I was told by a Werner rep about the glass change as I was applying for
warranty coverage on padddle break # 1. Something about "S" glass and "E"
glass. Remember the old werners with the all white blades, pre freestyle
etc? They were just about indestructable. You are correct however about a
paddle taking a hit then delaminating or snapping at a later time.
"Courtney" wrote in message
nk.net...
Werner didn't go to a cheaper glass. Who told you that? They're using
the
same glass for the Freestyle that they use on the other paddles, just a
different lay-up for each design. As for breaking 2 paddles, you can
stress
a paddle and not know it by hitting it on a rock or throwing it on the
shore
or prying your boat off with it, etc... Then later on down the road it
breaks for no apparent reason; just a small hit on something will do it.
This is with all paddles, not just Werner. Some people are harder on
paddles than others and all paddles will break. They're not
indestructible.

To the original poster and your question, I have absolutely no idea.

Courtney

"Grip" wrote in message
...
THese are white water paddles you're talking of I believe. I have broken
two
Werner Freestyles, Werner went to a cheaper glass some years ago ( the
kind
you can fix your car with from Pep Boy's etc.) As far as dripping, it is
a
wet sport! Lightning paddles are pretty tough, and wear symetrically,
last
a long time of you put edging around the blades. I have an older Riot
crank
shaft with nylon blades, shaft made by Lendle, toughest thing I've ever
owned.
"Bill Tuthill" wrote in message
...
wrote:
As long as some of the regulars are still hanging around,
contributing
trip reports and their years of accumulated knowledge I refuse to
give
up on rbp's potential.

Then let me ask a question I posted on Boatertalk.com, so far
unanswered.

On a recent trip I compared my Lightning Freeride to
a Carlisle RS Magic (drips most), a Werner freestyle
of unknown type (drips more) and a Lightning symmetric.
With Freeride there's virtually no dripping down the shaft.
I have no idea why. Drip rings are unnecessary!

The Lightning Freeride isn't as good as a Werner dihedral
for backstroking, but it's fine going forward.

In 2005 I see that Werner has two basic lines of non-black
paddles. (I refuse to buy black because it's easy to lose.)
There are ones with downturned blades, and ones with the
typical "freestyle" asymmetric blade shape, not downturned.

Does anyone know if the downturned models (Twist, Player,
Sidekick, in order of size) drip less down the shaft and
shed water as well as a Lightning Freeride?

Easiest thing to use if you wish to "edge it ( it just looks dorky, but
works) is car door edging you get at pep boys,or some such place, plastic
stuff that has built in adhesive. Do an alcohol swab around the edge of the
paddle to clean it, press on the edging, then a bit of super glue at the
ends. It does keep the blades from getting too hacked up.
"Bill Tuthill" wrote in message ...
Grip wrote:
These are white water paddles you're talking of I believe. I have
broken two Werner Freestyles, Werner went to a cheaper glass some
years ago ( the kind you can fix your car with from Pep Boy's etc.)
As far as dripping, it is a wet sport! Lightning paddles are pretty
tough, and wear symetrically, last a long time of you put edging
around the blades. I have an older Riot crank shaft with nylon blades,
shaft made by Lendle, toughest thing I've ever owned.

Yes whitewater, although Lightning and Werner also make touring paddles
with smaller blades. When crossing fla****er in cold weather, it's nice
to have a paddle that doesn't drip a lot: keeps the hands warmer.

How do you put edging around the blades?

Lendal paddles should be tough-- they are very heavy. Lightning paddles
used to be lighter than Werner, but Werner has lightened up.

Courtney wrote:
Werner didn't go to a cheaper glass. Who told you that? They're
using the same glass for the Freestyle that they use on the other
paddles, just a different lay-up for each design. As for breaking
2 paddles, you can stress a paddle and not know it by hitting it
on a rock or throwing it on the shore or prying your boat off with
it, etc... Then later on down the road it breaks for no apparent
reason; just a small hit on something will do it. This is with all
paddles, not just Werner. Some people are harder on paddles than
others and all paddles will break. They're not indestructible.

I've seen all types of paddles break. The current Werner shafts
seem stronger than the current Lightning shafts, but this could be
just my imagination. Lightning blades seem fragile but I've never
seen one break. I have seen a Werner Wenatchee blade break after
a horse stepped in it, but it might be old construction. There are
posts on Boatertalk implying the (less expensive) laminated blades
are more durable than Werner's high-end foam core blades.

