than perfect
advice from the salesman.

Yeah, that was harsh. I guess the motive power for the boat is in the
current, and the paddle inputs are for directional control. At any rate,
both the salesman and on online review I consulted prior to making the
recommendation were seriously in error.

I am more optimistic now that we can get her money or most of it out of
the
Animas by selling it to someone for whom it is better suited, or trading
it
in on a boat more suitable to fla****er touring which I guess is the other
name for paddling up and down the river and through its impoundments
watching the trees change colors.

Thanks.

"Courtney" wrote in message
ink.net...
Why don't you check out www.dagger.com and www.wildernesssystems.com to
name
just two and research their touring and recreational boats. That should
help you with your choices.

As I mentioned in another post, I won't check out Dagger's site as a source
of primary information. Not knowing anything else about the boat, what is
written on their site at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257
would lead one to believe that the boat tracks and is predictable for
beginners, neither of which proved to be the case with the boat in question.

I think I'll ask on here; the ng seems to have been a source of pretty
reliable information in other respects.

Roger Houston wrote:
"Courtney" wrote in message
ink.net...

Why don't you check out www.dagger.com and www.wildernesssystems.com to
name
just two and research their touring and recreational boats. That should
help you with your choices.

As I mentioned in another post, I won't check out Dagger's site as a source
of primary information. Not knowing anything else about the boat, what is
written on their site at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257
would lead one to believe that the boat tracks and is predictable for
beginners, neither of which proved to be the case with the boat in question.

I think I'll ask on here; the ng seems to have been a source of pretty
reliable information in other respects.

The fact that Dagger's site lists it among the whitewater kayaks didn't
suggest anything to you? As whitewater boats go, it's stable and
predictable. NO WW boat tracks well on fla****er, they are designed to
turn, not track.

I can understand that you and your friend are upset, but it's the
salesman's fault for misleading you, not Dagger's

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...

The fact that Dagger's site lists it among the whitewater kayaks didn't
suggest anything to you?

In retrospect only. I navigated directly from Google to the product page at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257.
That little tab at the top that says "Whitewater" is orange on red, a
minimally visible combination, and I saw it after the fact. Not an excuse,
but a reason.

I can understand that you and your friend are upset, but it's the
salesman's fault for misleading you, not Dagger's

As I said, I think the classification of the watercraft is less prominently
displayed than it could have been. This plus the salesman's obvious lack of
knowledge of the craft contributed to my being misled. I'm sure Dagger
appreciates your pro bono defense of them. Yes, it's all my fault, as I
acknowledged in a different post. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
I don't know how many more people want to chime in and castigate me, but
have at it, I don't much care. You'll indulge my reluctance not to post my
GPS coordinates so you all can't come over, line up and spank me.

As I said, the boat's for sale and the (different shop) proprietor /
salesman is pretty confident he'll be able to sell it for me on consignment.
In fact, I think he has a buyer in mind, someone who knows what he wants and
wants a boat that does uncommanded donuts in the hands of a beginner but
will do exactly what an expert wants. And another boat, a FLA****er rental
veteran with lots of miles left on it, has my name on it for about the same
price. So everything is status quo ante except that I've revealed my
ignorance for all of you to point out, and some of you have had a chance to
display your blindingly superior knowledge of this discipline. I imagine
you were never beginners and of course you don't make mistakes.

Me, I'll be more careful whom I trust. Thanks to those who offered to
answer my questions on here. I hooked up with a fellow in real life who's
as kind and knowledgeable as most of you have proven to be. Kind AND
knowledgeable. A nice combination, and not universal attributes. Right,
Steve?

Maria Teresa Chupacabra wrote:

"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...

The fact that Dagger's site lists it among the whitewater kayaks didn't
suggest anything to you?

In retrospect only. I navigated directly from Google to the product page at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257.
That little tab at the top that says "Whitewater" is orange on red, a
minimally visible combination, and I saw it after the fact. Not an excuse,
but a reason.

I can understand that you and your friend are upset, but it's the
salesman's fault for misleading you, not Dagger's

As I said, I think the classification of the watercraft is less prominently
displayed than it could have been. This plus the salesman's obvious lack of
knowledge of the craft contributed to my being misled. I'm sure Dagger
appreciates your pro bono defense of them. Yes, it's all my fault, as I
acknowledged in a different post. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
I don't know how many more people want to chime in and castigate me, but
have at it, I don't much care. You'll indulge my reluctance not to post my
GPS coordinates so you all can't come over, line up and spank me.

