OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 06:49:49 -0400, DSK wrote:

In other words, the law has created the situation of cheating.



Jeff Rigby wrote:
The original question: "Is the NCLB act working?", IF there is pressure to
perform and the majority ARE performing then it's better than the schools
would be with no NCLB act.


1- it isn't established for certain that the majority are performing
2- it is very far from established that the test standards are closely
related to worthwhile educational goals
3- it is very definitely established that the schools are losing
resources to the demands of constant testing
4- it is very definitely established that it is far more difficult to
hire teachers

Now for the questions which require actual thought

Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has siezed
control of local school curriculums at all grade levels?

Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has implemented
this program designed to politically benefit the far right wing of the
Republican party at least two ways- in the short term by undercutting
the teacher's unions, notoriously liberal and almost monolithically
Democrat- in the long run by reducing educational competition and upward
mobility, thus increasing the stratification of the US?

Then there is the issue of whether it's a good thing to teach children
that they must constantly jump thru hoops set for them by the Federal
gov't, an attitude they will presumably carry forward into adult life.
This is a strange thing for "conservatives" (especially 'conservatives'
who express such disdain for the gummint) to approve.

Your statement seems to indicate that the students don't need these skills,

Well, it's big question as to whether you prefer rote memorization &
regurgitation of standardized material to a more complex form of
learning. Nothing wrong with memorization.

that there is some OTHER agenda in the school system beyond teaching basic
skills like math and reading.


Umm do you think there's *not* another agenda?

Sort of liek, do you think that President Bush *really* intends to try &
outlaw abortion and gay marriage? If he actually did that, how could he
rally the faithful at the next election?


The fact that schools have to concentrate on basic skills to the exclusion
of all other academics is hopefully a short term problem as those coming up
thru the school system will have those skills before they reach high school.
I don't see the problem in teaching basic skills if they don't have them.
They are a necessary building block for future academics.


Agreed. But 1- I don't think the NCLB is actually "working" anywhere
near as well as it's boosters claim and 2- it makes me very uneasy to
have the Federal gov't simply take control of a previously locally
controlled and locally funded community asset.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, being neither a teacher or a
parent. But it's interesting to observe the way this mind-control
program has been developed and approved by the very people who screamed
bloody murder at any previous attempt to Federally regulate schools.

DSK

You can spew horse **** faster than most.

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has siezed control
of local school curriculums at all grade levels?

Jeff Rigby wrote:
To the extent that they require passing a basic skills test to get Federal
money yes. How do you feel about a school not getting accreditation?


Depends on whose accreditation and what it entails. If I were a parent
concerned with my child's education, that would be just one small item
on a list of concerns.

If the school system was doing a good job then the impact of the Fed
government would be a couple of hours a year.

"If the school was doing a good job" of teaching the exact test curriculum.


... In the schools I attended 1/2
the class would pass the FCAT test (Floridas version of the Fed requirement)
without any remedial lesson plans. After being shocked by the statement
that you won't get a diploma unless you can pass the test, a further 20%
would be able to pass the test ( a reason for paying attention in class)
without remedial lesson plans.

Well, they weren't very far behind, and at least they saw some value in
receiving a diploma.


The point is that the schools are now serious about education.


No, the point is that schools are serious about grabbing Federal money
and making the kids jump thru hoops so they can get it.


Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has implemented
this program designed to politically benefit the far right wing of the
Republican party at least two ways- in the short term by undercutting the
teacher's unions, notoriously liberal and almost monolithically Democrat-
in the long run by reducing educational competition and upward mobility,
thus increasing the stratification of the US?


Far right wing???? Gesh. I'm for it, have been for it for 20 years, way
before it was picked up as a "cause" by the Republican party. We've been
trying to get testing adopted here for that long and always blocked by the
unions. I believe in TESTING, both teachers and students. The Teachers
union does not as that can point out performance problems (teachers NOT
doing their job).


So, it's those darn greedy teachers, isn't it? I guess they all becamse
teachers so they could get rich while sitting around on an easy job.


That it undercuts a union that is "monolithically democrat" points to a
problem in the DEMOCRAT mind set! Can't you see that?


No, because it's not the problem unless you are determined that "the
best thing" is a monolithic Republican hegemony.