As to blade shape, my personal opinion is that "freestyle" asymmetric
isn't worthwhile. You get almost as good performance from symmetric,
and you don't have to worry about blade orientation after a swim, or
when you want to paddle backwards into the wind. However the Freeride
(downturned asymmetric) is worthwhile. It's so much quicker dipping
into the water, and quiet coming out of the water, that it more than
compensates. I'll try to find and test a Werner Side Kick, Player,
or Twist. Werner calls them "play" versus "river running" paddles,
and makes the same distinction for (black) carbon fiber models.
That might be a misnomer because downturned asymmetric seem better
for river running also.

That's interesting. For the past 10 years I used to be a Werner rep and
before that work in paddling stores. I don't recall anything on a material
change. Maybe I just don't remember it or it was before I came into the
industry. By the way the white blades are just resin color. Werner still
had the Quest in white until just about 3 years ago.

Courtney

"Grip" wrote in message
...
I was told by a Werner rep about the glass change as I was applying for
warranty coverage on padddle break # 1. Something about "S" glass and "E"
glass. Remember the old werners with the all white blades, pre freestyle
etc? They were just about indestructable. You are correct however about a
paddle taking a hit then delaminating or snapping at a later time.
"Courtney" wrote in message
nk.net...
Werner didn't go to a cheaper glass. Who told you that? They're using
the
same glass for the Freestyle that they use on the other paddles, just a
different lay-up for each design. As for breaking 2 paddles, you can
stress
a paddle and not know it by hitting it on a rock or throwing it on the
shore
or prying your boat off with it, etc... Then later on down the road it
breaks for no apparent reason; just a small hit on something will do it.
This is with all paddles, not just Werner. Some people are harder on
paddles than others and all paddles will break. They're not
indestructible.

To the original poster and your question, I have absolutely no idea.

Courtney

"Grip" wrote in message
...
THese are white water paddles you're talking of I believe. I have
broken
two
Werner Freestyles, Werner went to a cheaper glass some years ago ( the
kind
you can fix your car with from Pep Boy's etc.) As far as dripping, it
is
a
wet sport! Lightning paddles are pretty tough, and wear symetrically,
last
a long time of you put edging around the blades. I have an older Riot
crank
shaft with nylon blades, shaft made by Lendle, toughest thing I've
ever
owned.
"Bill Tuthill" wrote in message
...
wrote:
As long as some of the regulars are still hanging around,
contributing
trip reports and their years of accumulated knowledge I refuse to
give
up on rbp's potential.

Then let me ask a question I posted on Boatertalk.com, so far
unanswered.

On a recent trip I compared my Lightning Freeride to
a Carlisle RS Magic (drips most), a Werner freestyle
of unknown type (drips more) and a Lightning symmetric.
With Freeride there's virtually no dripping down the shaft.
I have no idea why. Drip rings are unnecessary!

The Lightning Freeride isn't as good as a Werner dihedral
for backstroking, but it's fine going forward.

In 2005 I see that Werner has two basic lines of non-black
paddles. (I refuse to buy black because it's easy to lose.)
There are ones with downturned blades, and ones with the
typical "freestyle" asymmetric blade shape, not downturned.

Does anyone know if the downturned models (Twist, Player,
Sidekick, in order of size) drip less down the shaft and
shed water as well as a Lightning Freeride?

There's some paddle edging made by Salamander called rim rubber. It's
pretty easy to install on a blade but some say they can feel it in their
strokes when they paddle. It's a give and take.

Courtney

"Bill Tuthill" wrote in message ...
Grip wrote:

How do you put edging around the blades?

Courtney wrote:
That's interesting. For the past 10 years I used to be a Werner rep and
before that work in paddling stores. I don't recall anything on a material
change. Maybe I just don't remember it or it was before I came into the
industry. By the way the white blades are just resin color. Werner still
had the Quest in white until just about 3 years ago.

I think the multilayer-fiberglass blades were more than 10 years ago.
E.g. Wenatchee. They were thicker and heavier than current models.

These are the ones I saw a horse step on and break, so I don't believe
they are really any stronger than current blades, just heavier.

After a horse stepped on my Wenatchee, I patched it with epoxy and
fiberglass fabric, and continued using it until a friend lost it
on the Eel Pillsbury run. Odd, it just disappeared into Double Drop,
and even at ultra low flows we couldn't see it!

Thanks both of you for the help on rim rubber edging.

No problem. Hope it works for you. Thanks for the good laugh with the
horse story. I'm surprised it held up at all after a horse stepped on it.

Courtney

"Bill Tuthill" wrote in message ...
Courtney wrote:
That's interesting. For the past 10 years I used to be a Werner rep and
before that work in paddling stores. I don't recall anything on a
material
change. Maybe I just don't remember it or it was before I came into the
industry. By the way the white blades are just resin color. Werner
still
had the Quest in white until just about 3 years ago.

