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On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:16:48 -0400, "Jeff Rigby" wrote:

"P Fritz" wrote in message
...
The typical arrogance of the brain dead liebral is once again on display
"It's very likely that I am far
better informed of what is *really* going on than you are."

And they wonder why they keep losing elections?

DSK is well informed but tends to give weight to arguments that are the
exception rather than look at the whole. For example his response to my
Statement about NCLB was that certain students were left out of the figures,
he didn't mention that some districts are also encourging dropouts to
improve test scores. This was mentioned in the CSPAN coverage of the NCLB
act. He obviously watched it (or selected parts from a biased news network)
but came out of it with a totally different impression than I did. I
actually heard many say that it's working regardless of some districts being
under so much pressure to perform that they cheat.

That's an interesting thought, did he see it in it's entirety or just
selected parts from a biased new media????? Hmmm.

Most likely, based on his comments, the latter.

He seems to find no problems with getting only half the story.

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!

On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 16:05:46 -0400, DSK wrote:

Jeff Rigby wrote:
DSK is well informed

Thanks

... but tends to give weight to arguments that are the
exception rather than look at the whole.

Which is still better (if it were true) than simply making stuff up.

... For example his response to my
Statement about NCLB was that certain students were left out of the figures,
he didn't mention that some districts are also encourging dropouts to
improve test scores.

Which is more common?

... This was mentioned in the CSPAN coverage of the NCLB
act. He obviously watched it (or selected parts from a biased news network)
but came out of it with a totally different impression than I did.

Actually, I skimmed it on the internet. Marvelous invention.

... I
actually heard many say that it's working regardless of some districts being
under so much pressure to perform that they cheat.

???
Better think this over one more time... the program is working so well
that some school districts are holding kids back from taking the tests,
and others are cheating... yep it's working!

That's an interesting thought, did he see it in it's entirety or just
selected parts from a biased new media????? Hmmm.

Neither.

DSK

The fact that some schools are cheating makes the law a bad one?

I suppose laws against murder are bad because some people commit murder.

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!

PocoLoco wrote:
The fact that some schools are cheating makes the law a bad one?

And you pretend to teach math?
I hope you don't think this would pass for "logic"

Let's see... without the law there would be no need to cheat on the test
because the test wouldn't exist. Instead of devoting resources to
passing the Federally mandated tests (by means either fair or foul) then
the schools could devote their resources to teaching what the parents &
local school boards decide.

In other words, the law has created the situation of cheating.

I suppose laws against murder are bad because some people commit murder.

Let's see, did people commit murder before there were laws against it?
Does the law make the murder possible in the first place? Where exactly
is this any kind of remotely analogous comparison?

Think

DSK

OT Let the Spinning Begin!

"DSK" wrote in message
...
PocoLoco wrote:
The fact that some schools are cheating makes the law a bad one?

And you pretend to teach math?
I hope you don't think this would pass for "logic"

Let's see... without the law there would be no need to cheat on the test
because the test wouldn't exist. Instead of devoting resources to passing
the Federally mandated tests (by means either fair or foul) then the
schools could devote their resources to teaching what the parents & local
school boards decide.

In other words, the law has created the situation of cheating.

The original question: "Is the NCLB act working?", IF there is pressure to
perform and the majority ARE performing then it's better than the schools
would be with no NCLB act.

Your statement seems to indicate that the students don't need these skills,
that there is some OTHER agenda in the school system beyond teaching basic
skills like math and reading.

The fact that schools have to concentrate on basic skills to the exclusion
of all other academics is hopefully a short term problem as those coming up
thru the school system will have those skills before they reach high school.
I don't see the problem in teaching basic skills if they don't have them.
They are a necessary building block for future academics.

OT Let the Spinning Begin!

In other words, the law has created the situation of cheating.

Jeff Rigby wrote:
The original question: "Is the NCLB act working?", IF there is pressure to
perform and the majority ARE performing then it's better than the schools
would be with no NCLB act.

1- it isn't established for certain that the majority are performing
2- it is very far from established that the test standards are closely
related to worthwhile educational goals
3- it is very definitely established that the schools are losing
resources to the demands of constant testing
4- it is very definitely established that it is far more difficult to
hire teachers

Now for the questions which require actual thought

Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has siezed
control of local school curriculums at all grade levels?

Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has implemented
this program designed to politically benefit the far right wing of the
Republican party at least two ways- in the short term by undercutting
the teacher's unions, notoriously liberal and almost monolithically
Democrat- in the long run by reducing educational competition and upward
mobility, thus increasing the stratification of the US?

Then there is the issue of whether it's a good thing to teach children
that they must constantly jump thru hoops set for them by the Federal
gov't, an attitude they will presumably carry forward into adult life.
This is a strange thing for "conservatives" (especially 'conservatives'
who express such disdain for the gummint) to approve.

Your statement seems to indicate that the students don't need these skills,

Well, it's big question as to whether you prefer rote memorization &
regurgitation of standardized material to a more complex form of
learning. Nothing wrong with memorization.

that there is some OTHER agenda in the school system beyond teaching basic
skills like math and reading.

Umm do you think there's *not* another agenda?

Sort of liek, do you think that President Bush *really* intends to try &
outlaw abortion and gay marriage? If he actually did that, how could he
rally the faithful at the next election?