Since it is Republicans (and Libertarians, except that most of them are
too obviously nut-cases to get elected) that are threatening schools &
teachers, it seems pretty natural to me that teachers would gravitate to
the other side.




... There will always be stratification, I
prefer one based on ability and performance not who you know and what party
you belong to.


Seems to me that the Republican goal is the exact opposite... economic &
political stratification based on who your parents are, rather than any
natural ability.



Then there is the issue of whether it's a good thing to teach children
that they must constantly jump thru hoops set for them by the Federal
gov't, an attitude they will presumably carry forward into adult life.
This is a strange thing for "conservatives" (especially 'conservatives'
who express such disdain for the gummint) to approve.


I noticed you didn't have an answer for this one.


It's working, as to how well that's debateable. I'm sure there could be a
better system but it couldn't get thru the "DOG FIGHT" we all had in
congress. It's a start though and past due.


Agreed, except that it's a start in the wrong direction and under the
wrong principles. Kind of like the way the "prescription drug benefit"
is a start, except that it's really just corporate welfare for the drug
companies (who are already immensely profitable).




Mind control? Hmm, teaching math mind control....must be the logic
connection that math needs. You seem to fear that children will learn to
put two and two together and that will cause them to vote Republican.


Possibly, but I think the real fear on the part of pro-Bush Republicans
is that if you teach kids history & economics, they will certainly NOT
vote for any activist Christian "neo-conservative."

DSK

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has siezed control
of local school curriculums at all grade levels?

Jeff Rigby wrote:
To the extent that they require passing a basic skills test to get
Federal money yes. How do you feel about a school not getting
accreditation?


Depends on whose accreditation and what it entails. If I were a parent
concerned with my child's education, that would be just one small item on
a list of concerns.

If the school system was doing a good job then the impact of the Fed
government would be a couple of hours a year.

"If the school was doing a good job" of teaching the exact test
curriculum.


... In the schools I attended 1/2 the class would pass the FCAT test
(Floridas version of the Fed requirement) without any remedial lesson
plans. After being shocked by the statement that you won't get a diploma
unless you can pass the test, a further 20% would be able to pass the
test ( a reason for paying attention in class) without remedial lesson
plans.

Well, they weren't very far behind, and at least they saw some value in
receiving a diploma.


The point is that the schools are now serious about education.


No, the point is that schools are serious about grabbing Federal money and
making the kids jump thru hoops so they can get it.


Do you consider it a good thing that the Federal gov't has implemented
this program designed to politically benefit the far right wing of the
Republican party at least two ways- in the short term by undercutting the
teacher's unions, notoriously liberal and almost monolithically Democrat-
in the long run by reducing educational competition and upward mobility,
thus increasing the stratification of the US?


Far right wing???? Gesh. I'm for it, have been for it for 20 years, way
before it was picked up as a "cause" by the Republican party. We've been
trying to get testing adopted here for that long and always blocked by
the unions. I believe in TESTING, both teachers and students. The
Teachers union does not as that can point out performance problems
(teachers NOT doing their job).


So, it's those darn greedy teachers, isn't it? I guess they all becamse
teachers so they could get rich while sitting around on an easy job.

The teachers I've talked to were in favor of testing, the union is the only
one that has been consistently against testing. The teachers are split
about 50/50 on the current plan, the ones who voiced disfavor didn't like
having to teach to the test. It made the curriculm too narrow in their
view.


That it undercuts a union that is "monolithically democrat" points to a
problem in the DEMOCRAT mind set! Can't you see that?


No, because it's not the problem unless you are determined that "the best
thing" is a monolithic Republican hegemony.

I have consistently said that we need a two party system. For any
organization to monolithic is to be inbred and without imagination.

Since it is Republicans (and Libertarians, except that most of them are
too obviously nut-cases to get elected) that are threatening schools &
teachers, it seems pretty natural to me that teachers would gravitate to
the other side.

Threatining????? Withholding the carrot is threatining. Wow, Doctor Spock
rears his ugly head again. Haven't you heard, most professionals have
repudiated his methods.


... There will always be stratification, I prefer one based on ability
and performance not who you know and what party you belong to.


Seems to me that the Republican goal is the exact opposite... economic &
political stratification based on who your parents are, rather than any
natural ability.

