John wrote in message
oups.com...
I as a juror would prefer to point the blame where it lies. We all know
that wakes are an unavoidable fact of life. Unfortunately, when the
judge charges the jury, he will explain the law to them. It's not that
uncommon for a judge to overturn a jury's decision, especially when
they have been swayed by emotion and common sense.
I agree with you totally. I'm just stating a fact of law. "A vessel
operator is always responsible for any damage caused by the vessel's
wake." Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no exclusions or
exceptions.
The lack of an extra seaman did not capsize that boat.

John


Recent news suggest a theory that the boat was overloaded, weight-wise.
Seems the passenger capacity number of 50 is based on criteria that is over
40 years old.

Eisboch
John

Michael Gardner wrote:



The boat had loose chairs in it -


No, it didn't. It has fixed benches.

Rob

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 22:05:22 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 21:27:13 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"John" wrote in message
groups.com...
good point

Maybe I'll be a trial lawyer when I grow up.

I thought of law school at one point in my early professional career.

Then I decided that it wasn't for me.

You might've been a real pain in the ass in a courtroom.

I would have made a better strategist rather than a tactician I'm
afraid. I have to ponder things for a while and I'm not all that
quick in the auditory processing department - it's called something,
but I can't remember what it is - my wife deals with it all the time
in school (she specializes in it) and claims that I'm a classic
example.

Not to make light of it, but I have a few of those foam beverage can holders
with slogans on them. On one: "My wife says I never listen, or something
like that".

It's interesting to note that the occupancy limit was based on a weight of
140 pounds per person. I read a news article
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051005/D8D200P88.html indicating that
because Americans are getting fatter that the boat may have been running
overweight and that the weight of 160 lbs/person should be the new spec.

If these retired folks are anything like the ones I see at Wal-Mart
bulging over the seats of little electric carts, perhaps 160 lbs. would be
a bit on the light side.

b.

I heard a phone interview on Fox News with an investigator who was on the
scene at the time of the recovery. The Fox News interviewer asked about
the "loose plastic seats" that everyone is reporting, and the investigator
corrected her and said that the seats were similar to public park bench
seats, and were fastened down(still). He said that the seats hadn't slid,
but the passengers may have.
Asking the survivors if people slid to one side would be the way to find out
if the cargo mass shifting is what caused the capsize.
I suspect that the captain took the wake in a quartering move and this
caused a couple of severe lists that were exaggerated after the passengers
were thrown to one side after the first tilt. Crossing a large wake usually
results in two or three tilts.

Here's more, from ABC news:
Oct. 4, 2005 - The first 911 call to the Warren County Sheriff's Office
came in at 2:54:33, a hysterical woman, shouting for help.

Within "five or six to 10 minutes," rescue boats had arrived at the scene,
but the worst inland water disaster in U.S. history had already claimed the
lives of 20 elderly people. Their deaths, according to medical reports, were
caused by hypothermia, drowning and aggravation of pre-existing medical
conditions.


a.. Audio: Lake George 911 Call




The response time for the official rescue boats is well above any
expectation, and by the time those boats arrived, civilian vessels had
already begun pulling people from the water.

Clearing Up Rumors

According to Sheriff Larry Cleveland, who examined the toar boat "Ethan
Allen" on Monday, there was no immediately visible evidence of a
catastrophic failure. Cleveland cleared up a number of errors or
inaccuracies in early accounts, including at least one that came from his
own office:


There were no loose, plastic chairs on the Ethan Allen. All passengers were
seated on park bench-type seats, bolted to the deck of the 40-year-old,
40-foot vessel.


There was no fire or explosion as three eyewitnesses reported. The large
plume of smoke that rose as the boat capsized was the result of the cold
lake water pouring onto the hot inboard diesel that propelled the boat.


Although intitial reports blamed the wake of a larger vessel, the Mohican,
for flipping the boat, it appears that it was nowhere near the Ethan Allen.
The sheriff said the Mohican had been plying the lake for 90 years and the
Ethan Allen since 1979, with no prior incident.


The operator of the Ethan Allen was not turning the vessel to shore when it
capsized. He was turning it, perhaps as much as 40 degrees, in order to
bring the vessel's bow into the waves and wakes.



What Are the Facts?

"He told us there was some wave action that he was trying to combat,"
Cleveland said. He said that the operator, 74-year-old Richard Paris, is
both fully qualified and fully able to pilot the boat. He has cooperated
with the investigation.


The sheriff said he and his department, with the assistance of the New York
State Police, have interviewed the 27 survivors but not all of the
eyewitnesses. The majority of the survivors say the vessel listed to the
left (port) before capsizing. Several also reported the bow was down before
the capsize.


The sheriff cautioned that eyewitness accounts can often be inaccurate,
including the three witnesses in this case who said they saw fire and heard
an explosion.


The Ethan Allen was in 67 feet of water when it hit bottom, and was about
500 to 600 feet off Cramer's Point.

