wrote in message
ps.com...

Bert Robbins wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


Chuckie is spewing the typical brain dead liebral class warfare
crap.
The vast majority of people do not stay in one income bracket
throughout
their lives.

Sounds a bit like "let them eat cake."

No, it sounds like let's teach them to bake their own cake so that they
can
feed themselves.

You are right about that. The middle class is going the way of the
passenger pigeon. Yes, yes, a few of the former middle class are moving
into the ranks of the privileged-(something to cheer about in the right
wing) but most of the people leaving the middle class are worse off now
than they were a decade ago.

Then we need to do more to teach them how to work hard and earn more
money
so that they can move up the ladder rather than sliding down the ladder
under the weight of good intentions.


Sounds very noble, but that flies in the face of a long-proven reality.
The privileged class has a specific interest in maintaining or even
increasing the number of poor and desperate people in this country
while at the same time decreasing any public infrastructure or funding
to relieve some of the hardships suffered by the poor. It's called
labor force. We want lotsof people who will work as cheaply as
possible. In fact, when our own poor people ask for a minimum wage job
the privileged class declares minimum wage "too much" to pay and seeks
out a foreign labor force even more poor, more desperate, and more
willing to work for a handful of rice a day.

It went on in the last great flood down south in the 20's, and it's
still going on today. During the flood where VP Hoover served as the
government emergency coordinator, there were several thousand people
stranded on a levee. Times being as they were in the 20's, the
government naturally evacuated all the white people first. When the
government began evacuating the poor black folks on the levee, local
business leaders pressured the administration to stop. They said that
if the black people were even temporarily relocated, they would have a
hard time rebuilding their agricultural labor force. In the end, an
encampment of poor folks rose on that levee that was something like a
mile and a half from end to end. The government hauled food out to
them, but refused to take any of them off the levee. IIRC, it took a
couple of weeks for the water to recede to where the poor people could
get off on their own.

Under your proposed social solution, perhpas we should have simply
dropped a handful of lumber and a drawing of a raft onto the
levee/island? The industrious
folks could have built a raft and escaped- oh, but wait, no lumber and
no drawing of a raft for these folks- it would have worked against the
interests of
the privileged class for any of these people to relocate out of the
area. The economic value of somebody willing to or forced to work for
only the tiniest fraction of the value produced in a work day is very
high, and such an "asset" shouldn't be squandered.

Times have changed, but human nature hasn't.

It's tough to demand that somebody pull themselves up by the bootstraps
when they don't even have any boots, let alone a pair with straps.


==========================
Sounds very noble, but that flies in the face of a long-proven reality.
The privileged class has a specific interest in maintaining or even
increasing the number of poor and desperate people in this country
while at the same time decreasing any public infrastructure or funding
to relieve some of the hardships suffered by the poor.
==============================

What a crock of bull.

Everyone has the opportunity for an education. Everyone. Those choosing
not to take that road make that choice on their own.

And if you decide to settle in life for a menial job, there are plenty out
there offering far more than minimum wage.

My daughter is making $10/hour at a part time job she has while attending
OSU.

My son made $9/hour painting houses as a summer job.

Both jobs pay/paid well above minimum wage.

My son earns $10-$12 an hour, working part time while attending school.
This is not high skilled labor, just someone who can use basic knowledge and
analytical skills to solve problems.


"*JimH*" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
ps.com...

Bert Robbins wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


Chuckie is spewing the typical brain dead liebral class warfare
crap.
The vast majority of people do not stay in one income bracket
throughout
their lives.

Sounds a bit like "let them eat cake."

No, it sounds like let's teach them to bake their own cake so that they
can
feed themselves.

You are right about that. The middle class is going the way of the
passenger pigeon. Yes, yes, a few of the former middle class are
moving
into the ranks of the privileged-(something to cheer about in the
right
wing) but most of the people leaving the middle class are worse off
now
than they were a decade ago.

Then we need to do more to teach them how to work hard and earn more
money
so that they can move up the ladder rather than sliding down the ladder
under the weight of good intentions.


Sounds very noble, but that flies in the face of a long-proven reality.
The privileged class has a specific interest in maintaining or even
increasing the number of poor and desperate people in this country
while at the same time decreasing any public infrastructure or funding
to relieve some of the hardships suffered by the poor. It's called
labor force. We want lotsof people who will work as cheaply as
possible. In fact, when our own poor people ask for a minimum wage job
the privileged class declares minimum wage "too much" to pay and seeks
out a foreign labor force even more poor, more desperate, and more
willing to work for a handful of rice a day.

