"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


A Bully of Bunnies!

What's your problem with rototillers? They make gardening much easier. You
can rent a commercial grade tiller down here for about $35 for a day, and
that's enough time to turn over the dirt for really large garden.


For a number of reasons.

1) You're not supposed to turn over the soil. The soil exists in definite
layers. The layer at the top BELONGS at the top, not buried or mixed with
the layer that's a foot deeper. It contains more of the microorganisms that
make organic gardening work so well. If you screw it up, it can take 2-3
seasons to recover, and there's NO way to speed up the process using soil
amendments.

2) If you're making new beds where there's now some lawn, the goal is to
remove the turf, not chop it into a million pieces and bury some of it like
a rototiller does. Otherwise, the grass will be popping up all over the
place a month later. You have to slice the turf into manageable pieces,
slide under it with a fork, and shake off the soil. It's easy if you get the
right spade & fork, like a Smith & Hawken or something like that. Sounds
like a lot of work, but you're gonna end up doing it anyway if you rototill.
At least with hand tools, you know you've gotten 99% of the grass because it
never gets hidden under the surface.

Once the garden's been prepared, it NEVER gets turned over - just loosened
slightly with a fork in the spring. I injured my shoulder back in March, but
I was able to do this job one-handed because the soil was perfect.

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:15:08 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


A Bully of Bunnies!

What's your problem with rototillers? They make gardening much easier. You
can rent a commercial grade tiller down here for about $35 for a day, and
that's enough time to turn over the dirt for really large garden.


For a number of reasons.

1) You're not supposed to turn over the soil. The soil exists in definite
layers. The layer at the top BELONGS at the top, not buried or mixed with
the layer that's a foot deeper. It contains more of the microorganisms that
make organic gardening work so well. If you screw it up, it can take 2-3
seasons to recover, and there's NO way to speed up the process using soil
amendments.

2) If you're making new beds where there's now some lawn, the goal is to
remove the turf, not chop it into a million pieces and bury some of it like
a rototiller does. Otherwise, the grass will be popping up all over the
place a month later. You have to slice the turf into manageable pieces,
slide under it with a fork, and shake off the soil. It's easy if you get the
right spade & fork, like a Smith & Hawken or something like that. Sounds
like a lot of work, but you're gonna end up doing it anyway if you rototill.
At least with hand tools, you know you've gotten 99% of the grass because it
never gets hidden under the surface.

Once the garden's been prepared, it NEVER gets turned over - just loosened
slightly with a fork in the spring. I injured my shoulder back in March, but
I was able to do this job one-handed because the soil was perfect.


You mean all that time I spent plowing the cut corn stalks under the ground
(about 9" deep) was *wrong*. You could make a lot of farmers happy if you could
convince them that plowing was a waste of time!
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

"PocoLoco" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:15:08 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


A Bully of Bunnies!

What's your problem with rototillers? They make gardening much easier.
You
can rent a commercial grade tiller down here for about $35 for a day,
and
that's enough time to turn over the dirt for really large garden.


For a number of reasons.

1) You're not supposed to turn over the soil. The soil exists in definite
layers. The layer at the top BELONGS at the top, not buried or mixed with
the layer that's a foot deeper. It contains more of the microorganisms
that
make organic gardening work so well. If you screw it up, it can take 2-3
seasons to recover, and there's NO way to speed up the process using soil
amendments.

2) If you're making new beds where there's now some lawn, the goal is to
remove the turf, not chop it into a million pieces and bury some of it
like
a rototiller does. Otherwise, the grass will be popping up all over the
place a month later. You have to slice the turf into manageable pieces,
slide under it with a fork, and shake off the soil. It's easy if you get
the
right spade & fork, like a Smith & Hawken or something like that. Sounds
like a lot of work, but you're gonna end up doing it anyway if you
rototill.
At least with hand tools, you know you've gotten 99% of the grass because
it
never gets hidden under the surface.

Once the garden's been prepared, it NEVER gets turned over - just
loosened
slightly with a fork in the spring. I injured my shoulder back in March,
but
I was able to do this job one-handed because the soil was perfect.


You mean all that time I spent plowing the cut corn stalks under the
ground
(about 9" deep) was *wrong*. You could make a lot of farmers happy if you
could
convince them that plowing was a waste of time!
--
John H

Sometimes they have no choice, due to the scale of their operations. And,
some of them don't plow as deeply as they did 50 or 75 years ago. Farmers
are infinitely adaptable. They've learned to use some organic techniques,
especially when the new ways cost them nothing but a minor adjustment.

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:37:47 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"PocoLoco" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:15:08 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


A Bully of Bunnies!

What's your problem with rototillers? They make gardening much easier.
You
can rent a commercial grade tiller down here for about $35 for a day,
and
that's enough time to turn over the dirt for really large garden.


For a number of reasons.