As I said, the boat's for sale and the (different shop) proprietor /
salesman is pretty confident he'll be able to sell it for me on consignment.
In fact, I think he has a buyer in mind, someone who knows what he wants and
wants a boat that does uncommanded donuts in the hands of a beginner but
will do exactly what an expert wants. And another boat, a FLA****er rental
veteran with lots of miles left on it, has my name on it for about the same
price. So everything is status quo ante except that I've revealed my
ignorance for all of you to point out, and some of you have had a chance to
display your blindingly superior knowledge of this discipline. I imagine
you were never beginners and of course you don't make mistakes.

Me, I'll be more careful whom I trust. Thanks to those who offered to
answer my questions on here. I hooked up with a fellow in real life who's
as kind and knowledgeable as most of you have proven to be. Kind AND
knowledgeable. A nice combination, and not universal attributes. Right,
Steve?

Whoo, touchy, aren't we? Perhaps you have gotten a lot of feedback you
didn't want, but such is the nature of usenet. I was merely commenting
on your blaming Dagger for the mistake. There's nothing about the Dagger
site that's misleading. Mea culpa doesn't work if you continue to blame
other people unfairly. Ask your local priest.

You might want to actually look at URLs before you click on them.
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257.
^^^^^^^
But you don't want any more advice from me, do you?

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Maria Teresa Chupacabra wrote:
"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...

The fact that Dagger's site lists it among the whitewater kayaks didn't
suggest anything to you?

In retrospect only. I navigated directly from Google to the product page at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257.
That little tab at the top that says "Whitewater" is orange on red, a
minimally visible combination, and I saw it after the fact. Not an excuse,
but a reason.

I can understand that you and your friend are upset, but it's the
salesman's fault for misleading you, not Dagger's

As I said, I think the classification of the watercraft is less prominently
displayed than it could have been. [snip]

Well, in Dagger's defense, they probably made the assuption --
correctly in most cases -- that visitors would navigate to that
particular description after entering at their "home" page. In that
case the visitor would have had to actively press the white-on-red
"Whitewater" tab (which *then* changes to orange-on-red) to get to the
list of whitewater boats. The fact that you might have googled
directly to that page is a subtety their web designer should have
considered, but corporate management (boat-builders, right? Not
necessarily web-savvy) might be forgiven for having failed to consider
the possibility.

Don't feel too bad. When yer new to a sport, hobby, activity, it takes
a while just to discover how much you don't know (I understand yer an
experienced canoeist; I'm refering to your novelty wrt kayaking).
No-one -- least of all Steve Cramer -- in this newsgroup is malicious;
it's just the ol' hastily-typed written-communication-between-strangers
thing, the stuff flame-wars are made of, that doesn't happen in
face-to-face conversations between well-meaning people. Did I set a
record for "number of hyphens in one sentence", or must I keep trying?

But I digress. Even the fact of being steered wrong by the salesman is
not very unusual; I couldn't count the number of people I have heard
from who bought the wrong boat first time out. Including me (I mean,
it *said* "whitewater" right in the name of the model -- the Mohawk
Whitewater 16; how was I to know it was vastly inappropriate for solo
paddling of serious whitewater?) If there is any kind of livery or
kayak school in yer vicinity, yer friend could go a long way toward
nailing down her choice of boat by test-driving a few, and maybe taking
a class and discussing in detail with the instructor the kind of
boating she wants to do (of course, the validity of this can also vary
with the instructor; I've met a few who were so focused on their own
paddling style that they could not be trusted to make unbiased
suggestions).

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--

================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================

The statement that's on Dagger's web site for the Animas is for whitewater
boats and the statement is correct. It is a beginner whitewater boat and
tracks straighter than many other whitewater boats, etc.... If they had
used that description for recreational boats however it would have been a
false statement. Look under the "recreational" descriptions on the company
web pages, not "whitewater". You can even look under "sea kayaks" and get
something that is a beginner sea kayak. It will generally be shorter and
wider that the average sea kayak. It's kind of a hybrid between rec and
sea. If you have any questions about some boats that you're see just write
us and we'll give you feedback on them.

Courtney

"Roger Houston" wrote in message
et...

"Courtney" wrote in message
ink.net...
Why don't you check out www.dagger.com and www.wildernesssystems.com to
name
just two and research their touring and recreational boats. That should
help you with your choices.

As I mentioned in another post, I won't check out Dagger's site as a
source
of primary information. Not knowing anything else about the boat, what is
written on their site at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257
would lead one to believe that the boat tracks and is predictable for
beginners, neither of which proved to be the case with the boat in
question.

I think I'll ask on here; the ng seems to have been a source of pretty
reliable information in other respects.