It went on in the last great flood down south in the 20's, and it's
still going on today. During the flood where VP Hoover served as the
government emergency coordinator, there were several thousand people
stranded on a levee. Times being as they were in the 20's, the
government naturally evacuated all the white people first. When the
government began evacuating the poor black folks on the levee, local
business leaders pressured the administration to stop. They said that
if the black people were even temporarily relocated, they would have a
hard time rebuilding their agricultural labor force. In the end, an
encampment of poor folks rose on that levee that was something like a
mile and a half from end to end. The government hauled food out to
them, but refused to take any of them off the levee. IIRC, it took a
couple of weeks for the water to recede to where the poor people could
get off on their own.

Under your proposed social solution, perhpas we should have simply
dropped a handful of lumber and a drawing of a raft onto the
levee/island? The industrious
folks could have built a raft and escaped- oh, but wait, no lumber and
no drawing of a raft for these folks- it would have worked against the
interests of
the privileged class for any of these people to relocate out of the
area. The economic value of somebody willing to or forced to work for
only the tiniest fraction of the value produced in a work day is very
high, and such an "asset" shouldn't be squandered.

Times have changed, but human nature hasn't.

It's tough to demand that somebody pull themselves up by the bootstraps
when they don't even have any boots, let alone a pair with straps.


==========================
Sounds very noble, but that flies in the face of a long-proven reality.
The privileged class has a specific interest in maintaining or even
increasing the number of poor and desperate people in this country
while at the same time decreasing any public infrastructure or funding
to relieve some of the hardships suffered by the poor.
==============================

What a crock of bull.

Everyone has the opportunity for an education. Everyone. Those choosing
not to take that road make that choice on their own.

And if you decide to settle in life for a menial job, there are plenty out
there offering far more than minimum wage.

My daughter is making $10/hour at a part time job she has while attending
OSU.

My son made $9/hour painting houses as a summer job.

Both jobs pay/paid well above minimum wage.

"*JimH*" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
ps.com...

Bert Robbins wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...


Chuckie is spewing the typical brain dead liebral class warfare
crap.
The vast majority of people do not stay in one income bracket
throughout
their lives.

Sounds a bit like "let them eat cake."

No, it sounds like let's teach them to bake their own cake so that
they
can
feed themselves.

You are right about that. The middle class is going the way of the
passenger pigeon. Yes, yes, a few of the former middle class are
moving
into the ranks of the privileged-(something to cheer about in the
right
wing) but most of the people leaving the middle class are worse off
now
than they were a decade ago.

Then we need to do more to teach them how to work hard and earn more
money
so that they can move up the ladder rather than sliding down the
ladder
under the weight of good intentions.


Sounds very noble, but that flies in the face of a long-proven reality.
The privileged class has a specific interest in maintaining or even
increasing the number of poor and desperate people in this country
while at the same time decreasing any public infrastructure or funding
to relieve some of the hardships suffered by the poor. It's called
labor force. We want lotsof people who will work as cheaply as
possible. In fact, when our own poor people ask for a minimum wage job
the privileged class declares minimum wage "too much" to pay and seeks
out a foreign labor force even more poor, more desperate, and more
willing to work for a handful of rice a day.

It went on in the last great flood down south in the 20's, and it's
still going on today. During the flood where VP Hoover served as the
government emergency coordinator, there were several thousand people
stranded on a levee. Times being as they were in the 20's, the
government naturally evacuated all the white people first. When the
government began evacuating the poor black folks on the levee, local
business leaders pressured the administration to stop. They said that
if the black people were even temporarily relocated, they would have a
hard time rebuilding their agricultural labor force. In the end, an
encampment of poor folks rose on that levee that was something like a
mile and a half from end to end. The government hauled food out to
them, but refused to take any of them off the levee. IIRC, it took a
couple of weeks for the water to recede to where the poor people could
get off on their own.

Under your proposed social solution, perhpas we should have simply
dropped a handful of lumber and a drawing of a raft onto the
levee/island? The industrious
folks could have built a raft and escaped- oh, but wait, no lumber and
no drawing of a raft for these folks- it would have worked against the
interests of
the privileged class for any of these people to relocate out of the
area. The economic value of somebody willing to or forced to work for
only the tiniest fraction of the value produced in a work day is very
high, and such an "asset" shouldn't be squandered.

Times have changed, but human nature hasn't.

It's tough to demand that somebody pull themselves up by the bootstraps
when they don't even have any boots, let alone a pair with straps.


