Deep Creek to East Fork Owyhee to Three Forks
Flows were skimpy, marginal, too high, way too high

Around 1 AM we finally rolled into the BLM campground at Rome Oregon,
having nearly digested a wonderful seafood buffet enjoyed at Reno's
Atlantis casino. Sorry to wake other campers, we set up a tent
to ward off the cold and heavy dew. One of our party is a dentist
who scheduled patients until noon, so we didn't leave Livermore
until 2 PM, and consequently got stuck in Sacramento's rush hour.
After light sleep due to a full moon, the next morning we were up
at 6 AM to meet our shuttle driver in Jordan Valley.

To simplify the shuttle, we had decided to run Deep Creek, then the
East Fork Owyhee, then the upper Owyhee to Three Forks. Most people
put into the East Fork Owyhee at Garat Crossing, but this involves
driving halfway across Idaho. Our shuttle driver also said the road
to Garat Crossing would be impassible for another day or two until
it dried out. On maps, the Deep Creek shuttle looked short and easy.
It was easy, but not short. Despite rain the day before, the road
could wave been negotiated in a Prius. We reached Deep Creek around
noon, where we prepared and loaded our inflatable kayaks.

The upper 10 miles of Deep Creek were willow-choked. Except for five
barbed wire fences, progress was easy enough, but slow. There were
a few difficult passages under branches, and we had one swimmer when
his boat got sideways in a willow-lined channel. Watermelon Seed, a
class 3 rapid at higher flows, was too narrow so we had to portage.
Aside from that and the barbed wire fences, some of us never needed
to get out of our boat. We passed many fine campsites.

Around mile 10, a creek came in from the right, and another from the
left around mile 11. After that there were some excellent rapids,
mostly fast class 2+ with few willow blockages. We camped at mile 13,
thinking we would never finish this trip in four days, the time our
dentist allotted before scheduling more patients on Wednesday. Yum,
jambalaya with Cajun sausage and shrimp.

After a ranch, where another party put in, Deep Creek enters a deep
(surprisingly enough) canyon, where it meanders back and forth for
20 miles to make 8 miles progress as the crow flies. We passed the
other party while they were eating breakfast, and never saw them again.
They were supposed to finish in 4 days, but we doubt they did. Rafts
could have negotiated the river below this lower Deep Creek access,
although portaging Owyhee Falls would be difficult.

In mid afternoon we finally reached the East Fork. The flow looked
fast, and there was a stiff upstream wind. It was a lot muddier
than Deep Creek. We continued downstream to Rickard Crossing, which
is where cattle must cross at low water. There was just a steep trail
leading down to the river. According to Grant Amaral's Idaho guidebook,
this is the take-out for Deep Creek. Having read guidebook statements
saying "there are no campsites in Lambert Gorge" we camped right there
across the river. It was windy but the sun was warm. We should have
gone further downstream into the shady gorge, because...

Boom! We thought we were under attack by someone with a rifle.
But it was just a popped kayak tube, echoing on the rock wall across
the river. The dentist had overinflated at lunch and forgotten to
let air out before beaching his boat. Fortunately the bladder was OK.
Sewing up the torn tube took about two hours while the spare person
prepared dinner. Yum, tortellini with pesto, squash and zucchini.

The next morning we noticed a huge camp above Rockfall (class 4-)
and another nice camp above Owyhee Falls (class 5-6). We portaged
high on the left bank. Seemed like the trail was almost a mile long.
We had to do it twice, once with boats and once with gear. Later
we learned that commercial outfitters line their rafts on the right,
and have their guests walk around on the trail we used to portage.

The East Fork gorge is beautiful below there. After another 2 miles
we came to Thread the Needle, supposedly class 4. Without dynamite
there did not seem to be any viable route thru the rock-strewn drop,
so we lined it on the left. The Needle itself was easily runnable.
Finally we felt we were making progress, although it took longer to
reach Crutcher's Crossing, with old ranch house and new grain silo,
than we expected. Confluence with the South Fork was not far below.
Unfortunately its water was even muddier than the East Fork. There's
an unusual rhyolite needle sticking straight up out of the water.

About a mile down the upper Owyhee we came to a group of rafters
camped above a class 3 rapid. After talking with them for a while,
we easily sneaked this rapid on the right. We encountered another
class 3 rapid about a mile below that one, also easily sneaked.
With flows around 3000-4000 cfs (hard to say with the muddy water)
we wanted to avoid any long swims.

