"NYC XYZ" wrote in message
ups.com...

It was dark, nine-something, and so of course I'm paddling very close
to shore -- no more than ten feet at any given time. Then this NYPD
Harbor Patrol boat comes up the river towards me! I'm paddling even
closer to shore now, when suddenly it zips by like five feet away and
capsizes me with an eight-foot wave!! (I know it's at least eight feet
'cause that's how long the PaddleSki paddles are.)

I'm dashed to the rocks and all cut-up: right cheek, forearms, right
shoulder, right thigh....

Very sorry to hear of your injuries, but isn't the main issue here that you
were paddling at night in an unsafe area for paddling at night? Maybe? It
sounds like you were lucky not to be killed!

Keenan & Julie wrote:


Very sorry to hear of your injuries, but isn't the main issue here that you
were paddling at night in an unsafe area for paddling at night? Maybe? It
sounds like you were lucky not to be killed!


Many thanks for your sympathies, and yes, as I'd originally stated,
it's actually the rocks which may have saved me from being plunged
deeply into water.

But what's an area unsafe for paddling at night? AFAIK, the East River
isn't considered so, at least not "naturally" speaking. There was very
little traffic, too -- in another post I'd detailed five motorcraft in
roughly four hours of paddling.

And I'm still puzzled that no one can answer these three fairly obvious
and basic questions:

Where is a paddler supposed to be if not along the shoreline?

Why allow police motorcraft to speed up along the shoreline in
darkness?

What good are those giant halogen lights on the police boat, then???


I understand I can avoid all this by just staying home. But then
that's not exactly an answer to these questions. Why should the rivers
be more dangerous than NYC streets?? Think about it.

in article , NYC XYZ at
wrote on 7/28/05 9:32 AM:


Keenan & Julie wrote:


Very sorry to hear of your injuries, but isn't the main issue here that you
were paddling at night in an unsafe area for paddling at night? Maybe? It
sounds like you were lucky not to be killed!


Many thanks for your sympathies, and yes, as I'd originally stated,
it's actually the rocks which may have saved me from being plunged
deeply into water.

But what's an area unsafe for paddling at night? AFAIK, the East River
isn't considered so, at least not "naturally" speaking. There was very
little traffic, too -- in another post I'd detailed five motorcraft in
roughly four hours of paddling.

And I'm still puzzled that no one can answer these three fairly obvious
and basic questions:

Where is a paddler supposed to be if not along the shoreline?

There would be exceptions (there are some places a paddler is not supposed
to be at all) but my answer to your question would be, generally, that the
shorline would normally be a good place to be to avoid getting run over by a
powerboat.

Why allow police motorcraft to speed up along the shoreline in
darkness?

I would assume for the same type of reasons a police car might speed along a
road.

What good are those giant halogen lights on the police boat, then???

Unless you are suggesting they deliberately tried to kill you, it's rather
irrelevant, because they didn't see you.

I understand I can avoid all this by just staying home. But then
that's not exactly an answer to these questions. Why should the rivers
be more dangerous than NYC streets?? Think about it.

There's no evidence the river is more dangerous. That is not to say that you
were not in danger.

Keenan & Julie wrote:


There would be exceptions (there are some places a paddler is not supposed
to be at all) but my answer to your question would be, generally, that the
shorline would normally be a good place to be to avoid getting run over by a
powerboat.

And what are the actual laws and regs, if any? I'm really curious,
because if one can't even be safe where one's supposed to be safe,
what's the point?

I would assume for the same type of reasons a police car might speed along a
road.

Wouldn't they have sirens and horns flashing? Wouldn't they go along
the middle of the river where "sailing" is best?

Unless you are suggesting they deliberately tried to kill you, it's rather
irrelevant, because they didn't see you.

It's not irrelevant if the conversation's turning on whether I have
done what I can to make myself be seen -- have THEY done what they can
to see, like, open their eyes?

There's no evidence the river is more dangerous. That is not to say that you
were not in danger.

Um, despite all the car accidents, random shootings, roller-bladers,
loose dogs, and drunk investment bankers, NYC streets are still more
predictable than NYC rivers, as my case attests!

Why, if I had reported that I crossed the street on my green and a
police vehicle not flashing sirens swiped me onto the curb, would folks
still be asking me what was I doing crossing the street?

Seriously, I want to know -- what is the point of their halogen lights
if the onus is on me to be seen? What is the point of my sticking to
the shoreline if they're still at liberty to charge up it in the dark?

in article , NYC XYZ at
wrote on 7/28/05 10:31 AM:


Keenan & Julie wrote:


There would be exceptions (there are some places a paddler is not supposed
to be at all) but my answer to your question would be, generally, that the
shorline would normally be a good place to be to avoid getting run over by a
powerboat.

And what are the actual laws and regs, if any?

Why don't you look them up?

I'm really curious,
because if one can't even be safe where one's supposed to be safe,
what's the point?

I would assume for the same type of reasons a police car might speed along a
road.