==========================
Sounds very noble, but that flies in the face of a long-proven reality.
The privileged class has a specific interest in maintaining or even
increasing the number of poor and desperate people in this country
while at the same time decreasing any public infrastructure or funding
to relieve some of the hardships suffered by the poor.
==============================

What a crock of bull.

Everyone has the opportunity for an education. Everyone. Those
choosing
not to take that road make that choice on their own.

And if you decide to settle in life for a menial job, there are plenty
out
there offering far more than minimum wage.

My daughter is making $10/hour at a part time job she has while
attending
OSU.

My son made $9/hour painting houses as a summer job.

Both jobs pay/paid well above minimum wage.

Chuckie is just your typical socialist liebral that wants equal outcome
not equal opportunity......regardless of the cost.

..

My daughter is making $10/hour at a part time job she has while attending
OSU.

My son made $9/hour painting houses as a summer job.

Both jobs pay/paid well above minimum wage.


Thank yoy for reinforcing my point.

Take your son, as an example. He was working at a skilled trade, and
paid at a rate that would gross him $18,000 a year if he worked 50
40-hour weeks.

It's a fairly safe assumption that your son got very few, (possibly no)
fringe benefits as part of the deal- so the employer's cost was
probably under $10 an hour with FICA, your state UE tax, etc.

What sort of lifestyle would 18,000 a year provide anybody?

Let's figure that after very minimal deductions for income tax and
Social Security, a full-time house painter in your community takes home
$1350 a month from a $1500 gross. If you have a state income tax, the
amount could be less.
(in reality, I bet there is very little exterior house painting done in
your climate for several months each winter, so the house painter would
be laid off and earning $zero- or probably working at whatever menial
task was available- for part of the year.)

From the $1350, deduct a flophouse rent. What is that in your area?
Let's say
$450 to rent a dirty little apartment in a questionable neighborhood or
to split rent with a buddy on a decent place. Down to $900 bucks.
Employer doesn't provide transportation to the job site so the
housepainter needs a car.
Figure $100 a month (average) in repairs to a wretched old beater and
50 gallons of gas per month at $3, and you're down to $650. Car
insurance would be another $50 a month, but the housepainter will drive
around without because he's got nothing to lose in a lawsuit and he
can't afford to take $50 out of his $650. The housepainter does need to
keep the lights on in his crumby little apartment and keep his cell
phone going so he can take calls from the boss telling him where to go
and paint the following day, so let's figure he keeps most of the
lights off most of the time and gets by for $100 a month in utilities.
Down to $550. A housepainter is going to burn up a lot of calories in a
day, so there will be some grocery expense each week. I think a single
guy can get by on about $7-8 a day if he eats a lot of rice and beans
and maybe some cheap ground beef. Down to $300 a month, so out of the
remaning $75 a week the housepainter needs to be totally responsible
for all his medical and dental bills, maybe put aside something so he
can take a college class once in a while and become better educated,
gawd forbid buy a ticket to a movie or a ballgame or some other
frivolous pastime once in a while, keep shoes on his feet and clothes
on his back, and, of course, save for retirement.

I wish him good luck.

Maybe after 40-50 years he can save up enough capital to start his own
business. Oh, wait.......he'll be 70 years old.......never mind......

Why can an employer, billing you son's time at $50-60 an hour or more,
get by with sharing only $10 (including taxes) of that $50 or $60 with
your son? It is precisely because that $9 wage *is* well above minimum.
Despite the fact that nobody can live any sort of realistic life on
$1500 a month these days, the fact that some jobs pay even less makes
it easy to fill a job like this with somebody trying to rise by their
bootstraps from abject and brutal poverty to a level of bare economic
subsistence.

Betcha a buck your son's employer thinks minimum wage is far too high,
as he feels the need to pay a couple of bucks an hour more in order to
attract adequate help. Betcha another buck he feels the "market" should
set wages, that minimum wage distorts the market, and that he thinks
his labor "costs" would be less in a "free market" environment. Few
people objecting to the minimum wage feel that it is artificially
*lowering* the cost of labor.

wrote in message
oups.com...

.

My daughter is making $10/hour at a part time job she has while attending
OSU.

My son made $9/hour painting houses as a summer job.

Both jobs pay/paid well above minimum wage.


Thank yoy for reinforcing my point.

Take your son, as an example. He was working at a skilled trade, and
paid at a rate that would gross him $18,000 a year if he worked 50
40-hour weeks.

Chuck, the kid is in school and isn't going to make painting his life's
endeavor so why should he be paid $25 an hour with just a few months
experience?