We unexpectedly reached Stateline Cabin, which marks a class 4 rapid
around the next bend. It wasn't a good campsite, but it evening and
we were too tired to negotiate a class 4, which the rafters had said
was almost a mile long. Yum, Pad Thai with green peas and red peppers.

Cabin (4) was around the corner: fast current and huge waves. Even in
a 14' raft there would be danger of flipping. Fortunately we scouted
on the left, and that side turned out to be alternately runnable and/or
lineable. We proceeded around another corner to where a low island
divided the river. Our side had a huge cliff-induced hole stopping us,
so we decided to ferry across to the island, run the right channel,
then ferry back to the left bank below the island. The worst feature
of this rapid lay below the island: a house-sized rock in the middle
with most of the river piling into it, creating a giant pillow.

Three of us made the ferry. We waited for the fourth, who was in an
even smaller kayak then we were. A 5-foot refraction wave launched him
in the air, but he came back down in his boat. Unfortunately at this
juncture he missed a few strokes, collided with a midstream rock, and
fell out. Soon he climbed back in his boat, but without paddle in hand.
As he scraped an undercut rock on the right bank, his paddle was right
in front of him, but he didn't see it. Hand paddling didn't work well.
All the force of the river slammed his boat into the house-sized rock!
Showing Olympic-caliber leaping skills, he jumped onto the rock and
climbed to the top. His boat and camping gear disappeared downriver.

Our fearless leader Mr. Riparian finished lining his boat past the
house-sized rock, and gave chase thru what turned out to be a class 3
runout. He eventually corralled the boat. My remaining buddy threw a
50' rope and hit the stranded kayaker right on the hands. We yo-yo-ed
him to shore and he was OK. He walked down the left shore, and luckily
found his paddle in a small eddy. After the class 3, I gave him a ride
on the back of my boat, but we tipped over when turning into the eddy
where his boat rested. It seemed a miracle that he had survived.

Cable, the last major rapid, appeared to be solid class 5 at this flow.
We sniveled down the right side to the eponymous portaging cable, now
sunk too low for heavy use. Moreover we had neglected to bring pulleys.
Again contrary to guidebooks, which claim a class 5 portage, there was
an easy trail on the right, although we had to pass gear and slide boats
down a cliff to an eddy. Finally, it looked like that dental patient
would get his filling on Wednesday morning.

Several miles below Cable is the most wonderful hot-spring I've seen,
and I've seen plenty. The hot then warm water has no sulphur smell,
is clear as spring water, and makes a scenic waterfall into the river.
Too bad we didn't have another night to camp there.

Take-out was only two miles downriver. When we got there, we thought
the shuttle drivers had failed us: we did not recognize our truck,
it being covered by red-brown dirt. The headlights had caked-on mud
about an inch thick. Evidently the road between Pleasant Valley and
Three Forks isn't as good as the roads to Deep Creek or Three Forks.

At the canyon rim, we had cellphone coverage, contrary to service maps
issued by our cellphone carrier. The drive home was without incident,
except for local reports of flooding in Winnemucca, and the dentist
actually managed to get some sleep before doing that filling.

Thnks, Bill!

Bill Tuthill wrote:
Deep Creek to East Fork Owyhee to Three Forks
Flows were skimpy, marginal, too high, way too high

Around 1 AM we finally rolled into the BLM campground at Rome Oregon,
having nearly digested a wonderful seafood buffet enjoyed at Reno's
Atlantis casino. Sorry to wake other campers, we set up a tent
to ward off the cold and heavy dew. One of our party is a dentist
who scheduled patients until noon, so we didn't leave Livermore
until 2 PM, and consequently got stuck in Sacramento's rush hour.
After light sleep due to a full moon, the next morning we were up
at 6 AM to meet our shuttle driver in Jordan Valley.

To simplify the shuttle, we had decided to run Deep Creek, then the
East Fork Owyhee, then the upper Owyhee to Three Forks. Most people
put into the East Fork Owyhee at Garat Crossing, but this involves
driving halfway across Idaho. Our shuttle driver also said the road
to Garat Crossing would be impassible for another day or two until
it dried out. On maps, the Deep Creek shuttle looked short and easy.
It was easy, but not short. Despite rain the day before, the road
could wave been negotiated in a Prius. We reached Deep Creek around
noon, where we prepared and loaded our inflatable kayaks.

The upper 10 miles of Deep Creek were willow-choked. Except for five
barbed wire fences, progress was easy enough, but slow. There were
a few difficult passages under branches, and we had one swimmer when
his boat got sideways in a willow-lined channel. Watermelon Seed, a
class 3 rapid at higher flows, was too narrow so we had to portage.
Aside from that and the barbed wire fences, some of us never needed
to get out of our boat. We passed many fine campsites.

Around mile 10, a creek came in from the right, and another from the
left around mile 11. After that there were some excellent rapids,
mostly fast class 2+ with few willow blockages. We camped at mile 13,
thinking we would never finish this trip in four days, the time our
dentist allotted before scheduling more patients on Wednesday. Yum,
jambalaya with Cajun sausage and shrimp.

After a ranch, where another party put in, Deep Creek enters a deep
(surprisingly enough) canyon, where it meanders back and forth for
20 miles to make 8 miles progress as the crow flies. We passed the
other party while they were eating breakfast, and never saw them again.
They were supposed to finish in 4 days, but we doubt they did. Rafts
could have negotiated the river below this lower Deep Creek access,
although portaging Owyhee Falls would be difficult.

In mid afternoon we finally reached the East Fork. The flow looked
fast, and there was a stiff upstream wind. It was a lot muddier
than Deep Creek. We continued downstream to Rickard Crossing, which
is where cattle must cross at low water. There was just a steep trail
leading down to the river. According to Grant Amaral's Idaho guidebook,
this is the take-out for Deep Creek. Having read guidebook statements
saying "there are no campsites in Lambert Gorge" we camped right there
across the river. It was windy but the sun was warm. We should have
gone further downstream into the shady gorge, because...

Boom! We thought we were under attack by someone with a rifle.
But it was just a popped kayak tube, echoing on the rock wall across
the river. The dentist had overinflated at lunch and forgotten to
let air out before beaching his boat. Fortunately the bladder was OK.
Sewing up the torn tube took about two hours while the spare person
prepared dinner. Yum, tortellini with pesto, squash and zucchini.

The next morning we noticed a huge camp above Rockfall (class 4-)
and another nice camp above Owyhee Falls (class 5-6). We portaged
high on the left bank. Seemed like the trail was almost a mile long.
We had to do it twice, once with boats and once with gear. Later
we learned that commercial outfitters line their rafts on the right,
and have their guests walk around on the trail we used to portage.

The East Fork gorge is beautiful below there. After another 2 miles
we came to Thread the Needle, supposedly class 4. Without dynamite
there did not seem to be any viable route thru the rock-strewn drop,
so we lined it on the left. The Needle itself was easily runnable.
Finally we felt we were making progress, although it took longer to
reach Crutcher's Crossing, with old ranch house and new grain silo,
than we expected. Confluence with the South Fork was not far below.
Unfortunately its water was even muddier than the East Fork. There's
an unusual rhyolite needle sticking straight up out of the water.

About a mile down the upper Owyhee we came to a group of rafters
camped above a class 3 rapid. After talking with them for a while,
we easily sneaked this rapid on the right. We encountered another
class 3 rapid about a mile below that one, also easily sneaked.
With flows around 3000-4000 cfs (hard to say with the muddy water)
we wanted to avoid any long swims.

We unexpectedly reached Stateline Cabin, which marks a class 4 rapid
around the next bend. It wasn't a good campsite, but it evening and
we were too tired to negotiate a class 4, which the rafters had said
was almost a mile long. Yum, Pad Thai with green peas and red peppers.

Cabin (4) was around the corner: fast current and huge waves. Even in
a 14' raft there would be danger of flipping. Fortunately we scouted
on the left, and that side turned out to be alternately runnable and/or
lineable. We proceeded around another corner to where a low island
divided the river. Our side had a huge cliff-induced hole stopping us,
so we decided to ferry across to the island, run the right channel,
then ferry back to the left bank below the island. The worst feature
of this rapid lay below the island: a house-sized rock in the middle
with most of the river piling into it, creating a giant pillow.

Three of us made the ferry. We waited for the fourth, who was in an
even smaller kayak then we were. A 5-foot refraction wave launched him
in the air, but he came back down in his boat. Unfortunately at this
juncture he missed a few strokes, collided with a midstream rock, and
fell out. Soon he climbed back in his boat, but without paddle in hand.
As he scraped an undercut rock on the right bank, his paddle was right
in front of him, but he didn't see it. Hand paddling didn't work well.
All the force of the river slammed his boat into the house-sized rock!
Showing Olympic-caliber leaping skills, he jumped onto the rock and
climbed to the top. His boat and camping gear disappeared downriver.

Our fearless leader Mr. Riparian finished lining his boat past the
house-sized rock, and gave chase thru what turned out to be a class 3
runout. He eventually corralled the boat. My remaining buddy threw a
50' rope and hit the stranded kayaker right on the hands. We yo-yo-ed
him to shore and he was OK. He walked down the left shore, and luckily
found his paddle in a small eddy. After the class 3, I gave him a ride
on the back of my boat, but we tipped over when turning into the eddy
where his boat rested. It seemed a miracle that he had survived.

Cable, the last major rapid, appeared to be solid class 5 at this flow.
We sniveled down the right side to the eponymous portaging cable, now
sunk too low for heavy use. Moreover we had neglected to bring pulleys.
Again contrary to guidebooks, which claim a class 5 portage, there was
an easy trail on the right, although we had to pass gear and slide boats
down a cliff to an eddy. Finally, it looked like that dental patient
would get his filling on Wednesday morning.

Several miles below Cable is the most wonderful hot-spring I've seen,
and I've seen plenty. The hot then warm water has no sulphur smell,
is clear as spring water, and makes a scenic waterfall into the river.
Too bad we didn't have another night to camp there.

Take-out was only two miles downriver. When we got there, we thought
the shuttle drivers had failed us: we did not recognize our truck,
it being covered by red-brown dirt. The headlights had caked-on mud
about an inch thick. Evidently the road between Pleasant Valley and
Three Forks isn't as good as the roads to Deep Creek or Three Forks.

At the canyon rim, we had cellphone coverage, contrary to service maps
issued by our cellphone carrier. The drive home was without incident,
except for local reports of flooding in Winnemucca, and the dentist
actually managed to get some sleep before doing that filling.

Great TR Bill.

As long as some of the regulars are still hanging around, contributing
trip reports and their years of accumulated knowledge I refuse to give
up on rbp's potential.

wrote:
As long as some of the regulars are still hanging around, contributing
trip reports and their years of accumulated knowledge I refuse to give
up on rbp's potential.

Then let me ask a question I posted on Boatertalk.com, so far unanswered.

On a recent trip I compared my Lightning Freeride to
a Carlisle RS Magic (drips most), a Werner freestyle
of unknown type (drips more) and a Lightning symmetric.
With Freeride there's virtually no dripping down the shaft.
I have no idea why. Drip rings are unnecessary!

The Lightning Freeride isn't as good as a Werner dihedral
for backstroking, but it's fine going forward.

In 2005 I see that Werner has two basic lines of non-black
paddles. (I refuse to buy black because it's easy to lose.)
There are ones with downturned blades, and ones with the
typical "freestyle" asymmetric blade shape, not downturned.

Does anyone know if the downturned models (Twist, Player,
Sidekick, in order of size) drip less down the shaft and
shed water as well as a Lightning Freeride?

THese are white water paddles you're talking of I believe. I have broken two
Werner Freestyles, Werner went to a cheaper glass some years ago ( the kind
you can fix your car with from Pep Boy's etc.) As far as dripping, it is a
wet sport! Lightning paddles are pretty tough, and wear symetrically, last
a long time of you put edging around the blades. I have an older Riot crank
shaft with nylon blades, shaft made by Lendle, toughest thing I've ever
owned.
"Bill Tuthill" wrote in message ...
wrote:
As long as some of the regulars are still hanging around, contributing
trip reports and their years of accumulated knowledge I refuse to give
up on rbp's potential.

Then let me ask a question I posted on Boatertalk.com, so far unanswered.

On a recent trip I compared my Lightning Freeride to
a Carlisle RS Magic (drips most), a Werner freestyle
of unknown type (drips more) and a Lightning symmetric.
With Freeride there's virtually no dripping down the shaft.
I have no idea why. Drip rings are unnecessary!

The Lightning Freeride isn't as good as a Werner dihedral
for backstroking, but it's fine going forward.

In 2005 I see that Werner has two basic lines of non-black
paddles. (I refuse to buy black because it's easy to lose.)
There are ones with downturned blades, and ones with the
typical "freestyle" asymmetric blade shape, not downturned.

Does anyone know if the downturned models (Twist, Player,
Sidekick, in order of size) drip less down the shaft and
shed water as well as a Lightning Freeride?

Werner didn't go to a cheaper glass. Who told you that? They're using the
same glass for the Freestyle that they use on the other paddles, just a
different lay-up for each design. As for breaking 2 paddles, you can stress
a paddle and not know it by hitting it on a rock or throwing it on the shore
or prying your boat off with it, etc... Then later on down the road it
breaks for no apparent reason; just a small hit on something will do it.
This is with all paddles, not just Werner. Some people are harder on
paddles than others and all paddles will break. They're not indestructible.

To the original poster and your question, I have absolutely no idea.

Courtney

"Grip" wrote in message
...
THese are white water paddles you're talking of I believe. I have broken
two
Werner Freestyles, Werner went to a cheaper glass some years ago ( the
kind
you can fix your car with from Pep Boy's etc.) As far as dripping, it is a
wet sport! Lightning paddles are pretty tough, and wear symetrically, last
a long time of you put edging around the blades. I have an older Riot
crank
shaft with nylon blades, shaft made by Lendle, toughest thing I've ever
owned.
"Bill Tuthill" wrote in message
...
wrote:
As long as some of the regulars are still hanging around, contributing
trip reports and their years of accumulated knowledge I refuse to give
up on rbp's potential.

Then let me ask a question I posted on Boatertalk.com, so far
unanswered.

On a recent trip I compared my Lightning Freeride to
a Carlisle RS Magic (drips most), a Werner freestyle
of unknown type (drips more) and a Lightning symmetric.
With Freeride there's virtually no dripping down the shaft.
I have no idea why. Drip rings are unnecessary!

The Lightning Freeride isn't as good as a Werner dihedral
for backstroking, but it's fine going forward.

In 2005 I see that Werner has two basic lines of non-black
paddles. (I refuse to buy black because it's easy to lose.)
There are ones with downturned blades, and ones with the
typical "freestyle" asymmetric blade shape, not downturned.

Does anyone know if the downturned models (Twist, Player,
Sidekick, in order of size) drip less down the shaft and
shed water as well as a Lightning Freeride?

Grip wrote:
These are white water paddles you're talking of I believe. I have
broken two Werner Freestyles, Werner went to a cheaper glass some
years ago ( the kind you can fix your car with from Pep Boy's etc.)
As far as dripping, it is a wet sport! Lightning paddles are pretty
tough, and wear symetrically, last a long time of you put edging
around the blades. I have an older Riot crank shaft with nylon blades,
shaft made by Lendle, toughest thing I've ever owned.

Yes whitewater, although Lightning and Werner also make touring paddles
with smaller blades. When crossing fla****er in cold weather, it's nice
to have a paddle that doesn't drip a lot: keeps the hands warmer.

How do you put edging around the blades?

Lendal paddles should be tough-- they are very heavy. Lightning paddles
used to be lighter than Werner, but Werner has lightened up.

Courtney wrote:
Werner didn't go to a cheaper glass. Who told you that? They're
using the same glass for the Freestyle that they use on the other
paddles, just a different lay-up for each design. As for breaking
2 paddles, you can stress a paddle and not know it by hitting it
on a rock or throwing it on the shore or prying your boat off with
it, etc... Then later on down the road it breaks for no apparent
reason; just a small hit on something will do it. This is with all
paddles, not just Werner. Some people are harder on paddles than
others and all paddles will break. They're not indestructible.

I've seen all types of paddles break. The current Werner shafts
seem stronger than the current Lightning shafts, but this could be
just my imagination. Lightning blades seem fragile but I've never
seen one break. I have seen a Werner Wenatchee blade break after
a horse stepped in it, but it might be old construction. There are
posts on Boatertalk implying the (less expensive) laminated blades
are more durable than Werner's high-end foam core blades.

As to blade shape, my personal opinion is that "freestyle" asymmetric
isn't worthwhile. You get almost as good performance from symmetric,
and you don't have to worry about blade orientation after a swim, or
when you want to paddle backwards into the wind. However the Freeride
(downturned asymmetric) is worthwhile. It's so much quicker dipping
into the water, and quiet coming out of the water, that it more than
compensates. I'll try to find and test a Werner Side Kick, Player,
or Twist. Werner calls them "play" versus "river running" paddles,
and makes the same distinction for (black) carbon fiber models.
That might be a misnomer because downturned asymmetric seem better
for river running also.

in article t, Courtney at
wrote on 6/2/05 5:26 PM:

Werner didn't go to a cheaper glass. Who told you that? They're using the
same glass for the Freestyle that they use on the other paddles, just a
different lay-up for each design. As for breaking 2 paddles, you can stress
a paddle and not know it by hitting it on a rock or throwing it on the shore
or prying your boat off with it, etc...

I can't even begin to describe the abuse my Werner (sea kayak) paddle has
suffered, and aside from some obvious scarring on the shaft, it looks to be
in perfect condition. The blades don't even look used, but they've been
punished to extremes! No complaints, but I would say that it does drip a
lot. Obviously it is the shape of the blade that does this.

Keenan
gokayaking.ca

I was told by a Werner rep about the glass change as I was applying for
warranty coverage on padddle break # 1. Something about "S" glass and "E"
glass. Remember the old werners with the all white blades, pre freestyle
etc? They were just about indestructable. You are correct however about a
paddle taking a hit then delaminating or snapping at a later time.
"Courtney" wrote in message
nk.net...
Werner didn't go to a cheaper glass. Who told you that? They're using
the
same glass for the Freestyle that they use on the other paddles, just a
different lay-up for each design. As for breaking 2 paddles, you can
stress
a paddle and not know it by hitting it on a rock or throwing it on the
shore
or prying your boat off with it, etc... Then later on down the road it
breaks for no apparent reason; just a small hit on something will do it.
This is with all paddles, not just Werner. Some people are harder on
paddles than others and all paddles will break. They're not
indestructible.

To the original poster and your question, I have absolutely no idea.

Courtney

"Grip" wrote in message
...
THese are white water paddles you're talking of I believe. I have broken
two
Werner Freestyles, Werner went to a cheaper glass some years ago ( the
kind
you can fix your car with from Pep Boy's etc.) As far as dripping, it is
a
wet sport! Lightning paddles are pretty tough, and wear symetrically,
last
a long time of you put edging around the blades. I have an older Riot
crank
shaft with nylon blades, shaft made by Lendle, toughest thing I've ever
owned.
"Bill Tuthill" wrote in message
...
wrote:
As long as some of the regulars are still hanging around,
contributing
trip reports and their years of accumulated knowledge I refuse to
give
up on rbp's potential.

Then let me ask a question I posted on Boatertalk.com, so far
unanswered.

On a recent trip I compared my Lightning Freeride to
a Carlisle RS Magic (drips most), a Werner freestyle
of unknown type (drips more) and a Lightning symmetric.
With Freeride there's virtually no dripping down the shaft.
I have no idea why. Drip rings are unnecessary!

The Lightning Freeride isn't as good as a Werner dihedral
for backstroking, but it's fine going forward.

In 2005 I see that Werner has two basic lines of non-black
paddles. (I refuse to buy black because it's easy to lose.)
There are ones with downturned blades, and ones with the
typical "freestyle" asymmetric blade shape, not downturned.

Does anyone know if the downturned models (Twist, Player,
Sidekick, in order of size) drip less down the shaft and
shed water as well as a Lightning Freeride?

On 2-Jun-2005, Bill Tuthill wrote:

With Freeride there's virtually no dripping down the shaft.
I have no idea why. Drip rings are unnecessary!

I suspect that this is due to the shape of the blade - especially
the curvature around the shoulder near the root of the blade.
If the blade is thin enough and the curve is tight enough, the water
will probably not be able to stay stuck to the blade and keep flowing
down the shaft - it'll drop off.

I have a paddle with a vaguely similar behavior, but one that I don't
like. The water breaks off the blade at the shoulder and then hits
the shaft where my hands are - past the drip rings. It's a wet
paddle and the drip rings are little help. I've been tempted to
shave the blade shoulders to try to get it to drip differently.

Mike