Here's more, from ABC news:
Oct. 4, 2005 - The first 911 call to the Warren County Sheriff's Office
came in at 2:54:33, a hysterical woman, shouting for help.

Within "five or six to 10 minutes," rescue boats had arrived at the scene,
but the worst inland water disaster in U.S. history had already claimed the
lives of 20 elderly people. Their deaths, according to medical reports, were
caused by hypothermia, drowning and aggravation of pre-existing medical
conditions.


a.. Audio: Lake George 911 Call




The response time for the official rescue boats is well above any
expectation, and by the time those boats arrived, civilian vessels had
already begun pulling people from the water.

Clearing Up Rumors

According to Sheriff Larry Cleveland, who examined the toar boat "Ethan
Allen" on Monday, there was no immediately visible evidence of a
catastrophic failure. Cleveland cleared up a number of errors or
inaccuracies in early accounts, including at least one that came from his
own office:


There were no loose, plastic chairs on the Ethan Allen. All passengers were
seated on park bench-type seats, bolted to the deck of the 40-year-old,
40-foot vessel.


There was no fire or explosion as three eyewitnesses reported. The large
plume of smoke that rose as the boat capsized was the result of the cold
lake water pouring onto the hot inboard diesel that propelled the boat.


Although intitial reports blamed the wake of a larger vessel, the Mohican,
for flipping the boat, it appears that it was nowhere near the Ethan Allen.
The sheriff said the Mohican had been plying the lake for 90 years and the
Ethan Allen since 1979, with no prior incident.


The operator of the Ethan Allen was not turning the vessel to shore when it
capsized. He was turning it, perhaps as much as 40 degrees, in order to
bring the vessel's bow into the waves and wakes.



What Are the Facts?

"He told us there was some wave action that he was trying to combat,"
Cleveland said. He said that the operator, 74-year-old Richard Paris, is
both fully qualified and fully able to pilot the boat. He has cooperated
with the investigation.


The sheriff said he and his department, with the assistance of the New York
State Police, have interviewed the 27 survivors but not all of the
eyewitnesses. The majority of the survivors say the vessel listed to the
left (port) before capsizing. Several also reported the bow was down before
the capsize.


The sheriff cautioned that eyewitness accounts can often be inaccurate,
including the three witnesses in this case who said they saw fire and heard
an explosion.


The Ethan Allen was in 67 feet of water when it hit bottom, and was about
500 to 600 feet off Cramer's Point.

Here's more, from ABC news:
Oct. 4, 2005 - The first 911 call to the Warren County Sheriff's Office
came in at 2:54:33, a hysterical woman, shouting for help.

Within "five or six to 10 minutes," rescue boats had arrived at the scene,
but the worst inland water disaster in U.S. history had already claimed the
lives of 20 elderly people. Their deaths, according to medical reports, were
caused by hypothermia, drowning and aggravation of pre-existing medical
conditions.


a.. Audio: Lake George 911 Call




The response time for the official rescue boats is well above any
expectation, and by the time those boats arrived, civilian vessels had
already begun pulling people from the water.

Clearing Up Rumors

According to Sheriff Larry Cleveland, who examined the toar boat "Ethan
Allen" on Monday, there was no immediately visible evidence of a
catastrophic failure. Cleveland cleared up a number of errors or
inaccuracies in early accounts, including at least one that came from his
own office:


There were no loose, plastic chairs on the Ethan Allen. All passengers were
seated on park bench-type seats, bolted to the deck of the 40-year-old,
40-foot vessel.


There was no fire or explosion as three eyewitnesses reported. The large
plume of smoke that rose as the boat capsized was the result of the cold
lake water pouring onto the hot inboard diesel that propelled the boat.


Although intitial reports blamed the wake of a larger vessel, the Mohican,
for flipping the boat, it appears that it was nowhere near the Ethan Allen.
The sheriff said the Mohican had been plying the lake for 90 years and the
Ethan Allen since 1979, with no prior incident.


The operator of the Ethan Allen was not turning the vessel to shore when it
capsized. He was turning it, perhaps as much as 40 degrees, in order to
bring the vessel's bow into the waves and wakes.



What Are the Facts?

"He told us there was some wave action that he was trying to combat,"
Cleveland said. He said that the operator, 74-year-old Richard Paris, is
both fully qualified and fully able to pilot the boat. He has cooperated
with the investigation.


The sheriff said he and his department, with the assistance of the New York
State Police, have interviewed the 27 survivors but not all of the
eyewitnesses. The majority of the survivors say the vessel listed to the
left (port) before capsizing. Several also reported the bow was down before
the capsize.


The sheriff cautioned that eyewitness accounts can often be inaccurate,
including the three witnesses in this case who said they saw fire and heard
an explosion.


The Ethan Allen was in 67 feet of water when it hit bottom, and was about
500 to 600 feet off Cramer's Point.