The rest of your "progressive" clap trap isn't worth reading.

[ SNIP ]

wrote in message
oups.com...

.

My daughter is making $10/hour at a part time job she has while attending
OSU.

My son made $9/hour painting houses as a summer job.

Both jobs pay/paid well above minimum wage.


Thank yoy for reinforcing my point.

Take your son, as an example. He was working at a skilled trade, and
paid at a rate that would gross him $18,000 a year if he worked 50
40-hour weeks.

It's a fairly safe assumption that your son got very few, (possibly no)
fringe benefits as part of the deal- so the employer's cost was
probably under $10 an hour with FICA, your state UE tax, etc.

What sort of lifestyle would 18,000 a year provide anybody?

Let's figure that after very minimal deductions for income tax and
Social Security, a full-time house painter in your community takes home
$1350 a month from a $1500 gross. If you have a state income tax, the
amount could be less.
(in reality, I bet there is very little exterior house painting done in
your climate for several months each winter, so the house painter would
be laid off and earning $zero- or probably working at whatever menial
task was available- for part of the year.)

From the $1350, deduct a flophouse rent. What is that in your area?
Let's say
$450 to rent a dirty little apartment in a questionable neighborhood or
to split rent with a buddy on a decent place. Down to $900 bucks.
Employer doesn't provide transportation to the job site so the
housepainter needs a car.
Figure $100 a month (average) in repairs to a wretched old beater and
50 gallons of gas per month at $3, and you're down to $650. Car
insurance would be another $50 a month, but the housepainter will drive
around without because he's got nothing to lose in a lawsuit and he
can't afford to take $50 out of his $650. The housepainter does need to
keep the lights on in his crumby little apartment and keep his cell
phone going so he can take calls from the boss telling him where to go
and paint the following day, so let's figure he keeps most of the
lights off most of the time and gets by for $100 a month in utilities.
Down to $550. A housepainter is going to burn up a lot of calories in a
day, so there will be some grocery expense each week. I think a single
guy can get by on about $7-8 a day if he eats a lot of rice and beans
and maybe some cheap ground beef. Down to $300 a month, so out of the
remaning $75 a week the housepainter needs to be totally responsible
for all his medical and dental bills, maybe put aside something so he
can take a college class once in a while and become better educated,
gawd forbid buy a ticket to a movie or a ballgame or some other
frivolous pastime once in a while, keep shoes on his feet and clothes
on his back, and, of course, save for retirement.

I wish him good luck.

Maybe after 40-50 years he can save up enough capital to start his own
business. Oh, wait.......he'll be 70 years old.......never mind......

Why can an employer, billing you son's time at $50-60 an hour or more,
get by with sharing only $10 (including taxes) of that $50 or $60 with
your son? It is precisely because that $9 wage *is* well above minimum.
Despite the fact that nobody can live any sort of realistic life on
$1500 a month these days, the fact that some jobs pay even less makes
it easy to fill a job like this with somebody trying to rise by their
bootstraps from abject and brutal poverty to a level of bare economic
subsistence.

Betcha a buck your son's employer thinks minimum wage is far too high,
as he feels the need to pay a couple of bucks an hour more in order to
attract adequate help. Betcha another buck he feels the "market" should
set wages, that minimum wage distorts the market, and that he thinks
his labor "costs" would be less in a "free market" environment. Few
people objecting to the minimum wage feel that it is artificially
*lowering* the cost of labor.



Pssst, Chuck............he is in high school. This is not a career but a
summer job. If he comes back next year he will be making $10/hour. The
3rd summer brings $12/hour. Not bad for a non skilled summer job. ;-)

And you made my point. If one chooses to skip an education in lieu of
taking a $9/hour job painting houses, that is *their* choice.

Now what is that saying about making your own bed?

"*JimH*" wrote in message
. ..

wrote in message
oups.com...

.

My daughter is making $10/hour at a part time job she has while
attending
OSU.

My son made $9/hour painting houses as a summer job.

Both jobs pay/paid well above minimum wage.


Thank yoy for reinforcing my point.

Take your son, as an example. He was working at a skilled trade, and
paid at a rate that would gross him $18,000 a year if he worked 50
40-hour weeks.

It's a fairly safe assumption that your son got very few, (possibly no)
fringe benefits as part of the deal- so the employer's cost was
probably under $10 an hour with FICA, your state UE tax, etc.

What sort of lifestyle would 18,000 a year provide anybody?

