"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

A Bully of Bunnies!

What's your problem with rototillers? They make gardening much easier.
You can rent a commercial grade tiller down here for about $35 for a
day, and that's enough time to turn over the dirt for really large
garden.


For a number of reasons.

1) You're not supposed to turn over the soil. The soil exists in definite
layers. The layer at the top BELONGS at the top, not buried or mixed with
the layer that's a foot deeper. It contains more of the microorganisms
that make organic gardening work so well. If you screw it up, it can take
2-3 seasons to recover, and there's NO way to speed up the process using
soil amendments.

2) If you're making new beds where there's now some lawn, the goal is to
remove the turf, not chop it into a million pieces and bury some of it
like a rototiller does. Otherwise, the grass will be popping up all over
the place a month later. You have to slice the turf into manageable
pieces, slide under it with a fork, and shake off the soil. It's easy if
you get the right spade & fork, like a Smith & Hawken or something like
that. Sounds like a lot of work, but you're gonna end up doing it anyway
if you rototill. At least with hand tools, you know you've gotten 99% of
the grass because it never gets hidden under the surface.

Once the garden's been prepared, it NEVER gets turned over - just
loosened slightly with a fork in the spring. I injured my shoulder back
in March, but I was able to do this job one-handed because the soil was
perfect.

Ah, I used to till for a garden. Never seemed to hurt the crops.

You tilled every year? How would you know there wasn't a better way if you
weren't aware of it?

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:15:08 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


A Bully of Bunnies!

What's your problem with rototillers? They make gardening much easier. You
can rent a commercial grade tiller down here for about $35 for a day, and
that's enough time to turn over the dirt for really large garden.


For a number of reasons.

1) You're not supposed to turn over the soil. The soil exists in definite
layers. The layer at the top BELONGS at the top, not buried or mixed with
the layer that's a foot deeper. It contains more of the microorganisms that
make organic gardening work so well. If you screw it up, it can take 2-3
seasons to recover, and there's NO way to speed up the process using soil
amendments.

2) If you're making new beds where there's now some lawn, the goal is to
remove the turf, not chop it into a million pieces and bury some of it like
a rototiller does. Otherwise, the grass will be popping up all over the
place a month later. You have to slice the turf into manageable pieces,
slide under it with a fork, and shake off the soil. It's easy if you get the
right spade & fork, like a Smith & Hawken or something like that. Sounds
like a lot of work, but you're gonna end up doing it anyway if you rototill.
At least with hand tools, you know you've gotten 99% of the grass because it
never gets hidden under the surface.

Once the garden's been prepared, it NEVER gets turned over - just loosened
slightly with a fork in the spring. I injured my shoulder back in March, but
I was able to do this job one-handed because the soil was perfect.


You mean all that time I spent plowing the cut corn stalks under the ground
(about 9" deep) was *wrong*. You could make a lot of farmers happy if you could
convince them that plowing was a waste of time!
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

"PocoLoco" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:15:08 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


A Bully of Bunnies!

What's your problem with rototillers? They make gardening much easier.
You
can rent a commercial grade tiller down here for about $35 for a day,
and
that's enough time to turn over the dirt for really large garden.


For a number of reasons.

1) You're not supposed to turn over the soil. The soil exists in definite
layers. The layer at the top BELONGS at the top, not buried or mixed with
the layer that's a foot deeper. It contains more of the microorganisms
that
make organic gardening work so well. If you screw it up, it can take 2-3
seasons to recover, and there's NO way to speed up the process using soil
amendments.

2) If you're making new beds where there's now some lawn, the goal is to
remove the turf, not chop it into a million pieces and bury some of it
like
a rototiller does. Otherwise, the grass will be popping up all over the
place a month later. You have to slice the turf into manageable pieces,
slide under it with a fork, and shake off the soil. It's easy if you get
the
right spade & fork, like a Smith & Hawken or something like that. Sounds
like a lot of work, but you're gonna end up doing it anyway if you
rototill.
At least with hand tools, you know you've gotten 99% of the grass because
it
never gets hidden under the surface.

Once the garden's been prepared, it NEVER gets turned over - just
loosened
slightly with a fork in the spring. I injured my shoulder back in March,
but
I was able to do this job one-handed because the soil was perfect.


You mean all that time I spent plowing the cut corn stalks under the
ground
(about 9" deep) was *wrong*. You could make a lot of farmers happy if you
could
convince them that plowing was a waste of time!
--
John H

Sometimes they have no choice, due to the scale of their operations. And,
some of them don't plow as deeply as they did 50 or 75 years ago. Farmers
are infinitely adaptable. They've learned to use some organic techniques,
especially when the new ways cost them nothing but a minor adjustment.