I think the multilayer-fiberglass blades were more than 10 years ago.
E.g. Wenatchee. They were thicker and heavier than current models.

These are the ones I saw a horse step on and break, so I don't believe
they are really any stronger than current blades, just heavier.

After a horse stepped on my Wenatchee, I patched it with epoxy and
fiberglass fabric, and continued using it until a friend lost it
on the Eel Pillsbury run. Odd, it just disappeared into Double Drop,
and even at ultra low flows we couldn't see it!

Thanks both of you for the help on rim rubber edging.

On 1 Jun 2005 14:31:56 -0700, Bill Tuthill wrote:
Deep Creek to East Fork Owyhee to Three Forks
Flows were skimpy, marginal, too high, way too high

Thanks for the trip report, Bill. I have fond memories of
my float down the east fork. Those side creeks looked mighty small
to me! Is stateline cabin the same as Beaver Charlies Cabin, on
river right, where paddlers leave a message in a log book? The river
had cut up to within feet of the cabin, and I expected the next flood
would take it away.
Like you, we also encountered others in the canyon. It was a
commercial group, rafts hauling gear and supporting a kayaking group.
They were portaging their huge loads around the left at Cabin.
Thinking they knew something we didn't, we got out and scouted along
the left, then waved at them as we paddled on through. There was
some discord among that group, as we saw them later, split up, didn't
even camp in the same location.
To fully appreciate the Owyhee canyons you really have to have a
geologist on board to explain what you're seeing. Great place!
Fantastic rock formations. Lava flows. Geodes. And you are also
right about the terrific hot springs. Were you referring to that one
on river left where you have to walk up about 20 feet higher than
river level and sit in that small rock pool, with an overview of the
surrounding area? No better way to warm up on a cold day.
Tom McCloud

Courtney wrote:

No problem. Hope it works for you. Thanks for the good laugh with the
horse story. I'm surprised it held up at all after a horse stepped on it.

I'd be surprised if it didn't. My old Harmony survived being run over by
a Grand Cherokee.

Steve

"Bill Tuthill" wrote in message ...

Courtney wrote:

That's interesting. For the past 10 years I used to be a Werner rep and
before that work in paddling stores. I don't recall anything on a

material

change. Maybe I just don't remember it or it was before I came into the
industry. By the way the white blades are just resin color. Werner

still

had the Quest in white until just about 3 years ago.

I think the multilayer-fiberglass blades were more than 10 years ago.
E.g. Wenatchee. They were thicker and heavier than current models.

These are the ones I saw a horse step on and break, so I don't believe
they are really any stronger than current blades, just heavier.

After a horse stepped on my Wenatchee, I patched it with epoxy and
fiberglass fabric, and continued using it until a friend lost it
on the Eel Pillsbury run. Odd, it just disappeared into Double Drop,
and even at ultra low flows we couldn't see it!

Thanks both of you for the help on rim rubber edging.






--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Tom McCloud wrote:

Thanks for the trip report, Bill. I have fond memories of
my float down the east fork. Those side creeks looked mighty small
to me! Is stateline cabin the same as Beaver Charlies Cabin, on
river right, where paddlers leave a message in a log book? The river
had cut up to within feet of the cabin, and I expected the next flood
would take it away.

Yes, that must be the same cabin. Fortunately it's now above an eddy
of moderate size, and protected above by a rocky promontory, so maybe
it will survive. Who is Beaver Charlie? My guidebook lacked history.

Like you, we also encountered others in the canyon. It was a
commercial group, rafts hauling gear and supporting a kayaking group.
They were portaging their huge loads around the left at Cabin.
Thinking they knew something we didn't, we got out and scouted along
the left, then waved at them as we paddled on through. There was
some discord among that group, as we saw them later, split up, didn't
even camp in the same location.

A commercial group, split up? I've never heard of that happening.
It does occur with privates. Anyway, I would have run class 4 Cabin
in my 14' raft. But at 4500 cfs (at Rome) many of the waves were
large enough to flip an IK, and the swim would have been very long.

To fully appreciate the Owyhee canyons you really have to have a
geologist on board to explain what you're seeing. Great place!
Fantastic rock formations. Lava flows. Geodes. And you are also
right about the terrific hot springs. Were you referring to that one
on river left where you have to walk up about 20 feet higher than
river level and sit in that small rock pool, with an overview of the
surrounding area? No better way to warm up on a cold day.

That's the one. It's not so nice in a drysuit, and were were too lazy
(and pressed for time) to remove our drysuits. One guy was in a wetsuit
and he enjoyed the place more than we did.

Tom, what's the East Fork like from Garat Crossing to Deep Creek?
Presumably mostly flowing fla****er and beautiful scenery.