Here's more, from ABC news:
Oct. 4, 2005 - The first 911 call to the Warren County Sheriff's Office
came in at 2:54:33, a hysterical woman, shouting for help.

Within "five or six to 10 minutes," rescue boats had arrived at the scene,
but the worst inland water disaster in U.S. history had already claimed the
lives of 20 elderly people. Their deaths, according to medical reports, were
caused by hypothermia, drowning and aggravation of pre-existing medical
conditions.


a.. Audio: Lake George 911 Call




The response time for the official rescue boats is well above any
expectation, and by the time those boats arrived, civilian vessels had
already begun pulling people from the water.

Clearing Up Rumors

According to Sheriff Larry Cleveland, who examined the toar boat "Ethan
Allen" on Monday, there was no immediately visible evidence of a
catastrophic failure. Cleveland cleared up a number of errors or
inaccuracies in early accounts, including at least one that came from his
own office:


There were no loose, plastic chairs on the Ethan Allen. All passengers were
seated on park bench-type seats, bolted to the deck of the 40-year-old,
40-foot vessel.


There was no fire or explosion as three eyewitnesses reported. The large
plume of smoke that rose as the boat capsized was the result of the cold
lake water pouring onto the hot inboard diesel that propelled the boat.


Although intitial reports blamed the wake of a larger vessel, the Mohican,
for flipping the boat, it appears that it was nowhere near the Ethan Allen.
The sheriff said the Mohican had been plying the lake for 90 years and the
Ethan Allen since 1979, with no prior incident.


The operator of the Ethan Allen was not turning the vessel to shore when it
capsized. He was turning it, perhaps as much as 40 degrees, in order to
bring the vessel's bow into the waves and wakes.



What Are the Facts?

"He told us there was some wave action that he was trying to combat,"
Cleveland said. He said that the operator, 74-year-old Richard Paris, is
both fully qualified and fully able to pilot the boat. He has cooperated
with the investigation.


The sheriff said he and his department, with the assistance of the New York
State Police, have interviewed the 27 survivors but not all of the
eyewitnesses. The majority of the survivors say the vessel listed to the
left (port) before capsizing. Several also reported the bow was down before
the capsize.


The sheriff cautioned that eyewitness accounts can often be inaccurate,
including the three witnesses in this case who said they saw fire and heard
an explosion.


The Ethan Allen was in 67 feet of water when it hit bottom, and was about
500 to 600 feet off Cramer's Point.

Here's more, from ABC news:
Oct. 4, 2005 - The first 911 call to the Warren County Sheriff's Office
came in at 2:54:33, a hysterical woman, shouting for help.

Within "five or six to 10 minutes," rescue boats had arrived at the scene,
but the worst inland water disaster in U.S. history had already claimed the
lives of 20 elderly people. Their deaths, according to medical reports, were
caused by hypothermia, drowning and aggravation of pre-existing medical
conditions.


a.. Audio: Lake George 911 Call




The response time for the official rescue boats is well above any
expectation, and by the time those boats arrived, civilian vessels had
already begun pulling people from the water.

Clearing Up Rumors

According to Sheriff Larry Cleveland, who examined the toar boat "Ethan
Allen" on Monday, there was no immediately visible evidence of a
catastrophic failure. Cleveland cleared up a number of errors or
inaccuracies in early accounts, including at least one that came from his
own office:


There were no loose, plastic chairs on the Ethan Allen. All passengers were
seated on park bench-type seats, bolted to the deck of the 40-year-old,
40-foot vessel.


There was no fire or explosion as three eyewitnesses reported. The large
plume of smoke that rose as the boat capsized was the result of the cold
lake water pouring onto the hot inboard diesel that propelled the boat.


Although intitial reports blamed the wake of a larger vessel, the Mohican,
for flipping the boat, it appears that it was nowhere near the Ethan Allen.
The sheriff said the Mohican had been plying the lake for 90 years and the
Ethan Allen since 1979, with no prior incident.


The operator of the Ethan Allen was not turning the vessel to shore when it
capsized. He was turning it, perhaps as much as 40 degrees, in order to
bring the vessel's bow into the waves and wakes.



What Are the Facts?

"He told us there was some wave action that he was trying to combat,"
Cleveland said. He said that the operator, 74-year-old Richard Paris, is
both fully qualified and fully able to pilot the boat. He has cooperated
with the investigation.


The sheriff said he and his department, with the assistance of the New York
State Police, have interviewed the 27 survivors but not all of the
eyewitnesses. The majority of the survivors say the vessel listed to the
left (port) before capsizing. Several also reported the bow was down before
the capsize.


The sheriff cautioned that eyewitness accounts can often be inaccurate,
including the three witnesses in this case who said they saw fire and heard
an explosion.


The Ethan Allen was in 67 feet of water when it hit bottom, and was about
500 to 600 feet off Cramer's Point.