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:37:47 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"PocoLoco" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:15:08 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


A Bully of Bunnies!

What's your problem with rototillers? They make gardening much easier.
You
can rent a commercial grade tiller down here for about $35 for a day,
and
that's enough time to turn over the dirt for really large garden.


For a number of reasons.

1) You're not supposed to turn over the soil. The soil exists in definite
layers. The layer at the top BELONGS at the top, not buried or mixed with
the layer that's a foot deeper. It contains more of the microorganisms
that
make organic gardening work so well. If you screw it up, it can take 2-3
seasons to recover, and there's NO way to speed up the process using soil
amendments.

2) If you're making new beds where there's now some lawn, the goal is to
remove the turf, not chop it into a million pieces and bury some of it
like
a rototiller does. Otherwise, the grass will be popping up all over the
place a month later. You have to slice the turf into manageable pieces,
slide under it with a fork, and shake off the soil. It's easy if you get
the
right spade & fork, like a Smith & Hawken or something like that. Sounds
like a lot of work, but you're gonna end up doing it anyway if you
rototill.
At least with hand tools, you know you've gotten 99% of the grass because
it
never gets hidden under the surface.

Once the garden's been prepared, it NEVER gets turned over - just
loosened
slightly with a fork in the spring. I injured my shoulder back in March,
but
I was able to do this job one-handed because the soil was perfect.


You mean all that time I spent plowing the cut corn stalks under the
ground
(about 9" deep) was *wrong*. You could make a lot of farmers happy if you
could
convince them that plowing was a waste of time!
--
John H

Sometimes they have no choice, due to the scale of their operations. And,
some of them don't plow as deeply as they did 50 or 75 years ago. Farmers
are infinitely adaptable. They've learned to use some organic techniques,
especially when the new ways cost them nothing but a minor adjustment.


Farmers will grow clover and just plow it under. They did this to help fertilize
the soil. Farmers today still plow their fields, turning the earth and putting
the top about 9" underground.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:44:54 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:25:37 -0400, PocoLoco
wrote:

You mean all that time I spent plowing the cut corn stalks under the ground
(about 9" deep) was *wrong*. You could make a lot of farmers happy if you could
convince them that plowing was a waste of time!

They already do that in New England and I would imagine in most of the
US.

In the spring, it's just a disc and harrow, then rest the field for
two/three days, then plant.

Doug is right about the gardening thing. Even when they turn a corn
field to a hay field for "resting" for a few years, it's strictly a
disc and harrow, then plant.

In the corn/hay fields I hire out, even five years or so, it's turned
into a hay field and the hay fields are turned into corn fields. Every
ten years or so, a bean crop is planted and just quickly turned over
(disc and harrow) in the Spring. That's about 125 acres of each turned
over every five years on average.

I still see a lot of plowed fields, but maybe that's just because corn stalks
would be hard to turn over with a disc and harrow. I left the farm many years
ago, so techniques have probably changed somewhat.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

Doug Kanter wrote:

Acquired a new kitten this weekend.
She's being trained to deal with the rabbits. Going to the mall to get a
very realistic stuffed bunny. I'm gonna open it up, add a few tablespoons of
catnip, sew it back up, and teach kitty that this is the reason for her
existence.



Had a cat in Tennessee that would bring in the occasional rabbit,
in pieces, but that was just something he decided to do. I din't
teach him nothin'.

-Raf

--
Misifus-
Rafael Seibert

http://www.ralphandsue.com

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:17:41 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:19:05 -0400, PocoLoco
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:44:54 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:25:37 -0400, PocoLoco
wrote:

You mean all that time I spent plowing the cut corn stalks under the ground
(about 9" deep) was *wrong*. You could make a lot of farmers happy if you could
convince them that plowing was a waste of time!

They already do that in New England and I would imagine in most of the
US.

In the spring, it's just a disc and harrow, then rest the field for
two/three days, then plant.

Doug is right about the gardening thing. Even when they turn a corn
field to a hay field for "resting" for a few years, it's strictly a
disc and harrow, then plant.

In the corn/hay fields I hire out, even five years or so, it's turned
into a hay field and the hay fields are turned into corn fields. Every
ten years or so, a bean crop is planted and just quickly turned over
(disc and harrow) in the Spring. That's about 125 acres of each turned
over every five years on average.