Again your "view" on Republican goals is 180 degrees out of true. We LIKE
small business as they can allow the small guy to get his share of the pie.
Most small buiness is started by individuals that were not born with a
silver spoon in their mouth. This is in stark contrast with most of the
inherrited wealth in this country belonging to the democrat party.


Then there is the issue of whether it's a good thing to teach children
that they must constantly jump thru hoops set for them by the Federal
gov't, an attitude they will presumably carry forward into adult life.
This is a strange thing for "conservatives" (especially 'conservatives'
who express such disdain for the gummint) to approve.


I noticed you didn't have an answer for this one.

Didn't think I needed to. Big government and endless regulation is a
Democrat thing.


It's working, as to how well that's debateable. I'm sure there could be
a better system but it couldn't get thru the "DOG FIGHT" we all had in
congress. It's a start though and past due.


Agreed, except that it's a start in the wrong direction and under the
wrong principles. Kind of like the way the "prescription drug benefit" is
a start, except that it's really just corporate welfare for the drug
companies (who are already immensely profitable).




Mind control? Hmm, teaching math mind control....must be the logic
connection that math needs. You seem to fear that children will learn to
put two and two together and that will cause them to vote Republican.

Possibly, but I think the real fear on the part of pro-Bush Republicans is
that if you teach kids history & economics, they will certainly NOT vote
for any activist Christian "neo-conservative."

And I hope the Democrats won't force me to vote for one as the lesser of two
evils either. That's no joke.

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

So, it's those darn greedy teachers, isn't it? I guess they all becamse
teachers so they could get rich while sitting around on an easy job.


Jeff Rigby wrote:
The teachers I've talked to were in favor of testing, the union is the only
one that has been consistently against testing.

That depends on how you word the question, as always. Relatively few
teachers, including union ones, are against testing their students.
However most... more nearly all... teacher are against being handed an
extensive blueprint for material that they must teach the kids by rote,
enforced by frequent & exhaustive testing.

For one thing, giving tests every month or so uses up a lot of class time.




... The teachers are split
about 50/50 on the current plan

Hmm, you must live in a really pro-Bush/Cheney area. The teacher I know
are about 80% against the current NCLB plan, with about half of those
against being very vocal & demonstrative... and about 10% of the
pro-NCLB teachers saying things like 'it's not as bad as they say' or
'it could be worse.' What excellent praise, you can see why I hold the
views I have.



... the ones who voiced disfavor didn't like
having to teach to the test. It made the curriculm too narrow in their
view.


Yep. And pretty much all the teachers I have discussed the issue with
say that this is *all* they have time to teach.



I have consistently said that we need a two party system. For any
organization to monolithic is to be inbred and without imagination.


Possibly so, but any organiztion that is consistantly attacked will
unite against it's attacker.


Since it is Republicans (and Libertarians, except that most of them are
too obviously nut-cases to get elected) that are threatening schools &
teachers, it seems pretty natural to me that teachers would gravitate to
the other side.


Threatining????? Withholding the carrot is threatining.

Is being fired, and losing your state license (with the very high
probability of being unable to get a license in any other of these
United States, since NCLB is Federal) "withholding the carrot?"

... Wow, Doctor Spock
rears his ugly head again. Haven't you heard, most professionals have
repudiated his methods.


???







Again your "view" on Republican goals is 180 degrees out of true. We LIKE
small business as they can allow the small guy to get his share of the pie.

Really? Like no-bid contracts?


Most small buiness is started by individuals that were not born with a
silver spoon in their mouth. This is in stark contrast with most of the
inherrited wealth in this country belonging to the democrat party.


???

Interesting view of the Democrats... I suppose George W. Bush Jr was
born poor and fought his way to the top on his own merit? I suppose he
worked hard at a small business and made it a success?


Then there is the issue of whether it's a good thing to teach children
that they must constantly jump thru hoops set for them by the Federal
gov't, an attitude they will presumably carry forward into adult life.
This is a strange thing for "conservatives" (especially 'conservatives'
who express such disdain for the gummint) to approve.


I noticed you didn't have an answer for this one.


Didn't think I needed to. Big government and endless regulation is a
Democrat thing.


Except in cases where Republicans are pushing the agenda, like the
Homeland Security Dept and the NCLB and a few other examples.

Better wake up and smell the coffee, next thing you know you'll be
saying how the Democrats are fiscally irresponsible...