1) You're not supposed to turn over the soil. The soil exists in definite
layers. The layer at the top BELONGS at the top, not buried or mixed with
the layer that's a foot deeper. It contains more of the microorganisms
that
make organic gardening work so well. If you screw it up, it can take 2-3
seasons to recover, and there's NO way to speed up the process using soil
amendments.

2) If you're making new beds where there's now some lawn, the goal is to
remove the turf, not chop it into a million pieces and bury some of it
like
a rototiller does. Otherwise, the grass will be popping up all over the
place a month later. You have to slice the turf into manageable pieces,
slide under it with a fork, and shake off the soil. It's easy if you get
the
right spade & fork, like a Smith & Hawken or something like that. Sounds
like a lot of work, but you're gonna end up doing it anyway if you
rototill.
At least with hand tools, you know you've gotten 99% of the grass because
it
never gets hidden under the surface.

Once the garden's been prepared, it NEVER gets turned over - just
loosened
slightly with a fork in the spring. I injured my shoulder back in March,
but
I was able to do this job one-handed because the soil was perfect.


You mean all that time I spent plowing the cut corn stalks under the
ground
(about 9" deep) was *wrong*. You could make a lot of farmers happy if you
could
convince them that plowing was a waste of time!
--
John H

Sometimes they have no choice, due to the scale of their operations. And,
some of them don't plow as deeply as they did 50 or 75 years ago. Farmers
are infinitely adaptable. They've learned to use some organic techniques,
especially when the new ways cost them nothing but a minor adjustment.


Farmers will grow clover and just plow it under. They did this to help fertilize
the soil. Farmers today still plow their fields, turning the earth and putting
the top about 9" underground.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

"PocoLoco" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:37:47 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:


"PocoLoco" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:15:08 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


A Bully of Bunnies!

What's your problem with rototillers? They make gardening much easier.
You
can rent a commercial grade tiller down here for about $35 for a day,
and
that's enough time to turn over the dirt for really large garden.


For a number of reasons.

1) You're not supposed to turn over the soil. The soil exists in
definite
layers. The layer at the top BELONGS at the top, not buried or mixed
with
the layer that's a foot deeper. It contains more of the microorganisms
that
make organic gardening work so well. If you screw it up, it can take 2-3
seasons to recover, and there's NO way to speed up the process using
soil
amendments.

2) If you're making new beds where there's now some lawn, the goal is to
remove the turf, not chop it into a million pieces and bury some of it
like
a rototiller does. Otherwise, the grass will be popping up all over the
place a month later. You have to slice the turf into manageable pieces,
slide under it with a fork, and shake off the soil. It's easy if you get
the
right spade & fork, like a Smith & Hawken or something like that. Sounds
like a lot of work, but you're gonna end up doing it anyway if you
rototill.
At least with hand tools, you know you've gotten 99% of the grass
because
it
never gets hidden under the surface.

Once the garden's been prepared, it NEVER gets turned over - just
loosened
slightly with a fork in the spring. I injured my shoulder back in March,
but
I was able to do this job one-handed because the soil was perfect.


You mean all that time I spent plowing the cut corn stalks under the
ground
(about 9" deep) was *wrong*. You could make a lot of farmers happy if
you
could
convince them that plowing was a waste of time!
--
John H

Sometimes they have no choice, due to the scale of their operations. And,
some of them don't plow as deeply as they did 50 or 75 years ago. Farmers
are infinitely adaptable. They've learned to use some organic techniques,
especially when the new ways cost them nothing but a minor adjustment.


Farmers will grow clover and just plow it under. They did this to help
fertilize
the soil. Farmers today still plow their fields, turning the earth and
putting
the top about 9" underground.
--
John H

We're using "plowing" as a generic term for "working the soil" between
plantings. The point I'm making is that they've learned to not plow as
deeply as they used to, unless they're preparing a totally new field that's
badly compacted, or laden with too much clay. For the latter condition, it's
an effort to open up pathways for rain and organic wastes to penetrate. In
colder climates, repeated freezing and thawing can help break up hard soils.
But, once a field reaches a certain level of tilth, they do not cultivate
deeply.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

1) You're not supposed to turn over the soil. The soil exists in definite
layers. The layer at the top BELONGS at the top, not buried or mixed with
the layer that's a foot deeper. It contains more of the microorganisms
that make organic gardening work so well. If you screw it up, it can take
2-3 seasons to recover, and there's NO way to speed up the process using
soil amendments.

I didn't know that! I never thought of that! Hey! How about that!

I've got a yard full of clay. The kind of adobe that sticks to a shovel
like some kind of tenacious creature from another planet. I was going to
rototill amendments into the top six inches or so of an area that I want to
turn into a garden. I guess I can still do that. I'll just have to
remember to leave the top alone once I get things rolling.

"Bryan" wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

1) You're not supposed to turn over the soil. The soil exists in definite
layers. The layer at the top BELONGS at the top, not buried or mixed with
the layer that's a foot deeper. It contains more of the microorganisms
that make organic gardening work so well. If you screw it up, it can take
2-3 seasons to recover, and there's NO way to speed up the process using
soil amendments.