I still see a lot of plowed fields, but maybe that's just because corn stalks
would be hard to turn over with a disc and harrow. I left the farm many years
ago, so techniques have probably changed somewhat.

It's amazing what they can do with some of this new equipment. The
farmer that hires out my fields has this monster disc/harrow deal with
opposing discs (at roughly 20º to each other) that just chops stuff up
and harrows at the same time.

Looks like this, only three times the size.

http://www.caseih.com/products/serie...id=105&RL=ENNA

I was thinking of these.

http://www.deere.com/servlet/com.dee...FR&pNbr=3710XN
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Bryan" wrote in message
m...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Bryan" wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
No squirrels at home???


Rats. Mice. Opossum. Skunk. Crow. Geese. Pigeon. Dove. Egret.
That's our suburban backyard. Some call it wildlife. Some call it
suburban wildlife. With the exception of the egrets, I just call it
pests. The lake is a wilderness area compared to our suburban life, so
the kids aren't used to seeing animals in their natural habitat. Oh
yeah, and I haven't seen a squirrel in the 10 years I've lived here.


Where's "here"?


Sonoma County near Santa Rosa.


I could package up a few dozen squirrels for you, if you're interested.
That would leave me with a few thousand.


No thanks, Doug. I shot my share of squirrel when I was a kid living on my
walnut ranch in Southern California. I'll stick to my memories.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

1) You're not supposed to turn over the soil. The soil exists in definite
layers. The layer at the top BELONGS at the top, not buried or mixed with
the layer that's a foot deeper. It contains more of the microorganisms
that make organic gardening work so well. If you screw it up, it can take
2-3 seasons to recover, and there's NO way to speed up the process using
soil amendments.

I didn't know that! I never thought of that! Hey! How about that!

I've got a yard full of clay. The kind of adobe that sticks to a shovel
like some kind of tenacious creature from another planet. I was going to
rototill amendments into the top six inches or so of an area that I want to
turn into a garden. I guess I can still do that. I'll just have to
remember to leave the top alone once I get things rolling.

"PocoLoco" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:37:47 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:


"PocoLoco" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:15:08 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


A Bully of Bunnies!

What's your problem with rototillers? They make gardening much easier.
You
can rent a commercial grade tiller down here for about $35 for a day,
and
that's enough time to turn over the dirt for really large garden.


For a number of reasons.

1) You're not supposed to turn over the soil. The soil exists in
definite
layers. The layer at the top BELONGS at the top, not buried or mixed
with
the layer that's a foot deeper. It contains more of the microorganisms
that
make organic gardening work so well. If you screw it up, it can take 2-3
seasons to recover, and there's NO way to speed up the process using
soil
amendments.

2) If you're making new beds where there's now some lawn, the goal is to
remove the turf, not chop it into a million pieces and bury some of it
like
a rototiller does. Otherwise, the grass will be popping up all over the
place a month later. You have to slice the turf into manageable pieces,
slide under it with a fork, and shake off the soil. It's easy if you get
the
right spade & fork, like a Smith & Hawken or something like that. Sounds
like a lot of work, but you're gonna end up doing it anyway if you
rototill.
At least with hand tools, you know you've gotten 99% of the grass
because
it
never gets hidden under the surface.

Once the garden's been prepared, it NEVER gets turned over - just
loosened
slightly with a fork in the spring. I injured my shoulder back in March,
but
I was able to do this job one-handed because the soil was perfect.


You mean all that time I spent plowing the cut corn stalks under the
ground
(about 9" deep) was *wrong*. You could make a lot of farmers happy if
you
could
convince them that plowing was a waste of time!
--
John H

Sometimes they have no choice, due to the scale of their operations. And,
some of them don't plow as deeply as they did 50 or 75 years ago. Farmers
are infinitely adaptable. They've learned to use some organic techniques,
especially when the new ways cost them nothing but a minor adjustment.


Farmers will grow clover and just plow it under. They did this to help
fertilize
the soil. Farmers today still plow their fields, turning the earth and
putting
the top about 9" underground.
--
John H

We're using "plowing" as a generic term for "working the soil" between
plantings. The point I'm making is that they've learned to not plow as
deeply as they used to, unless they're preparing a totally new field that's
badly compacted, or laden with too much clay. For the latter condition, it's
an effort to open up pathways for rain and organic wastes to penetrate. In
colder climates, repeated freezing and thawing can help break up hard soils.
But, once a field reaches a certain level of tilth, they do not cultivate
deeply.