And I hope the Democrats won't force me to vote for one as the lesser of two
evils either. That's no joke.


Agreed. I hope you take a close look at your principles and see which
party is following them more closely.

DSK

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 12:00:17 -0400, DSK wrote:

So, it's those darn greedy teachers, isn't it? I guess they all becamse
teachers so they could get rich while sitting around on an easy job.


Jeff Rigby wrote:
The teachers I've talked to were in favor of testing, the union is the only
one that has been consistently against testing.

That depends on how you word the question, as always. Relatively few
teachers, including union ones, are against testing their students.
However most... more nearly all... teacher are against being handed an
extensive blueprint for material that they must teach the kids by rote,
enforced by frequent & exhaustive testing.

For one thing, giving tests every month or so uses up a lot of class time.




... The teachers are split
about 50/50 on the current plan

Hmm, you must live in a really pro-Bush/Cheney area. The teacher I know
are about 80% against the current NCLB plan, with about half of those
against being very vocal & demonstrative... and about 10% of the
pro-NCLB teachers saying things like 'it's not as bad as they say' or
'it could be worse.' What excellent praise, you can see why I hold the
views I have.



... the ones who voiced disfavor didn't like
having to teach to the test. It made the curriculm too narrow in their
view.


Yep. And pretty much all the teachers I have discussed the issue with
say that this is *all* they have time to teach.



I have consistently said that we need a two party system. For any
organization to monolithic is to be inbred and without imagination.


Possibly so, but any organiztion that is consistantly attacked will
unite against it's attacker.


Since it is Republicans (and Libertarians, except that most of them are
too obviously nut-cases to get elected) that are threatening schools &
teachers, it seems pretty natural to me that teachers would gravitate to
the other side.


Threatining????? Withholding the carrot is threatining.

Is being fired, and losing your state license (with the very high
probability of being unable to get a license in any other of these
United States, since NCLB is Federal) "withholding the carrot?"

... Wow, Doctor Spock
rears his ugly head again. Haven't you heard, most professionals have
repudiated his methods.


???







Again your "view" on Republican goals is 180 degrees out of true. We LIKE
small business as they can allow the small guy to get his share of the pie.

Really? Like no-bid contracts?


Most small buiness is started by individuals that were not born with a
silver spoon in their mouth. This is in stark contrast with most of the
inherrited wealth in this country belonging to the democrat party.


???

Interesting view of the Democrats... I suppose George W. Bush Jr was
born poor and fought his way to the top on his own merit? I suppose he
worked hard at a small business and made it a success?


Then there is the issue of whether it's a good thing to teach children
that they must constantly jump thru hoops set for them by the Federal
gov't, an attitude they will presumably carry forward into adult life.
This is a strange thing for "conservatives" (especially 'conservatives'
who express such disdain for the gummint) to approve.


I noticed you didn't have an answer for this one.


Didn't think I needed to. Big government and endless regulation is a
Democrat thing.


Except in cases where Republicans are pushing the agenda, like the
Homeland Security Dept and the NCLB and a few other examples.

Better wake up and smell the coffee, next thing you know you'll be
saying how the Democrats are fiscally irresponsible...




And I hope the Democrats won't force me to vote for one as the lesser of two
evils either. That's no joke.


Agreed. I hope you take a close look at your principles and see which
party is following them more closely.

DSK

We've been through discussion before. You quit when I pointed you to the
Virginia Standards of Learning and asked you to show me the problems therein.

On the one hand you say 'the curriculum is too narrow'. On the other hand you
say teachers have no time to teach anything but the test. How do you rationalize
those two statements?

A broader curriculum, and a test broader in scope, would require more time.

Schools should be given a set of learning objectives for the students. The
teachers should do whatever is necessary to accomplish those objectives. The
learning of those objectives should then be tested.

The unions don't like the use of standards and tests because it makes the
identification of incompetent teachers easy.

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

PocoLoco wrote:
We've been through discussion before. You quit when I pointed you to the
Virginia Standards of Learning and asked you to show me the problems therein.


Not at all. You began yowling that the fact that Virginia hasn't used up
all it's NCLB funding seemed to prove that President Bush is a visionary
genius and God's gift to public education. No point in further
discussion... in fact I'm not sure there is now, but I've already started.


