Doug,

I have no problem with the Dali Lama, The Emperor of Japan, or the lunatic
on the street communicating with God. Except for the lunatic, they will
have a large number of people waiting in line to "pay their respects".

The institution of the Papal Office has enormous power, the same as "the
bully pulpit" of the US presidency. The way the person handles the power
will determine their legacy.

I disagreed with many of the policies of Bill Clinton, but when he dies he
will have many people standing in line "to pay their respects". While
Clinton was not perfect, he tried to the best of his ability to make the US
and the world a better place. 50% of American's endorsed his agenda. I am
glad that our leaders are remembered for their contributions and efforts to
improve society.



"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Me" wrote in message
...
The Catholic Church, along with every organized religion, have situations
in their history that wish they could forget. There have been evil
people who have tainted the reputations of every organized religion, yet
the major religions do provide excellent guidelines for personal and
social happiness.

Even lately, the Vatican has danced when certain aspects of recent history
have been questioned.


Pope John Paul II was not perfect, but his legacy as a decent strong
leader who made a positive impact on Catholics and Non-Catholics will be
remembered.

Actually, I think he was cool. This is not about him personally. I'm
especially amazed at much of what he did while still in Poland, and I wish
Martin Luther King had been around to see it. The two of them would've
seen eye to eye, as far as resisting evil and embarrassing those who
believe they're powerful.

However, you might want to think about this: Popes believe (loosely,
perhaps) that they have a special relationship or connection to god. So do
the emperor of Japan and the Dalai Lama. How do you feel about this?
Now....how do you feel about "civilians" who think god talks to them? What
if your wife says the same thing? How about an odd looking homeless person
ranting on a street corner? If you believe every religious person has the
same ability to communicate with god, then logically, you cannot point to
the pope as someone special. He's no different than the guy with the
biggest funny hat at an Elks club. He just got lucky.

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"John H" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 18:51:52 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:


"John H" wrote in message
news:0t8851t90nglhr3dn9c1d7nrnv4anhjqnd@4ax .com...
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 17:49:47 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:


"John H" wrote in message

The Church condones the 'rhythm method' as an acceptable method
of birth
control.

Who gives a ****? Seriously....what sort of person orders his or
her life
based on advice from a huge club made up of people who've sworn off
marriage
& sex (except with young boys)?


Well Doug, a few billion Catholics, that's who. Now let me give the
rest
of your
post the attention it deserves.

So, in other words, a few billion people take family planning advice
from
men who've sworn off family life. I understand now. That's like going
to a
podiatrist for heart problems.


PS. If you want to know who may give a ****, turn on CNN, NBC, CBS,
etc. You'll
get the idea.

Yes. A million people viewing a dead guy who's supposed to have his
own red phone to god. And, they're waiting about 24 hours to see the
body. To that, I offer what many mothers used to say: "Just because
your friends do something stupid doesn't mean YOU have to."

You never attended a wake, Doug?


Don't be a smartass. Nobody's wake merits a 24 hour wait. Nobody.
Period.

People line up to pay respect to the deceased. If old man Curmudgeon
passes away and nobody attends his wake, that's understandable. If 1
million people line up to pay respects to one of the World's most decent
people, that's understandable too.

He was one of the most recognized people in the World, and touched more
lives in 25 years than this entire newsgroup combined will in our entire
lives.


I wonder why Doug is so upset over this? Is it because over 1 billion
people disagree with him or because he considers his opinion the one all
should abide by?

There is still a lot of anti- Catholic hatred out there.



This reminds me of some folks here giving their opinion of boats and
putting down others who disagree with it.. (boating related connection)

You're talking about individual people who have value. I'm referring to
institutions which have infections that are ignored, and therefore condoned.

"Me" wrote in message
...
Doug,

I have no problem with the Dali Lama, The Emperor of Japan, or the lunatic
on the street communicating with God. Except for the lunatic, they will
have a large number of people waiting in line to "pay their respects".

The institution of the Papal Office has enormous power, the same as "the
bully pulpit" of the US presidency. The way the person handles the power
will determine their legacy.

I disagreed with many of the policies of Bill Clinton, but when he dies he
will have many people standing in line "to pay their respects". While
Clinton was not perfect, he tried to the best of his ability to make the
US and the world a better place. 50% of American's endorsed his agenda.
I am glad that our leaders are remembered for their contributions and
efforts to improve society.



"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Me" wrote in message
...
The Catholic Church, along with every organized religion, have
situations in their history that wish they could forget. There have
been evil people who have tainted the reputations of every organized
religion, yet the major religions do provide excellent guidelines for
personal and social happiness.

Even lately, the Vatican has danced when certain aspects of recent
history have been questioned.


Pope John Paul II was not perfect, but his legacy as a decent strong
leader who made a positive impact on Catholics and Non-Catholics will be
remembered.

Actually, I think he was cool. This is not about him personally. I'm
especially amazed at much of what he did while still in Poland, and I
wish Martin Luther King had been around to see it. The two of them
would've seen eye to eye, as far as resisting evil and embarrassing those
who believe they're powerful.

However, you might want to think about this: Popes believe (loosely,
perhaps) that they have a special relationship or connection to god. So
do the emperor of Japan and the Dalai Lama. How do you feel about this?
Now....how do you feel about "civilians" who think god talks to them?
What if your wife says the same thing? How about an odd looking homeless
person ranting on a street corner? If you believe every religious person
has the same ability to communicate with god, then logically, you cannot
point to the pope as someone special. He's no different than the guy with
the biggest funny hat at an Elks club. He just got lucky.

I am not a catholic, but I have known many good Catholics. The Catholic
Church and Pope John Paul II formally apologized to the Jewish people for
ignoring their plight during WW II. The Catholic Church has instituted a
formal procedure to get rid of any pedophiles who are using the church to
prey on children. The actions of a few priest does not diminish the
excellent work done by the vast majority of priests. The fact that ignorant
bishops believed they could "cure" pedophiles through counseling and
religious works, should not minimize the good the Catholic Church has done
for society.

In the Protestant religions, there have been pedophiles who have molested
children. I went to a Presbyterian Church where a music minister was found
guilty of molesting kids. After the fact, we found out this was not the
first time. I went to a school where two teachers were found guilty of
having sex with underage kids. in the past there were school principals who
would try to quietly get rid of teachers who were guilty of inappropriate
behavior with students.

The actions of a few priest. music ministers, boy scout leaders or school
teachers should not diminish the excellent work of the majority.




"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
You're talking about individual people who have value. I'm referring to
institutions which have infections that are ignored, and therefore
condoned.

"Me" wrote in message
...
Doug,

I have no problem with the Dali Lama, The Emperor of Japan, or the
lunatic on the street communicating with God. Except for the lunatic,
they will have a large number of people waiting in line to "pay their
respects".

The institution of the Papal Office has enormous power, the same as "the
bully pulpit" of the US presidency. The way the person handles the power
will determine their legacy.

I disagreed with many of the policies of Bill Clinton, but when he dies
he will have many people standing in line "to pay their respects". While
Clinton was not perfect, he tried to the best of his ability to make the
US and the world a better place. 50% of American's endorsed his agenda.
I am glad that our leaders are remembered for their contributions and
efforts to improve society.



"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Me" wrote in message
...
The Catholic Church, along with every organized religion, have
situations in their history that wish they could forget. There have
been evil people who have tainted the reputations of every organized
religion, yet the major religions do provide excellent guidelines for
personal and social happiness.

Even lately, the Vatican has danced when certain aspects of recent
history have been questioned.


Pope John Paul II was not perfect, but his legacy as a decent strong
leader who made a positive impact on Catholics and Non-Catholics will
be remembered.

Actually, I think he was cool. This is not about him personally. I'm
especially amazed at much of what he did while still in Poland, and I
wish Martin Luther King had been around to see it. The two of them
would've seen eye to eye, as far as resisting evil and embarrassing
those who believe they're powerful.

However, you might want to think about this: Popes believe (loosely,
perhaps) that they have a special relationship or connection to god. So
do the emperor of Japan and the Dalai Lama. How do you feel about this?
Now....how do you feel about "civilians" who think god talks to them?
What if your wife says the same thing? How about an odd looking homeless
person ranting on a street corner? If you believe every religious person
has the same ability to communicate with god, then logically, you cannot
point to the pope as someone special. He's no different than the guy
with the biggest funny hat at an Elks club. He just got lucky.

And, the millions of people plunged into poverty because of the ban on
contraception? Hmmm.....that continues to this day, although I'm sure it's
digested with a wink and a nod by some people.

Disclaimer, for better understanding: I don't believe in joining clubs. Very
bad, whether it's a church or the boy scouts, or whatever.

"Me" wrote in message
...
I am not a catholic, but I have known many good Catholics. The Catholic
Church and Pope John Paul II formally apologized to the Jewish people for
ignoring their plight during WW II. The Catholic Church has instituted a
formal procedure to get rid of any pedophiles who are using the church to
prey on children. The actions of a few priest does not diminish the
excellent work done by the vast majority of priests. The fact that
ignorant bishops believed they could "cure" pedophiles through counseling
and religious works, should not minimize the good the Catholic Church has
done for society.

In the Protestant religions, there have been pedophiles who have molested
children. I went to a Presbyterian Church where a music minister was
found guilty of molesting kids. After the fact, we found out this was not
the first time. I went to a school where two teachers were found guilty
of having sex with underage kids. in the past there were school
principals who would try to quietly get rid of teachers who were guilty of
inappropriate behavior with students.

The actions of a few priest. music ministers, boy scout leaders or school
teachers should not diminish the excellent work of the majority.




"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
You're talking about individual people who have value. I'm referring to
institutions which have infections that are ignored, and therefore
condoned.

"Me" wrote in message
...
Doug,

I have no problem with the Dali Lama, The Emperor of Japan, or the
lunatic on the street communicating with God. Except for the lunatic,
they will have a large number of people waiting in line to "pay their
respects".

The institution of the Papal Office has enormous power, the same as "the
bully pulpit" of the US presidency. The way the person handles the
power will determine their legacy.

I disagreed with many of the policies of Bill Clinton, but when he dies
he will have many people standing in line "to pay their respects".
While Clinton was not perfect, he tried to the best of his ability to
make the US and the world a better place. 50% of American's endorsed
his agenda. I am glad that our leaders are remembered for their
contributions and efforts to improve society.



"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Me" wrote in message
...
The Catholic Church, along with every organized religion, have
situations in their history that wish they could forget. There have
been evil people who have tainted the reputations of every organized
religion, yet the major religions do provide excellent guidelines for
personal and social happiness.

Even lately, the Vatican has danced when certain aspects of recent
history have been questioned.


Pope John Paul II was not perfect, but his legacy as a decent strong
leader who made a positive impact on Catholics and Non-Catholics will
be remembered.

Actually, I think he was cool. This is not about him personally. I'm
especially amazed at much of what he did while still in Poland, and I
wish Martin Luther King had been around to see it. The two of them
would've seen eye to eye, as far as resisting evil and embarrassing
those who believe they're powerful.

However, you might want to think about this: Popes believe (loosely,
perhaps) that they have a special relationship or connection to god. So
do the emperor of Japan and the Dalai Lama. How do you feel about this?
Now....how do you feel about "civilians" who think god talks to them?
What if your wife says the same thing? How about an odd looking
homeless person ranting on a street corner? If you believe every
religious person has the same ability to communicate with god, then
logically, you cannot point to the pope as someone special. He's no
different than the guy with the biggest funny hat at an Elks club. He
just got lucky.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
I have no problem with them doing that. However, I can still question
their judgement, not just for standing in line for so long to see a dead
body, but also in contributing their time, attention, spirits and money
to an organization (the Catholic church)

I wouldn't do it.

which, as any educated person knows, has a reputation that's dubious, at
best.

I'd clarify that to say "dubious, at worst". Then I might agree with
you. The Catholic church has done far more good than bad in the last
couple of centuries.

Yeah...as long as you weren't a native of a country that already had a
perfectly fine spiritual tradition to begin with.

Example?

"P.Fritz" wrote in message
...

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"John H" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 18:51:52 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:


"John H" wrote in message
news:0t8851t90nglhr3dn9c1d7nrnv4anhjqnd@4a x.com...
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 17:49:47 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:


"John H" wrote in message

The Church condones the 'rhythm method' as an acceptable method
of birth
control.

Who gives a ****? Seriously....what sort of person orders his or
her life
based on advice from a huge club made up of people who've sworn
off
marriage
& sex (except with young boys)?


Well Doug, a few billion Catholics, that's who. Now let me give
the rest
of your
post the attention it deserves.

So, in other words, a few billion people take family planning advice
from
men who've sworn off family life. I understand now. That's like
going to a
podiatrist for heart problems.


PS. If you want to know who may give a ****, turn on CNN, NBC, CBS,
etc. You'll
get the idea.

Yes. A million people viewing a dead guy who's supposed to have his
own red phone to god. And, they're waiting about 24 hours to see the
body. To that, I offer what many mothers used to say: "Just because
your friends do something stupid doesn't mean YOU have to."

You never attended a wake, Doug?


Don't be a smartass. Nobody's wake merits a 24 hour wait. Nobody.
Period.

People line up to pay respect to the deceased. If old man Curmudgeon
passes away and nobody attends his wake, that's understandable. If 1
million people line up to pay respects to one of the World's most decent
people, that's understandable too.

He was one of the most recognized people in the World, and touched more
lives in 25 years than this entire newsgroup combined will in our entire
lives.


I wonder why Doug is so upset over this? Is it because over 1 billion
people disagree with him or because he considers his opinion the one all
should abide by?

There is still a lot of anti- Catholic hatred out there.

Cool! I've never been part of a persecuted group before. Do I get Federal
assistance now?

NYOB,
So you are a Catholic, I knew there was a reason I didn't like you. ; )


"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"P.Fritz" wrote in message
...

"JimH" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"John H" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 18:51:52 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:


"John H" wrote in message
news:0t8851t90nglhr3dn9c1d7nrnv4anhjqnd@4 ax.com...
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 17:49:47 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:


"John H" wrote in message

The Church condones the 'rhythm method' as an acceptable method
of birth
control.

Who gives a ****? Seriously....what sort of person orders his or
her life
based on advice from a huge club made up of people who've sworn
off
marriage
& sex (except with young boys)?


Well Doug, a few billion Catholics, that's who. Now let me give
the rest
of your
post the attention it deserves.

So, in other words, a few billion people take family planning
advice from
men who've sworn off family life. I understand now. That's like
going to a
podiatrist for heart problems.


PS. If you want to know who may give a ****, turn on CNN, NBC, CBS,
etc. You'll
get the idea.

Yes. A million people viewing a dead guy who's supposed to have his
own red phone to god. And, they're waiting about 24 hours to see the
body. To that, I offer what many mothers used to say: "Just because
your friends do something stupid doesn't mean YOU have to."

You never attended a wake, Doug?


Don't be a smartass. Nobody's wake merits a 24 hour wait. Nobody.
Period.

People line up to pay respect to the deceased. If old man Curmudgeon
passes away and nobody attends his wake, that's understandable. If 1
million people line up to pay respects to one of the World's most
decent people, that's understandable too.

He was one of the most recognized people in the World, and touched more
lives in 25 years than this entire newsgroup combined will in our
entire lives.


I wonder why Doug is so upset over this? Is it because over 1 billion
people disagree with him or because he considers his opinion the one all
should abide by?

There is still a lot of anti- Catholic hatred out there.

Cool! I've never been part of a persecuted group before. Do I get Federal
assistance now?

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
I have no problem with them doing that. However, I can still question
their judgement, not just for standing in line for so long to see a dead
body, but also in contributing their time, attention, spirits and money
to an organization (the Catholic church)

I wouldn't do it.

which, as any educated person knows, has a reputation that's dubious,
at best.

I'd clarify that to say "dubious, at worst". Then I might agree with
you. The Catholic church has done far more good than bad in the last
couple of centuries.

Yeah...as long as you weren't a native of a country that already had a
perfectly fine spiritual tradition to begin with.

Example?



Don't be an asshole. You went to school. You're aware of examples.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
I have no problem with them doing that. However, I can still question
their judgement, not just for standing in line for so long to see a
dead body, but also in contributing their time, attention, spirits and
money to an organization (the Catholic church)

I wouldn't do it.

which, as any educated person knows, has a reputation that's dubious,
at best.

I'd clarify that to say "dubious, at worst". Then I might agree with
you. The Catholic church has done far more good than bad in the last
couple of centuries.

Yeah...as long as you weren't a native of a country that already had a
perfectly fine spiritual tradition to begin with.

Example?



Don't be an asshole. You went to school. You're aware of examples.

I just want you to give me examples of what *you* consider to be "perfectly
fine spiritual traditions". Sacrificial virgins? Cannibalism? Polygamy?