Wouldn't they have sirens and horns flashing? Wouldn't they go along
the middle of the river where "sailing" is best?

I don't know why they were there.

Unless you are suggesting they deliberately tried to kill you, it's rather
irrelevant, because they didn't see you.

It's not irrelevant if the conversation's turning on whether I have
done what I can to make myself be seen -- have THEY done what they can
to see, like, open their eyes?

Unless you think they deliberately tried not to see you, it is irrelevant.
They didn't see you.

There's no evidence the river is more dangerous. That is not to say that you
were not in danger.

Um, despite all the car accidents, random shootings, roller-bladers,
loose dogs, and drunk investment bankers, NYC streets are still more
predictable than NYC rivers, as my case attests!

Predictable is not the same as safer. Your case only attests to the fact
that there was one incident where you browned your shorts.

Why, if I had reported that I crossed the street on my green and a
police vehicle not flashing sirens swiped me onto the curb, would folks
still be asking me what was I doing crossing the street?

They might. You seem to have an irritating quality.

Seriously, I want to know -- what is the point of their halogen lights
if the onus is on me to be seen? What is the point of my sticking to
the shoreline if they're still at liberty to charge up it in the dark?

I think you should take this to future president Hillary Clinton, that's in
her jurisdiction, isn't it?

Keenan & Julie wrote:


Why don't you look them up?

Figured folks like you who know so much would know at least this much.

I don't know why they were there.

So why make it an issue of why I was there, and under what
circumstances? One poster in this NG even wanted to know what I was
doing out at night!

Unless you think they deliberately tried not to see you, it is irrelevant.
They didn't see you.

How do you know the Bible is the Word of God?

Because it says so in the Bible.

Do you not see your constant circular reasoning?

Predictable is not the same as safer.

You bet your accuary degree it is! What do you think the insurance
industry gambles on? For that matter, how do you think casinos make
their money?

Your case only attests to the fact
that there was one incident where you browned your shorts.

No, reddened my shirt is what happened. But your mentality speaks to
why you paddle in circles.

They might. You seem to have an irritating quality.

Sure -- you chase your own tail and blame me for your dizziness!

I think you should take this to future president Hillary Clinton, that's in
her jurisdiction, isn't it?

Oh, sorry, thought this was rec.boats.paddle, not alt.whatever.

I'll continue learning this sport, no thanks to you, but my advice to
you is to take a course in Symbolic Logic I before the next
Presidential elections.

Keenan & Julie wrote:


Why don't you look them up?

Funny that the only substantive thing you can offer, you don't.

I don't know why they were there.

The question is where they should be on a river.

Unless you think they deliberately tried not to see you, it is irrelevant.
They didn't see you.

How do you know the Bible is the Word of God?

Because it says so in the Bible.

Do you not see your circular reasoning going round and round?

Predictable is not the same as safer.

Ask your insurance why you pay the premium you do.

Your case only attests to the fact
that there was one incident where you browned your shorts.

Reddened my shirt, in fact.

Your response only attests to the fact that you're upset you can't
convince me I was wrong to have been paddling close to the shoreline.

They might. You seem to have an irritating quality.

Don't blame me for your dizziness chasing your own tail.

I think you should take this to future president Hillary Clinton, that's in
her jurisdiction, isn't it?

Oh, sorry, I thought this was rec.boats.paddle, not
alt.keenan.julie.whatever.

Take a course in Symbolic Logic I before the next Presidential
election, please.

On 28 Jul 2005 07:31:04 -0700, "NYC XYZ" wrote:

...
because if one can't even be safe where one's supposed to be safe,
what's the point?
....

Personally, I think that this statement is indicative of a false
expectation. You aren't "safe" anywhere, people have been struck and
killed by lightning while in a church, and if you aren't "safe" there,
where can you expect to be? It is almost universally stated that operators
of watercraft are required to maintain a sharp lookout to avoid situations
such as you experienced, and to avoid any problems with their own craft as
well. It is almost as universally acknowledged that many operators neglect
to do so. I've paddled among stinkpots (power boats) a bunch, and assume
that they are all out to get me. While most are not, I have had far too
many experiences where they simply have not seen me, and seemed to be
trying their darnedest to hit me, along with a few that actually seemed to
play a game of "Sink the Kayak." One thing about stinkpots, you can
usually hear them coming and may have time to prepare. There is nothing
"safe" about crawling into a boat and there is certainly nothing "safe"
about being on the water, especially when there are larger boats about.
There are many things you can do to minimize the danger, but you can
never, ever be "safe." I go paddling because even with the risks involved,
I get benefits that to me far outweigh the relative safety of the shore.
Perhaps you should reconsider why you paddle. Having said all that, it is
indeed a bummer that you experienced what you did.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We'll cross that bridge when it rears its ugly head

Galen Hekhuis wrote:


Personally, I think that this statement is indicative of a false
expectation. You aren't "safe" anywhere, people have been struck and
killed by lightning while in a church, and if you aren't "safe" there,
where can you expect to be?