On the one hand you say 'the curriculum is too narrow'. On the other hand you
say teachers have no time to teach anything but the test. How do you rationalize
those two statements?


Simple. They're true.

A broader curriculum, and a test broader in scope, would require more time.


If the tests were given every few weeks, yeah.


Schools should be given a set of learning objectives for the students.

Agreed.
But not necessarily by the Federal gov't.

I guess this is one case where you welcome a little Federal intrusion,
and a bigger gummint?

... The
teachers should do whatever is necessary to accomplish those objectives.

Well, one way to guarantee that is to shoot the students most likely to
fail. Is this what you recommend?



The unions don't like the use of standards and tests because it makes the
identification of incompetent teachers easy.

Once again, we come down to political warfare against the teachers,
which is really the whole point of NCLB. Thank you for bringing it up.

What percent of school teachers do you think are "incompetent" John? 1%?
5%? 10%?

How about if we just fire the bottom 15% just to be sure we catch them
all, them make it difficult for the schools to hire replacements? In
addition, let's make school teaching less attractive as a profession so
people will be more motivated by money and less by personal altruism to
enter teaching.

What about the majority of teachers who have done well with their local
curriculums, who are now strapped to the Procrustean bed of NCLB.

I doubt you know what that means, since your standards of education are
so high, so here's a link
http://www.bartleby.com/61/85/P0578500.html

THINK! It may be painful in the short term, but you may find you like
the results.

DSK

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...

... The
teachers should do whatever is necessary to accomplish those objectives.

Well, one way to guarantee that is to shoot the students most likely to
fail. Is this what you recommend?

The whole initiative is a joke. Testing is useful for measurement and
ego-boosting, but it doesn't address the real issue as I see it. Kids learn
because they have good examples in their lives. This can include
either/or/and:

- Parents who display a high level of regard for learning, and pay lots of
attention to what their kids are doing in school. Doesn't seem to matter if
we're totally incapable of helping them with calculus - it's the attention
that matters.

- Friends who do I-don't-know-what, other than positive peer influence. Last
spring, my son said he was already overloaded with AP courses, and didn't
want to add AP physics. I goaded him, his counselor poked him, and finally,
he said two of his friends started acting like cheerleaders and he changed
his mind.

I don't think you can get lousy parents to step up to the plate, but there's
probably an imaginative way to incentivize high achieving kids to help
others. Maybe small scholarships in return for tutoring, or something like
that. Or, something more valuable than gold to teenagers: Gift certificates
good at more than one mall.

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 15:05:00 -0400, DSK wrote:

PocoLoco wrote:
We've been through discussion before. You quit when I pointed you to the
Virginia Standards of Learning and asked you to show me the problems therein.


Not at all. You began yowling that the fact that Virginia hasn't used up
all it's NCLB funding seemed to prove that President Bush is a visionary
genius and God's gift to public education. No point in further
discussion... in fact I'm not sure there is now, but I've already started.


Wrong. I said no such thing. You immediately start with bull****.

On the one hand you say 'the curriculum is too narrow'. On the other hand you
say teachers have no time to teach anything but the test. How do you rationalize
those two statements?


Simple. They're true.

Whooosh!

A broader curriculum, and a test broader in scope, would require more time.


If the tests were given every few weeks, yeah.

Why would the tests be given every few weeks? Virginia gives the Standards of
Learning test once a year.

Or, are you just injecting more bull****?


Schools should be given a set of learning objectives for the students.

Agreed.
But not necessarily by the Federal gov't.

If the states have learning objectives, which meet the minimal requirements of
the Feds, then they aren't *required* to use the Feds' objectives. Virginia uses
its own.

I guess this is one case where you welcome a little Federal intrusion,
and a bigger gummint?

If it means placing education standards in the states without them, yes.



... The
teachers should do whatever is necessary to accomplish those objectives.

Well, one way to guarantee that is to shoot the students most likely to
fail. Is this what you recommend?


More bull****?



The unions don't like the use of standards and tests because it makes the
identification of incompetent teachers easy.

Once again, we come down to political warfare against the teachers,
which is really the whole point of NCLB. Thank you for bringing it up.

I've no idea where that came from. Who is waging the war, the unions? Or is it
just more bull****?


What percent of school teachers do you think are "incompetent" John? 1%?
5%? 10%?

In my school, I'd say it's in the 5% range. Some were weeded out this last year
when they couldn't pass the Praxis. The standards Virginia are quite high, as
far as the Praxis goes. These standards will probably (IMO) be lowered with the
realization that many of the graduates from some of the 'teachers' colleges' in
the state can't meet the requirements.

How about if we just fire the bottom 15% just to be sure we catch them
all, them make it difficult for the schools to hire replacements? In
addition, let's make school teaching less attractive as a profession so
people will be more motivated by money and less by personal altruism to
enter teaching.

More bull****?

What about the majority of teachers who have done well with their local
curriculums, who are now strapped to the Procrustean bed of NCLB.

How do you define 'done well'? Or is this just more bull****?

I doubt you know what that means, since your standards of education are
so high, so here's a link
http://www.bartleby.com/61/85/P0578500.html

Conformity to minimum standards is necessary.

THINK! It may be painful in the short term, but you may find you like
the results.

More bull****?

DSK


--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 19:21:31 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"DSK" wrote in message
...

... The
teachers should do whatever is necessary to accomplish those objectives.

Well, one way to guarantee that is to shoot the students most likely to
fail. Is this what you recommend?

The whole initiative is a joke. Testing is useful for measurement and
ego-boosting, but it doesn't address the real issue as I see it. Kids learn
because they have good examples in their lives. This can include
either/or/and:

- Parents who display a high level of regard for learning, and pay lots of
attention to what their kids are doing in school. Doesn't seem to matter if
we're totally incapable of helping them with calculus - it's the attention
that matters.

- Friends who do I-don't-know-what, other than positive peer influence. Last
spring, my son said he was already overloaded with AP courses, and didn't
want to add AP physics. I goaded him, his counselor poked him, and finally,
he said two of his friends started acting like cheerleaders and he changed
his mind.

I don't think you can get lousy parents to step up to the plate, but there's
probably an imaginative way to incentivize high achieving kids to help
others. Maybe small scholarships in return for tutoring, or something like
that. Or, something more valuable than gold to teenagers: Gift certificates
good at more than one mall.


Each year the students here are required to perform a number of community
service hours. The math department has set up a peer tutoring program in which
students can receive credit for their service hours. The program works well, and
many students continue with the tutoring well past the service hour requirement.

Testing isn't a joke. Often it's the only way to get a parent's attention. If
the kids have the good examples, parental and peer support, then the tests to
show minimum competency aren't necessary.

--
John H

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Ronald Reagan

OT Let the Spinning Begin!
 

"PocoLoco" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 19:21:31 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .

... The
teachers should do whatever is necessary to accomplish those
objectives.

Well, one way to guarantee that is to shoot the students most likely to
fail. Is this what you recommend?

The whole initiative is a joke. Testing is useful for measurement and
ego-boosting, but it doesn't address the real issue as I see it. Kids
learn
because they have good examples in their lives. This can include
either/or/and:

- Parents who display a high level of regard for learning, and pay lots of
attention to what their kids are doing in school. Doesn't seem to matter
if
we're totally incapable of helping them with calculus - it's the attention
that matters.

- Friends who do I-don't-know-what, other than positive peer influence.
Last
spring, my son said he was already overloaded with AP courses, and didn't
want to add AP physics. I goaded him, his counselor poked him, and
finally,
he said two of his friends started acting like cheerleaders and he changed
his mind.

I don't think you can get lousy parents to step up to the plate, but
there's
probably an imaginative way to incentivize high achieving kids to help
others. Maybe small scholarships in return for tutoring, or something like
that. Or, something more valuable than gold to teenagers: Gift
certificates
good at more than one mall.


Each year the students here are required to perform a number of community
service hours. The math department has set up a peer tutoring program in
which
students can receive credit for their service hours. The program works
well, and
many students continue with the tutoring well past the service hour
requirement.

Testing isn't a joke. Often it's the only way to get a parent's attention.
If
the kids have the good examples, parental and peer support, then the tests
to
show minimum competency aren't necessary.

It's circular anyway. Kids who want to achieve will do so regardless of the
tests. And, sometimes (as I'm sure you know), lousy test results have no
impact on parents. So, we end up with a generation who listens to a certain
politician mangle the language, and they consider it normal.