I didn't know that! I never thought of that! Hey! How about that!

I've got a yard full of clay. The kind of adobe that sticks to a shovel
like some kind of tenacious creature from another planet. I was going to
rototill amendments into the top six inches or so of an area that I want
to turn into a garden. I guess I can still do that. I'll just have to
remember to leave the top alone once I get things rolling.



Bryan, search in the rec.gardens newsgroup for the words "clay soil" in the
subject line, in a thread begun by me. I've got a friend whose soil is
suitable for making pottery, and I was looking for suggestions to assist
her. I got some good ideas from a few people. The best one was almost
effortless. Assuming you're in a climate where the ground freezes, puncture
with a pitch fork, to the depth of the fork. Don't try to actually move big
clumps of clay - just make a series of holes. Cover with a LOT of leaves. If
it's a small plot, it may be economical to cover the leaves with chicken
wire to keep them in place. Or, hose them down just enough to give them some
weight. They should mat down and stay put after a few days. You should see
some improvement in the spring, although it'll probably require repetition
the following autumn.

Do NOT add peat moss. Clay already holds plenty of water, as you know. And,
a few people recommended adding gypsum of some sort. A real garden center
will know where to get it. But, the guy I consulted here said to try the
leaves first.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Bryan" wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

1) You're not supposed to turn over the soil. The soil exists in
definite layers. The layer at the top BELONGS at the top, not buried or
mixed with the layer that's a foot deeper. It contains more of the
microorganisms that make organic gardening work so well. If you screw it
up, it can take 2-3 seasons to recover, and there's NO way to speed up
the process using soil amendments.

I didn't know that! I never thought of that! Hey! How about that!

I've got a yard full of clay. The kind of adobe that sticks to a shovel
like some kind of tenacious creature from another planet. I was going to
rototill amendments into the top six inches or so of an area that I want
to turn into a garden. I guess I can still do that. I'll just have to
remember to leave the top alone once I get things rolling.



Bryan, search in the rec.gardens newsgroup for the words "clay soil" in
the subject line, in a thread begun by me. I've got a friend whose soil is
suitable for making pottery, and I was looking for suggestions to assist
her. I got some good ideas from a few people. The best one was almost
effortless. Assuming you're in a climate where the ground freezes,
puncture with a pitch fork, to the depth of the fork. Don't try to
actually move big clumps of clay - just make a series of holes. Cover with
a LOT of leaves. If it's a small plot, it may be economical to cover the
leaves with chicken wire to keep them in place. Or, hose them down just
enough to give them some weight. They should mat down and stay put after a
few days. You should see some improvement in the spring, although it'll
probably require repetition the following autumn.

Do NOT add peat moss. Clay already holds plenty of water, as you know.
And, a few people recommended adding gypsum of some sort. A real garden
center will know where to get it. But, the guy I consulted here said to
try the leaves first.


Someone told me to mix sand with the clay, but something tells me that would
be a good way to make bricks.

"Bryan" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Bryan" wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

1) You're not supposed to turn over the soil. The soil exists in
definite layers. The layer at the top BELONGS at the top, not buried or
mixed with the layer that's a foot deeper. It contains more of the
microorganisms that make organic gardening work so well. If you screw
it up, it can take 2-3 seasons to recover, and there's NO way to speed
up the process using soil amendments.

I didn't know that! I never thought of that! Hey! How about that!

I've got a yard full of clay. The kind of adobe that sticks to a shovel
like some kind of tenacious creature from another planet. I was going
to rototill amendments into the top six inches or so of an area that I
want to turn into a garden. I guess I can still do that. I'll just
have to remember to leave the top alone once I get things rolling.



Bryan, search in the rec.gardens newsgroup for the words "clay soil" in
the subject line, in a thread begun by me. I've got a friend whose soil
is suitable for making pottery, and I was looking for suggestions to
assist her. I got some good ideas from a few people. The best one was
almost effortless. Assuming you're in a climate where the ground freezes,
puncture with a pitch fork, to the depth of the fork. Don't try to
actually move big clumps of clay - just make a series of holes. Cover
with a LOT of leaves. If it's a small plot, it may be economical to cover
the leaves with chicken wire to keep them in place. Or, hose them down
just enough to give them some weight. They should mat down and stay put
after a few days. You should see some improvement in the spring, although
it'll probably require repetition the following autumn.

Do NOT add peat moss. Clay already holds plenty of water, as you know.
And, a few people recommended adding gypsum of some sort. A real garden
center will know where to get it. But, the guy I consulted here said to
try the leaves first.


Someone told me to mix sand with the clay, but something tells me that
would be a good way to make bricks.


Yeah...that sounds wrong to me, too. What it needs is organic fluff. Once
that's there, worms and other union members will begin to help more.

Just remembered....you said California. Maybe no falling leaves in the
autumn? According to my massive library of hippie organic blather, dried
seaweed is supposed to be a great substitute for leaves.