A police boat is not an act of God.

It is almost universally stated that operators
of watercraft are required to maintain a sharp lookout to avoid situations
such as you experienced, and to avoid any problems with their own craft as
well. It is almost as universally acknowledged that many operators neglect
to do so.

And what no one has been able to advise yet is what more I could have
done!

I've paddled among stinkpots (power boats) a bunch, and assume
that they are all out to get me. While most are not, I have had far too
many experiences where they simply have not seen me, and seemed to be
trying their darnedest to hit me, along with a few that actually seemed to
play a game of "Sink the Kayak." One thing about stinkpots, you can
usually hear them coming and may have time to prepare.

Did you even read my post, or are you just getting something off your
chest here????

There is nothing
"safe" about crawling into a boat and there is certainly nothing "safe"
about being on the water, especially when there are larger boats about.

There's nothing safe about eating meat, there's nothing safe about
driving a car, there's nothing safe in living past 70...do you know
what "non sequitur" means?

There are many things you can do to minimize the danger, but you can
never, ever be "safe."

Uh, sorry, didn't realize this was alt.usage.english. Or should that
be sci.semantics?

I go paddling because even with the risks involved,
I get benefits that to me far outweigh the relative safety of the shore.
Perhaps you should reconsider why you paddle. Having said all that, it is
indeed a bummer that you experienced what you did.

I give now Professor Twist,
A conscientious scientist.
Trustees exclaimed, "He never bungles!"
And sent him off to distant jungles.
Camped on a tropic riverside,
One day he missed his loving bride.
She had, the guide informed him later,
Been eaten by an alligator.
Professor Twist could not but smile.
"You mean," he said, "a crocodile."

Ogden Nash, "The Purist"


You folks actually want to advocate this sport, or do you like feeling
these exclusive airs?

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
We'll cross that bridge when it rears its ugly head

Wow! What a thread!

What could have been done differently? Among the (understandably) heated
rhetoric, there has been some remarkably good advice, especially from Dave
Van (along with one small request - for polite language).

To build on DV's response:
__________________________________________________ _______________
-Knowledge of the potential dangers of the waterway: New York Harbor
requires advanced boating and paddling skills in the best of circumstances.
It is primarily a commercial waterway, with 24 hour operation of large
vessels. Small craft are the exception, not the norm -- they simply don't
expect to see you there, like a tricycle on the LIE -- though this has
changed a bit since I paddled there. Night-time paddling is inadvisable
even for experts. Talk to one of the experts in manually-propelled boats
there; join one of the community boating groups. (I can provide contacts,
if anybody is serious.)

-Develop relevant skills before putting yourself in such a situation.
Paddle only with a more experienced buddy. Beginners (less than, say, 100
hours on the water) should paddle alone only in ideal conditions, never at
night.

-Be aware of the risks and advantages of paddling in different parts of the
waterways. There are no 'lanes', and in my (not very current) experience,
the East River can be very difficult near-shore. In the shallows, you risk
breaking waves and obstructions, and near bulkheads and other vertical
surfaces reflecting waves are a real hazard. I think I would take my
chances with collision, further from shore, rather than hug the edges.

-Better (brighter) nav lights. Not required in a kayak, but a good idea.

-A backup flashlight that you could raise and shine directly at the
oncoming boat or a head mounted directional light. Lights on a boat are NOT
to help you see others, but to assure they see you. Consider carrying a
really bright spotlight, that will get a helmsman's attention. As noted by
many others, it is your responsibility to be seen. Even if the helmsman of
a commercial/official vessel is held at fault for a collision, it will be
too late for you. (If a Police boat had spotlights, they were for S&R and
other police work, not 'headlights'.)

-Reflective tape on your boat and/or vest. I don't like the idea of
"visibility flags" on principle, but if it keeps you from being run down in
daylight...

-An air horn or a loud whistle. Required, I believe.

-Aerial flares, ready for use. ( Probably illegal for use for collision
avoidance, but I'll cheerfully pay the fine ;-)

-A water craft appropriate for the conditions in which you were paddling
(potential for large boat wake). More importantly, develop the skills
required to handle the boat you are in, before entering a risky situation.

-Carry, learn to use, and monitor a VHF radio.
__________________________________________________ _______________
There's still probably more. But one issue I didn't see addressed - a
vessel is responsible for damage or injuries caused by its wake. A
principle which seems rarely to be applied.


Well, I finally took that Sea Eagle PaddleSki 435 out for a paddle!
I'm a noob with only six paddles to my credit, including the initial
instructional one, but I felt comfortable enough today to try out this
inflatable catamaran-kayak hybrid...and all on my own!

Yes, safety rule violation number one -- newbie alone on water. We'll
get to that in a bit, but for now I'd like to just chat about the
PaddleSki.
snip
A simple boat, really, for quick and easy pick-up-and-go recreation. I
think it's perfect for fla****er, but it handled the East River very
nicely for me today!