Let's figure that after very minimal deductions for income tax and
Social Security, a full-time house painter in your community takes home
$1350 a month from a $1500 gross. If you have a state income tax, the
amount could be less.
(in reality, I bet there is very little exterior house painting done in
your climate for several months each winter, so the house painter would
be laid off and earning $zero- or probably working at whatever menial
task was available- for part of the year.)

From the $1350, deduct a flophouse rent. What is that in your area?
Let's say
$450 to rent a dirty little apartment in a questionable neighborhood or
to split rent with a buddy on a decent place. Down to $900 bucks.
Employer doesn't provide transportation to the job site so the
housepainter needs a car.
Figure $100 a month (average) in repairs to a wretched old beater and
50 gallons of gas per month at $3, and you're down to $650. Car
insurance would be another $50 a month, but the housepainter will drive
around without because he's got nothing to lose in a lawsuit and he
can't afford to take $50 out of his $650. The housepainter does need to
keep the lights on in his crumby little apartment and keep his cell
phone going so he can take calls from the boss telling him where to go
and paint the following day, so let's figure he keeps most of the
lights off most of the time and gets by for $100 a month in utilities.
Down to $550. A housepainter is going to burn up a lot of calories in a
day, so there will be some grocery expense each week. I think a single
guy can get by on about $7-8 a day if he eats a lot of rice and beans
and maybe some cheap ground beef. Down to $300 a month, so out of the
remaning $75 a week the housepainter needs to be totally responsible
for all his medical and dental bills, maybe put aside something so he
can take a college class once in a while and become better educated,
gawd forbid buy a ticket to a movie or a ballgame or some other
frivolous pastime once in a while, keep shoes on his feet and clothes
on his back, and, of course, save for retirement.

I wish him good luck.

Maybe after 40-50 years he can save up enough capital to start his own
business. Oh, wait.......he'll be 70 years old.......never mind......

Why can an employer, billing you son's time at $50-60 an hour or more,
get by with sharing only $10 (including taxes) of that $50 or $60 with
your son? It is precisely because that $9 wage *is* well above minimum.
Despite the fact that nobody can live any sort of realistic life on
$1500 a month these days, the fact that some jobs pay even less makes
it easy to fill a job like this with somebody trying to rise by their
bootstraps from abject and brutal poverty to a level of bare economic
subsistence.

Betcha a buck your son's employer thinks minimum wage is far too high,
as he feels the need to pay a couple of bucks an hour more in order to
attract adequate help. Betcha another buck he feels the "market" should
set wages, that minimum wage distorts the market, and that he thinks
his labor "costs" would be less in a "free market" environment. Few
people objecting to the minimum wage feel that it is artificially
*lowering* the cost of labor.



Pssst, Chuck............he is in high school. This is not a career but a
summer job. If he comes back next year he will be making $10/hour. The
3rd summer brings $12/hour. Not bad for a non skilled summer job. ;-)

And you made my point. If one chooses to skip an education in lieu of
taking a $9/hour job painting houses, that is *their* choice.

Now what is that saying about making your own bed?


Chuckie is full of crap.........he has been blinded by the socialist liebral
mindset.

The whole notion that somehow raising the minimum wage will automatically
raise the lifestyle of people is just horse ****. All it does is creat
inflation, and make outsourcing overseas that more economical.

No one is guaranteed anything in life......a "decent" apartment with no
roomate nor a car, tickets to a ball game etc etc.

Funny thing, I know many people that started their own businesses on a H.S.
education, without saving for 40 years, it is called ambition and hard
work........unlike the liebral slobs that want to sit around and have
guvmint tale care of their every need.

P Fritz wrote:
"*JimH*" wrote in message
. ..

wrote in message
oups.com...

.

My daughter is making $10/hour at a part time job she has while
attending
OSU.

My son made $9/hour painting houses as a summer job.

Both jobs pay/paid well above minimum wage.


Thank yoy for reinforcing my point.

Take your son, as an example. He was working at a skilled trade, and
paid at a rate that would gross him $18,000 a year if he worked 50
40-hour weeks.

It's a fairly safe assumption that your son got very few, (possibly no)
fringe benefits as part of the deal- so the employer's cost was
probably under $10 an hour with FICA, your state UE tax, etc.

What sort of lifestyle would 18,000 a year provide anybody?

Let's figure that after very minimal deductions for income tax and
Social Security, a full-time house painter in your community takes home
$1350 a month from a $1500 gross. If you have a state income tax, the
amount could be less.
(in reality, I bet there is very little exterior house painting done in
your climate for several months each winter, so the house painter would
be laid off and earning $zero- or probably working at whatever menial
task was available- for part of the year.)

From the $1350, deduct a flophouse rent. What is that in your area?
Let's say
$450 to rent a dirty little apartment in a questionable neighborhood or
to split rent with a buddy on a decent place. Down to $900 bucks.
Employer doesn't provide transportation to the job site so the
housepainter needs a car.
Figure $100 a month (average) in repairs to a wretched old beater and
50 gallons of gas per month at $3, and you're down to $650. Car
insurance would be another $50 a month, but the housepainter will drive
around without because he's got nothing to lose in a lawsuit and he
can't afford to take $50 out of his $650. The housepainter does need to
keep the lights on in his crumby little apartment and keep his cell
phone going so he can take calls from the boss telling him where to go
and paint the following day, so let's figure he keeps most of the
lights off most of the time and gets by for $100 a month in utilities.
Down to $550. A housepainter is going to burn up a lot of calories in a
day, so there will be some grocery expense each week. I think a single
guy can get by on about $7-8 a day if he eats a lot of rice and beans
and maybe some cheap ground beef. Down to $300 a month, so out of the
remaning $75 a week the housepainter needs to be totally responsible
for all his medical and dental bills, maybe put aside something so he
can take a college class once in a while and become better educated,
gawd forbid buy a ticket to a movie or a ballgame or some other
frivolous pastime once in a while, keep shoes on his feet and clothes
on his back, and, of course, save for retirement.

I wish him good luck.

Maybe after 40-50 years he can save up enough capital to start his own
business. Oh, wait.......he'll be 70 years old.......never mind......

Why can an employer, billing you son's time at $50-60 an hour or more,
get by with sharing only $10 (including taxes) of that $50 or $60 with
your son? It is precisely because that $9 wage *is* well above minimum.
Despite the fact that nobody can live any sort of realistic life on
$1500 a month these days, the fact that some jobs pay even less makes
it easy to fill a job like this with somebody trying to rise by their
bootstraps from abject and brutal poverty to a level of bare economic
subsistence.

Betcha a buck your son's employer thinks minimum wage is far too high,
as he feels the need to pay a couple of bucks an hour more in order to
attract adequate help. Betcha another buck he feels the "market" should
set wages, that minimum wage distorts the market, and that he thinks
his labor "costs" would be less in a "free market" environment. Few
people objecting to the minimum wage feel that it is artificially
*lowering* the cost of labor.



Pssst, Chuck............he is in high school. This is not a career but a
summer job. If he comes back next year he will be making $10/hour. The
3rd summer brings $12/hour. Not bad for a non skilled summer job. ;-)

And you made my point. If one chooses to skip an education in lieu of
taking a $9/hour job painting houses, that is *their* choice.

Now what is that saying about making your own bed?


Chuckie is full of crap.........he has been blinded by the socialist liebral
mindset.

The whole notion that somehow raising the minimum wage will automatically
raise the lifestyle of people is just horse ****. All it does is creat
inflation, and make outsourcing overseas that more economical.


My point was that business has a vested interest in maintaining a
certain number of poor and desperate people who will work for mini-wage
or less, not that mini-wage should be raised. That would be another
discussion.




No one is guaranteed anything in life......a "decent" apartment with no
roomate nor a car, tickets to a ball game etc etc.

Funny thing, I know many people that started their own businesses on a H.S.
education, without saving for 40 years, it is called ambition and hard
work........unlike the liebral slobs that want to sit around and have
guvmint tale care of their every need.

Chuck ,
You are absolutely incorrect. It is in the businesses best interest to make
sure his cost as good or better than his competitors. It is in the
businesses best interest that his employees spend lots of money expanding
the economy.

You like to look at the world as a us vs. them. There are many people who
believe all negotiations can be a win win situation.


wrote in message
oups.com...

P Fritz wrote:
"*JimH*" wrote in message
. ..

wrote in message
oups.com...

.

My daughter is making $10/hour at a part time job she has while
attending
OSU.

My son made $9/hour painting houses as a summer job.

Both jobs pay/paid well above minimum wage.


Thank yoy for reinforcing my point.

Take your son, as an example. He was working at a skilled trade, and
paid at a rate that would gross him $18,000 a year if he worked 50
40-hour weeks.

It's a fairly safe assumption that your son got very few, (possibly
no)
fringe benefits as part of the deal- so the employer's cost was
probably under $10 an hour with FICA, your state UE tax, etc.

What sort of lifestyle would 18,000 a year provide anybody?

Let's figure that after very minimal deductions for income tax and
Social Security, a full-time house painter in your community takes
home
$1350 a month from a $1500 gross. If you have a state income tax, the
amount could be less.
(in reality, I bet there is very little exterior house painting done
in
your climate for several months each winter, so the house painter
would
be laid off and earning $zero- or probably working at whatever menial
task was available- for part of the year.)

From the $1350, deduct a flophouse rent. What is that in your area?
Let's say
$450 to rent a dirty little apartment in a questionable neighborhood
or
to split rent with a buddy on a decent place. Down to $900 bucks.
Employer doesn't provide transportation to the job site so the
housepainter needs a car.
Figure $100 a month (average) in repairs to a wretched old beater and
50 gallons of gas per month at $3, and you're down to $650. Car
insurance would be another $50 a month, but the housepainter will
drive
around without because he's got nothing to lose in a lawsuit and he
can't afford to take $50 out of his $650. The housepainter does need
to
keep the lights on in his crumby little apartment and keep his cell
phone going so he can take calls from the boss telling him where to
go
and paint the following day, so let's figure he keeps most of the
lights off most of the time and gets by for $100 a month in
utilities.
Down to $550. A housepainter is going to burn up a lot of calories in
a
day, so there will be some grocery expense each week. I think a
single
guy can get by on about $7-8 a day if he eats a lot of rice and beans
and maybe some cheap ground beef. Down to $300 a month, so out of the
remaning $75 a week the housepainter needs to be totally responsible
for all his medical and dental bills, maybe put aside something so he
can take a college class once in a while and become better educated,
gawd forbid buy a ticket to a movie or a ballgame or some other
frivolous pastime once in a while, keep shoes on his feet and clothes
on his back, and, of course, save for retirement.

I wish him good luck.

Maybe after 40-50 years he can save up enough capital to start his
own
business. Oh, wait.......he'll be 70 years old.......never mind......

Why can an employer, billing you son's time at $50-60 an hour or
more,
get by with sharing only $10 (including taxes) of that $50 or $60
with
your son? It is precisely because that $9 wage *is* well above
minimum.
Despite the fact that nobody can live any sort of realistic life on
$1500 a month these days, the fact that some jobs pay even less makes
it easy to fill a job like this with somebody trying to rise by their
bootstraps from abject and brutal poverty to a level of bare economic
subsistence.

Betcha a buck your son's employer thinks minimum wage is far too
high,
as he feels the need to pay a couple of bucks an hour more in order
to
attract adequate help. Betcha another buck he feels the "market"
should
set wages, that minimum wage distorts the market, and that he thinks
his labor "costs" would be less in a "free market" environment. Few
people objecting to the minimum wage feel that it is artificially
*lowering* the cost of labor.



Pssst, Chuck............he is in high school. This is not a career but
a
summer job. If he comes back next year he will be making $10/hour.
The
3rd summer brings $12/hour. Not bad for a non skilled summer job. ;-)

And you made my point. If one chooses to skip an education in lieu of
taking a $9/hour job painting houses, that is *their* choice.

Now what is that saying about making your own bed?


Chuckie is full of crap.........he has been blinded by the socialist
liebral
mindset.

The whole notion that somehow raising the minimum wage will automatically
raise the lifestyle of people is just horse ****. All it does is creat
inflation, and make outsourcing overseas that more economical.


My point was that business has a vested interest in maintaining a
certain number of poor and desperate people who will work for mini-wage
or less, not that mini-wage should be raised. That would be another
discussion.




No one is guaranteed anything in life......a "decent" apartment with no
roomate nor a car, tickets to a ball game etc etc.

Funny thing, I know many people that started their own businesses on a
H.S.
education, without saving for 40 years, it is called ambition and hard
work........unlike the liebral slobs that want to sit around and have
guvmint tale care of their every need.

Chuck,
This is not an attack on you, but I think your view of the world is clouded
by your personal experiences as a used car and used boat salesman. In those
professions it is a us vs. them mentality. Most businessman take a long
term look at the business and their employees. If you didn't do that with
your employees shame on you. If you did, why do you think other businessman
don't?


"Starbuck" wrote in message
...
Chuck ,
You are absolutely incorrect. It is in the businesses best interest to
make sure his cost as good or better than his competitors. It is in the
businesses best interest that his employees spend lots of money expanding
the economy.

You like to look at the world as a us vs. them. There are many people who
believe all negotiations can be a win win situation.


wrote in message
oups.com...

P Fritz wrote:
"*JimH*" wrote in message
. ..

wrote in message
oups.com...

.

My daughter is making $10/hour at a part time job she has while
attending
OSU.

My son made $9/hour painting houses as a summer job.

Both jobs pay/paid well above minimum wage.


Thank yoy for reinforcing my point.

Take your son, as an example. He was working at a skilled trade, and
paid at a rate that would gross him $18,000 a year if he worked 50
40-hour weeks.

It's a fairly safe assumption that your son got very few, (possibly
no)
fringe benefits as part of the deal- so the employer's cost was
probably under $10 an hour with FICA, your state UE tax, etc.

What sort of lifestyle would 18,000 a year provide anybody?

Let's figure that after very minimal deductions for income tax and
Social Security, a full-time house painter in your community takes
home
$1350 a month from a $1500 gross. If you have a state income tax,
the
amount could be less.
(in reality, I bet there is very little exterior house painting done
in
your climate for several months each winter, so the house painter
would
be laid off and earning $zero- or probably working at whatever
menial
task was available- for part of the year.)

From the $1350, deduct a flophouse rent. What is that in your area?
Let's say
$450 to rent a dirty little apartment in a questionable neighborhood
or
to split rent with a buddy on a decent place. Down to $900 bucks.
Employer doesn't provide transportation to the job site so the
housepainter needs a car.
Figure $100 a month (average) in repairs to a wretched old beater
and
50 gallons of gas per month at $3, and you're down to $650. Car
insurance would be another $50 a month, but the housepainter will
drive
around without because he's got nothing to lose in a lawsuit and he
can't afford to take $50 out of his $650. The housepainter does need
to
keep the lights on in his crumby little apartment and keep his cell
phone going so he can take calls from the boss telling him where to
go
and paint the following day, so let's figure he keeps most of the
lights off most of the time and gets by for $100 a month in
utilities.
Down to $550. A housepainter is going to burn up a lot of calories
in a
day, so there will be some grocery expense each week. I think a
single
guy can get by on about $7-8 a day if he eats a lot of rice and
beans
and maybe some cheap ground beef. Down to $300 a month, so out of
the
remaning $75 a week the housepainter needs to be totally responsible
for all his medical and dental bills, maybe put aside something so
he
can take a college class once in a while and become better educated,
gawd forbid buy a ticket to a movie or a ballgame or some other
frivolous pastime once in a while, keep shoes on his feet and
clothes
on his back, and, of course, save for retirement.

I wish him good luck.

Maybe after 40-50 years he can save up enough capital to start his
own
business. Oh, wait.......he'll be 70 years old.......never
mind......

Why can an employer, billing you son's time at $50-60 an hour or
more,
get by with sharing only $10 (including taxes) of that $50 or $60
with
your son? It is precisely because that $9 wage *is* well above
minimum.
Despite the fact that nobody can live any sort of realistic life on
$1500 a month these days, the fact that some jobs pay even less
makes
it easy to fill a job like this with somebody trying to rise by
their
bootstraps from abject and brutal poverty to a level of bare
economic
subsistence.

Betcha a buck your son's employer thinks minimum wage is far too
high,
as he feels the need to pay a couple of bucks an hour more in order
to
attract adequate help. Betcha another buck he feels the "market"
should
set wages, that minimum wage distorts the market, and that he thinks
his labor "costs" would be less in a "free market" environment. Few
people objecting to the minimum wage feel that it is artificially
*lowering* the cost of labor.



Pssst, Chuck............he is in high school. This is not a career
but a
summer job. If he comes back next year he will be making $10/hour.
The
3rd summer brings $12/hour. Not bad for a non skilled summer job.
;-)

And you made my point. If one chooses to skip an education in lieu of
taking a $9/hour job painting houses, that is *their* choice.

Now what is that saying about making your own bed?


Chuckie is full of crap.........he has been blinded by the socialist
liebral
mindset.

The whole notion that somehow raising the minimum wage will
automatically
raise the lifestyle of people is just horse ****. All it does is creat
inflation, and make outsourcing overseas that more economical.


My point was that business has a vested interest in maintaining a
certain number of poor and desperate people who will work for mini-wage
or less, not that mini-wage should be raised. That would be another
discussion.




No one is guaranteed anything in life......a "decent" apartment with no
roomate nor a car, tickets to a ball game etc etc.

Funny thing, I know many people that started their own businesses on a
H.S.
education, without saving for 40 years, it is called ambition and hard
work........unlike the liebral slobs that want to sit around and have
guvmint tale care of their every need.