The fact that schools have to concentrate on basic skills to the exclusion
of all other academics is hopefully a short term problem as those coming up
thru the school system will have those skills before they reach high school.
I don't see the problem in teaching basic skills if they don't have them.
They are a necessary building block for future academics.

Agreed. But 1- I don't think the NCLB is actually "working" anywhere
near as well as it's boosters claim and 2- it makes me very uneasy to
have the Federal gov't simply take control of a previously locally
controlled and locally funded community asset.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, being neither a teacher or a
parent. But it's interesting to observe the way this mind-control
program has been developed and approved by the very people who screamed
bloody murder at any previous attempt to Federally regulate schools.

DSK

OT Let the Spinning Begin!

"DSK" wrote in message
...
In other words, the law has created the situation of cheating.

Jeff Rigby wrote:
The original question: "Is the NCLB act working?", IF there is pressure
to perform and the majority ARE performing then it's better than the
schools would be with no NCLB act.

1- it isn't established for certain that the majority are performing
2- it is very far from established that the test standards are closely
related to worthwhile educational goals
3- it is very definitely established that the schools are losing resources
to the demands of constant testing
4- it is very definitely established that it is far more difficult to hire
teachers

Now for the questions which require actual thought

Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has siezed control
of local school curriculums at all grade levels?
To the extent that they require passing a basic skills test to get Federal
money yes. How do you feel about a school not getting accreditation?

If the school system was doing a good job then the impact of the Fed
government would be a couple of hours a year. In the schools I attended 1/2
the class would pass the FCAT test (Floridas version of the Fed requirement)
without any remedial lesson plans. After being shocked by the statement
that you won't get a diploma unless you can pass the test, a further 20%
would be able to pass the test ( a reason for paying attention in class)
without remedial lesson plans.

The point is that the schools are now serious about education.

Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has implemented
this program designed to politically benefit the far right wing of the
Republican party at least two ways- in the short term by undercutting the
teacher's unions, notoriously liberal and almost monolithically Democrat-
in the long run by reducing educational competition and upward mobility,
thus increasing the stratification of the US?

Far right wing???? Gesh. I'm for it, have been for it for 20 years, way
before it was picked up as a "cause" by the Republican party. We've been
trying to get testing adopted here for that long and always blocked by the
unions. I believe in TESTING, both teachers and students. The Teachers
union does not as that can point out performance problems (teachers NOT
doing their job).

That it undercuts a union that is "monolithically democrat" points to a
problem in the DEMOCRAT mind set! Can't you see that?

Reducing educational competition, far from it as it gives a common standard
where all may be judged on their performance and encourages competition.
Nothing stifles competition more than a non-objective standard for
evaluating performance.

How does it stop upward mobility unless you are assuming that minoritys are
given a pass under the old system. There will always be stratification, I
prefer one based on ability and performance not who you know and what party
you belong to.

Then there is the issue of whether it's a good thing to teach children
that they must constantly jump thru hoops set for them by the Federal
gov't, an attitude they will presumably carry forward into adult life.
This is a strange thing for "conservatives" (especially 'conservatives'
who express such disdain for the gummint) to approve.

Your statement seems to indicate that the students don't need these
skills,

Well, it's big question as to whether you prefer rote memorization &
regurgitation of standardized material to a more complex form of learning.
Nothing wrong with memorization.

that there is some OTHER agenda in the school system beyond teaching
basic skills like math and reading.

Umm do you think there's *not* another agenda?

Sort of liek, do you think that President Bush *really* intends to try &
outlaw abortion and gay marriage? If he actually did that, how could he
rally the faithful at the next election?

The fact that schools have to concentrate on basic skills to the
exclusion of all other academics is hopefully a short term problem as
those coming up thru the school system will have those skills before they
reach high school. I don't see the problem in teaching basic skills if
they don't have them. They are a necessary building block for future
academics.

Agreed. But 1- I don't think the NCLB is actually "working" anywhere near
as well as it's boosters claim and 2- it makes me very uneasy to have the
Federal gov't simply take control of a previously locally controlled and
locally funded community asset.

It's working, as to how well that's debateable. I'm sure there could be a
better system but it couldn't get thru the "DOG FIGHT" we all had in
congress. It's a start though and past due.

Take control of the local schools? Again what got thru congress was to test
basic reading and math skills....those should be apolitical for Gods sake.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, being neither a teacher or a
parent. But it's interesting to observe the way this mind-control program
has been developed and approved by the very people who screamed bloody
murder at any previous attempt to Federally regulate schools.

DSK

Mind control? Hmm, teaching math mind control....must be the logic
connection that math needs. You seem to fear that children will learn to
put two and two together and that will cause them to vote Republican.

OT Let the Spinning Begin!

On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 21:42:59 -0400, DSK wrote:

PocoLoco wrote:
The fact that some schools are cheating makes the law a bad one?

And you pretend to teach math?
I hope you don't think this would pass for "logic"

Let's see... without the law there would be no need to cheat on the test
because the test wouldn't exist. Instead of devoting resources to
passing the Federally mandated tests (by means either fair or foul) then
the schools could devote their resources to teaching what the parents &
local school boards decide.

In other words, the law has created the situation of cheating.

Ah, now I see. Before this law there was no cheating. Your lack of knowledge
about educational institutions is showing.

I suppose laws against murder are bad because some people commit murder.

Let's see, did people commit murder before there were laws against it?
Does the law make the murder possible in the first place? Where exactly
is this any kind of remotely analogous comparison?

Think

DSK

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan